Entitled to any payment settlement if dismissed based on performance?

ananth1978 · 24-07-2014 05:40AM #1

I've been with a company for almost 7 yrs, have received positive ratings for the initial 5 yrs, took a maternity break of 8 months. When I returned, my work focus was changed into a different (but relevant) direction. I haven't been able to cope-up with it for the last 18 months. I've received average / below average reviews during this time.

Now I've been placed on a "performance improvement plan" (PIP) for 3 months. I've been assigned targets with a 3 month deadline and told that if I don't meet them, the company can terminate me. This was given to me in writing and I was asked to sign on it, to comply, which I did.

1. Could I be terminated after 1 such PIP?
2. I maybe asked to resign at the end of 3 months. Should I resign or ask to be terminated?
3. Am I entitled to any redundancy payment (though its a termination based on performance), besides the 1 month notice?
4. Does Statutory Redundancy of 1 week + 7 yrs x 2 weeks = 15 weeks, apply even for those who are dismissed / asked to resign based on performance.

Please advice

Stheno · 24-07-2014 05:44AM

ananth1978 wrote: »

I've been with a company for almost 7 yrs, have received positive ratings for the initial 5 yrs, took a maternity break of 8 months. When I returned, my work focus was changed into a different (but relevant) direction. I haven't been able to cope-up with it for the last 18 months. I've received average / below average reviews during this time.

Now I've been placed on a "performance improvement plan" (PIP) for 3 months. I've been assigned targets with a 3 month deadline and told that if I don't meet them, the company can terminate me. This was given to me in writing and I was asked to sign on it, to comply, which I did.

1. Could I be terminated after 1 such PIP?
2. I maybe asked to resign at the end of 3 months. Should I resign or ask to be terminated?
3. Am I entitled to any redundancy payment (though its a termination based on performance), besides the 1 month notice?
4. Does Statutory Redundancy of 1 week + 7 yrs x 2 weeks = 15 weeks, apply even for those who are dismissed / asked to resign based on performance.

Please advice

yes you could be terminated, and no you would not be entitled to redundancy. You would be let go due to non performance, not because the role is redundant

No Pants · 24-07-2014 05:50AM

You've entered the company's disciplinary process. You have been given performance targets to meet and 3 months to meet them. This you have agreed to. You can resign at any time, giving the proper notice. If you do not meet the targets set in the PIP, the company could decide to take it further, based on their own disciplinary process. I suggest that you familiarise yourself with that process, also that you receive regular reviews of your progress against the PIP over the three months, say every week or every two weeks.

ananth1978 · 24-07-2014 05:56AM

@ Stheno @No Pants Thanks for the inputs. Yes, am following up on the process. I'm not sure how it'll pan out at the end of 3 months. Just wanted to be prepared for the worst, financially, and hence wanted to check if I'm entitled to anything for the 7 yrs I've worked here.

Is it better to resign / be dismissed? I know that its better from a social welfare standpoint to get "jobseeker's benefit".

No Pants · 24-07-2014 05:58AM

ananth1978 wrote: »

Is it better to resign / be dismissed? I know that its better from a social welfare standpoint to get "jobseeker's benefit".

If you resign, you probably won't get JSB for at least nine weeks. The best option is to simply meet the performance objectives that you've agreed to meet. Then, if you still feel that the job isn't for you, go looking for another one.

ANXIOUS · 24-07-2014 06:16AM

Do you feel the targets are achievable? Is something an under lying problem, that you haven't been able to get up to speed?

ananth1978 · 24-07-2014 07:16AM

I was working in a different area of work for the initial 5 years, for which I was hired, and where I got good reviews. Prior to and during maternity, there were layoffs and some people who did not have the skills to get into the new area of work were let go. I was kept back as I had worked in it for 2 years prior to joining this company.

It has been 5.5 yrs since I worked in this area and that's a long period of time in my field, mainly because I'll be considered as someone with total 9yrs exp and compared with peers of similar experience / designation. However, I've been in this area for only 3.5 yrs. So when it comes to fitting the curve, I'm at the bottom and so they feel I'm not performing to expectations.

Irrespective of how hard I try, I'm going to be in the bottom of the curve.

No Pants · 24-07-2014 07:38AM

ananth1978 wrote: »

It has been 5.5 yrs since I worked in this area and that's a long period of time in my field, mainly because I'll be considered as someone with total 9yrs exp and compared with peers of similar experience / designation. However, I've been in this area for only 3.5 yrs. So when it comes to fitting the curve, I'm at the bottom and so they feel I'm not performing to expectations.

Irrespective of how hard I try, I'm going to be in the bottom of the curve.

Have you mentioned this to them or broached the idea of training/support?

The targets agreed to should be achievable or the PIP is a farce.

_Brian · 24-07-2014 02:02PM

ananth1978 wrote: »

I was working in a different area of work for the initial 5 years, for which I was hired, and where I got good reviews. Prior to and during maternity, there were layoffs and some people who did not have the skills to get into the new area of work were let go. I was kept back as I had worked in it for 2 years prior to joining this company.

It has been 5.5 yrs since I worked in this area and that's a long period of time in my field, mainly because I'll be considered as someone with total 9yrs exp and compared with peers of similar experience / designation. However, I've been in this area for only 3.5 yrs. So when it comes to fitting the curve, I'm at the bottom and so they feel I'm not performing to expectations.

Irrespective of how hard I try, I'm going to be in the bottom of the curve.

No Pants wrote: »

Have you mentioned this to them or broached the idea of training/support?

The targets agreed to should be achievable or the PIP is a farce.

I've delivered many PIP's in my time and the setting of the targets is crucial.. The targets should be set based on what would deliver a regular employee a satisfactory appraisal rating. Being on a PIP you cannot be expected to perform equal to employees who are exceeding or outstanding in the appraisal system.. If they are doing this then they are set on managing you out the door !!
in addition, we had a clause where if an employee fell below successful in the following 4 bi-annual reviews then they automatically went back onto a PIP.

No Pants · 24-07-2014 02:09PM

_Brian wrote: »

we had a clause where if an employee fell below successful in the following 4 bi-annual reviews then they automatically went back onto a PIP.

My workplace has something similar I believe. If you achieve a below par rating in two annual reviews in a row, you should go onto a PIP.

_Brian · 24-07-2014 02:29PM

No Pants wrote: »

My workplace has something similar I believe. If you achieve a below par rating in two annual reviews in a row, you should go onto a PIP.

Yes we had a similar policy but not all managers adhered to it...

Contributor 2013 · 24-07-2014 05:42PM

Hi Anath,

To answer your questions;
1) Yes
2) In my own personal view it doesn't actually matter, however resignation would look better than termination going forward.
3) No
4) No

Again from a personal standpoint;

It sort of sound's like you may have given up to me. Don't do that.

I think the first thing you need to do is to point out to your manger/employer that it has been five and half years since you practiced in said field and you've had no training to keep your skills up to date since then. Request training, doesn't have to be external can be from a peer if there is one doing the same duties. (Do this during some sort of formal meeting where it is being recorded - if you have some sort of regular meeting with a supervisor/manager etc)

In regard to the fact you agreed the targets set for you in performance....You're pretty much up the creek there & I'm inclined to agree with previous poster, do you very best to meet the targets then if things still aren't working out, start looking for a new job.

But yes, ask for training, do your best to achieve the goals set and see how you go.

To terminate someone's employment after a process like "Performance improvement plan" at the first attempt does seem harsh, but you should take a good look at your company's employee handbook (as previous poster has said) with particular regard to the disciplinary process/performance reviews. It will be in there; the following steps in regard to not achieving goals set in a P.I.P

Best of luck and keep us updated.

Cont.

the_syco · 24-07-2014 06:28PM

ananth1978 wrote: »

Is it better to resign / be dismissed? I know that its better from a social welfare standpoint to get "jobseeker's benefit".

Really narrows down to how good a chance you think you have of getting a job in your field of expertise. If good, the resign route may be better, but if there are no jobs going in your area, then the dismissed route will get you the dole faster.

Mrs OBumble · 24-07-2014 07:49PM

There's no entitlement, but one way that this can play out is that you agree to resign, in exchange for a payout.

This avoids the company having to go through the pain of performance managing you and then sack you, and the risk of you suing them if they get something procedurally wrong, or perhaps if they did not give you adequate support upon your return from maternity leave.

If you want to go down this route, then I'd recommend finding a good employment solicitor and discussing options with them.

It would mean that you would not be eligible for the dole for 9 weeks, but that may be well worth it depending on what you negotiate.

All that said - have you identified why you're not able to cope with the job? Are other people coping? What can you learn from them? And how come it has taken so long (18 months) to get to this stage?

And of course - what are you long term work goals? What will you do next if you lose / leave this job? (I understand you may not want to say here due to the nature of the field ... I don't really care what the answer is either, it's you that needs to think about it, not me!)

_Brian · 24-07-2014 09:44PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There's no entitlement, but one way that this can play out is that you agree to resign, in exchange for a payout.

This avoids the company having to go through the pain of performance managing you and then sack you, and the risk of you suing them if they get something procedurally wrong, or perhaps if they did not give you adequate support upon your return from maternity leave.

If you want to go down this route, then I'd recommend finding a good employment solicitor and discussing options with them.

It would mean that you would not be eligible for the dole for 9 weeks, but that may be well worth it depending on what you negotiate.

All that said - have you identified why you're not able to cope with the job? Are other people coping? What can you learn from them? And how come it has taken so long (18 months) to get to this stage?

And of course - what are you long term work goals? What will you do next if you lose / leave this job? (I understand you may not want to say here due to the nature of the field ... I don't really care what the answer is either, it's you that needs to think about it, not me!)

But does this happen ??
I've seen many people resign, abandon their jobs, be sacked or even managed out the door.. But never came across a case where a company paid a poorly performing employee to just leave. It doesn't say much for a company if they don't trust themselves to terminate an employee properly.
From my experience most people survive the PIP process, those who haven't TBH management didn't want them to !

Stheno · 24-07-2014 09:50PM

_Brian wrote: »

But does this happen ??
I've seen many people resign, abandon their jobs, be sacked or even managed out the door.. But never came across a case where a company paid a poorly performing employee to just leave. It doesn't say much for a company if they don't trust themselves to terminate an employee properly.
From my experience most people survive the PIP process, those who haven't TBH management didn't want them to !

I've also seen it happen tbh, usually where an employee is truculent, and it's easier to pay them off than go through the motions of sacking them

Eoin · 24-07-2014 10:05PM

_Brian wrote: »

But never came across a case where a company paid a poorly performing employee to just leave.

It's probably quite easy to do without making it common knowledge. Someone resigns; and they're put on garden leave for their notice period, plus a little extra.

_Brian wrote: »

It doesn't say much for a company if they don't trust themselves to terminate an employee properly.
From my experience most people survive the PIP process, those who haven't TBH management didn't want them to !

The LRC is full of cases where people were let go for a good reason, but some little slip up was made in the process.

Also, the process of managing someone out is simply unpleasant for all concerned, and would probably take far longer than just giving someone a few months' wages instead.

ananth1978 · 25-07-2014 10:27AM

Thanks a ton for all your inputs. I'm doing my best to meet the targets set in PIP. To be very frank, the pressure of being in PIP is getting to me. I'm definitely not a person who excels under stress. I always feel that I can really do well if not under PIP.

PIP works the same way here. There are people who've been in PIP and come out of it, but it was 3-5 yrs ago when they used to put the bottom 10% under bad reviews by default. Hasn't happened in the last 2 yrs. Its a small team so we get to know.

As far as re-training is concerned, its something that has to be learnt on the job. I'm in the semiconductor industry and what one expects at a certain level of experience has to be attained only by exposure and everyday learning. The trainings only focus on fundamentals, you only learn the nuances by extensive experience and exposure. The remaining members in my group have had some work in the current area every 1-2 yrs, unlike me who was away from this area for 5 yrs. Others, are coping up, but showing that they've other excellent skills - scripting.. etc and adding value to the team. That's not my strong suit. Also, they've got in some hardcore engineers over the last 2 yrs who have PhDs in this field and 0-2yrs grads are do so much better than me and many others in my team.

Long term goals: I was planning on moving on to a different area in semiconductors where my past experience is of use. Even if I get out of PIP, based on the nature of work, I'm always going to be in the bottom half. So its best I look at other options.

There are almost no jobs here. So I've options outside Ireland which I'm going to pursue. Also, other companies in other geographies look at things differently. My experience is treated differently.

Resignation for Payout: I can only consider this if it is offered to me by the company. Could I insist on getting dismissed, just because I can get jobseeker benefit immediately and not lose out for 9 weeks? Could I say, I won't resign?

I'm not so worried about dismissal as I've good references and my managers can give me a recommendation. Plus I can make a case whereby I did it to not miss out of 9 weeks of JB.

My original questions was about entitlement for being let go based on performance. I guess its clear I'm entitled to nothing. I just hope that if it does happen in 3 months, then my company would consider the initial 5 years of job done well and provide some financial compensation. Time will tell.

Eoin · 25-07-2014 10:35AM

ananth1978 wrote: »

Resignation for Payout: I can only consider this if it is offered to me by the company. Could I insist on getting dismissed, just because I can get jobseeker benefit immediately and not lose out for 9 weeks? Could I say, I won't resign?

Absolutely - there is no obligation on you to resign. You need to weigh up the pros and cons, but if you feel that you're better off by being dismissed, then make them do it.

How far into the 3 months are you?

_Brian · 25-07-2014 10:36AM

ananth1978 wrote: »

Thanks a ton for all your inputs. I'm doing my best to meet the targets set in PIP. To be very frank, the pressure of being in PIP is getting to me. I'm definitely not a person who excels under stress. I always feel that I can really do well if not under PIP.

PIP works the same way here. There are people who've been in PIP and come out of it, but it was 3-5 yrs ago when they used to put the bottom 10% under bad reviews by default. Hasn't happened in the last 2 yrs. Its a small team so we get to know.

As far as re-training is concerned, its something that has to be learnt on the job. I'm in the semiconductor industry and what one expects at a certain level of experience has to be attained only by exposure and everyday learning. The trainings only focus on fundamentals, you only learn the nuances by extensive experience and exposure. The remaining members in my group have had some work in the current area every 1-2 yrs, unlike me who was away from this area for 5 yrs. Others, are coping up, but showing that they've other excellent skills - scripting.. etc and adding value to the team. That's not my strong suit. Also, they've got in some hardcore engineers over the last 2 yrs who have PhDs in this field and 0-2yrs grads are do so much better than me and many others in my team.

Long term goals: I was planning on moving on to a different area in semiconductors where my past experience is of use. Even if I get out of PIP, based on the nature of work, I'm always going to be in the bottom half. So its best I look at other options.

There are almost no jobs here. So I've options outside Ireland which I'm going to pursue. Also, other companies in other geographies look at things differently. My experience is treated differently.

Resignation for Payout: I can only consider this if it is offered to me by the company. Could I insist on getting dismissed, just because I can get jobseeker benefit immediately and not lose out for 9 weeks? Could I say, I won't resign?

I'm not so worried about dismissal as I've good references and my managers can give me a recommendation. Plus I can make a case whereby I did it to not miss out of 9 weeks of JB.

My original questions was about entitlement for being let go based on performance. I guess its clear I'm entitled to nothing. I just hope that if it does happen in 3 months, then my company would consider the initial 5 years of job done well and provide some financial compensation. Time will tell.

How about Grades, do make sure to understand the expectations for your Grade, its likely that these Phd folks will be on differing grades so you shouldn't be in direct competition as regarding ranking in annual reviews.

Compare your grade expectations to those set out in your PIP, as I said before the expectations in your PIP should not exceed those set out for being successful at your particular grade. The goal of a PIP is to make you a successful employee not an outstanding one.

Have you an ERS as part of HR ?

ananth1978 · 25-07-2014 10:37AM

2 more months to go

ananth1978 · 25-07-2014 10:42AM

The PHDs are probably on a lower grade than mine, bcoz they are fresh grads. My manager is probably thinking "0-2yr grads are achieving so much" and what I'm able to do with 8 yrs of total exp.

irishguy1983 · 25-07-2014 08:32PM

ananth1978 wrote: »

Thanks a ton for all your inputs. I'm doing my best to meet the targets set in PIP. To be very frank, the pressure of being in PIP is getting to me. I'm definitely not a person who excels under stress. I always feel that I can really do well if not under PIP.

PIP works the same way here. There are people who've been in PIP and come out of it, but it was 3-5 yrs ago when they used to put the bottom 10% under bad reviews by default. Hasn't happened in the last 2 yrs. Its a small team so we get to know.

As far as re-training is concerned, its something that has to be learnt on the job. I'm in the semiconductor industry and what one expects at a certain level of experience has to be attained only by exposure and everyday learning. The trainings only focus on fundamentals, you only learn the nuances by extensive experience and exposure. The remaining members in my group have had some work in the current area every 1-2 yrs, unlike me who was away from this area for 5 yrs. Others, are coping up, but showing that they've other excellent skills - scripting.. etc and adding value to the team. That's not my strong suit. Also, they've got in some hardcore engineers over the last 2 yrs who have PhDs in this field and 0-2yrs grads are do so much better than me and many others in my team.

Long term goals: I was planning on moving on to a different area in semiconductors where my past experience is of use. Even if I get out of PIP, based on the nature of work, I'm always going to be in the bottom half. So its best I look at other options.

There are almost no jobs here. So I've options outside Ireland which I'm going to pursue. Also, other companies in other geographies look at things differently. My experience is treated differently.

Resignation for Payout: I can only consider this if it is offered to me by the company. Could I insist on getting dismissed, just because I can get jobseeker benefit immediately and not lose out for 9 weeks? Could I say, I won't resign?

I'm not so worried about dismissal as I've good references and my managers can give me a recommendation. Plus I can make a case whereby I did it to not miss out of 9 weeks of JB.

My original questions was about entitlement for being let go based on performance. I guess its clear I'm entitled to nothing. I just hope that if it does happen in 3 months, then my company would consider the initial 5 years of job done well and provide some financial compensation. Time will tell.

Not sure if it helps but I hear ya. I'd be the same too - putting me on a PIP would actually make me perform 10 times worse unfortunately.

Have no worthwhile advice on the actual issue - just popping into say I understand how you might be feeling emotionally speaking

mrsbyrne · 26-07-2014 12:39PM

Just wanted to make you all aware that being sacked can also result in disqualification from JSB.

irishguy1983 · 26-07-2014 03:23PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Just wanted to make you all aware that being sacked can also result in disqualification from JSB.

Really?? Didn't know that. Can you tell us a bit more please?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 26-07-2014 07:04PM

Honestly op it sounds as if your job was redundant before you were transferred and that you were then transferred into a position that you didn't have appropriate skills or experience for, and this has shown up in your performance reviews.

Were you previously offered redundancy?

I know someone in similar situations who was dismissed for this reason but complained through employment appeals tribunal and received a small payout.

Reason being that he should have received redundancy previously and that by transferring him to a department where he didn't have skills or experience it was obvious that he would fail reviews and it was essentially constructive dismissal. Does this apply to you?

mrsbyrne · 26-07-2014 08:12PM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Really?? Didn't know that. Can you tell us a bit more please?

The 9 week disqualification can also come into play if a claimant lost their job through misconduct.
It would be up to the deciding officer on receipt of the report from the employer.
In this case I don't think it would be considered misconduct but you couldn't be sure. I recently encountered a woman fired after 7 years because, basically, despite every effort and encouragement she completely failed to learn any English.
Her bosses and colleagues jus t got tired of all the misunderstandings. She was a great worker, reliable , punctual etc but she got sacked in the end.
SW have disqualified her for 9 weeks.

ananth1978 · 26-07-2014 09:18PM

@mrsbyrne This wouldn't come under misconduct. It clearly falls in the purview of competence. If it was misconduct - Gross / Ordinary - then the employer needn't even give me notice. It can be an instant dismissal. Here, I'm put on PIP, given targets and clearly told that if I don't meet them, then I may be asked to leave.

@Ciaran - Nope. Never offered redundancy. When the direction of the group was changed (just before my pregnancy), 5-8 ppl whom they found to be a misfit were laid off and given a financial redundancy settlement.

irishguy1983 · 26-07-2014 09:38PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

The 9 week disqualification can also come into play if a claimant lost their job through misconduct.
It would be up to the deciding officer on receipt of the report from the employer.
In this case I don't think it would be considered misconduct but you couldn't be sure. I recently encountered a woman fired after 7 years because, basically, despite every effort and encouragement she completely failed to learn any English.
Her bosses and colleagues jus t got tired of all the misunderstandings. She was a great worker, reliable , punctual etc but she got sacked in the end.
SW have disqualified her for 9 weeks.

Cheers.

That sounds a bit harsh on that lady but that's the way tis going these days....

mrsbyrne · 26-07-2014 10:34PM

ananth1978 wrote: »

@mrsbyrne This wouldn't come under misconduct. It clearly falls in the purview of competence. If it was misconduct - Gross / Ordinary - then the employer needn't even give me notice. It can be an instant dismissal. Here, I'm put on PIP, given targets and clearly told that if I don't meet them, then I may be asked to leave.

@Ciaran - Nope. Never offered redundancy. When the direction of the group was changed (just before my pregnancy), 5-8 ppl whom they found to be a misfit were laid off and given a financial redundancy settlement.

I'm sorry if you thought I implied that you were being sacked for misconduct.
I only intended to point out that being sacked can also result in disqualification from JSA.

mrsbyrne · 26-07-2014 10:39PM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Cheers.

That sounds a bit harsh on that lady but that's the way tis going these days....

Ah shes put in a complaint to workplace relations re Unfair Dismissal, and she's appealing the SW disqualification but in fairness she's here 10 years and not one word of English has she got.

Entitled to any payment settlement if dismissed based on performance?

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