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The top 1% and the one to twelve ratio...

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  • #122
    Aongus Von Bismarck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    I always have to snort when I read about this supposed 1% and how they are keeping the oppressed majority down. Usually by the same chaps who extol the virtues of a hellhole like Cuba, where the 99% are truly oppressed and miserable.

    I came from an average middle-class home in rural Ireland. I now work in investment banking in Germany for a well known bank. I didn't get to where I am because I came from some elite club, or because I went to a specific school. I got here because I had drive, determination and a deep desire to succeed. Like almost all my colleagues. I made sacrifices, excelled academically and took setbacks in my stride. I now enjoy an extremely high standard of living.

    Some of those most vocal about this supposed glass ceiling would do well to apply their extraordinary skills in criticism and insight at themselves for a while.


  • #123
    dwayneshintzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


    http://deadspin.com/bill-james-calls-for-revolutionary-changes-to-the-ameri-1595361407

    Interesting link


  • #124
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    I now work in investment banking in Germany for a well known bank.
    And we're supposed to thank you for that...


  • #125
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And we're supposed to thank you for that...

    I think the point is that most people who earn decent salaries have got there by the sweat of their own efforts.

    It would seem unfair to limit their earning potential by the application of some arbitrary formula.

    I would tend to agree @Aongus Von Bismarck - there seems to be an attitude in Ireland that if you are earning a decent salary you
    (a) don't deserve it
    (b) you were lucky and / or were gifted the position because of family or school connections.

    Usually when I encounter that type of begrudgery I respond that it is dead easy to get my job - first, you get yourself a decent Leaving Cert, then work any job you can get through university - get an entry level job in your chosen area then squeeze every opportunity to learn and profit from other people's experience.....

    ......oh, and invest in yourself - spend some of your money (and borrow if you have to) on advanced professional qualifications......

    .....and be prepared to move - opportunities won't come to you.

    .....see? it's dead easy.


  • #126
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    No.You pay the best to get the best.


    The less meddling by governments in the private sector the better.

    LOL. That is all.


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  • #127
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    U.S.A.

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    Average Worker Compensation$34,645



    LINK


  • #128
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And we're supposed to thank you for that...
    I'd say he couldn't care less if you thanked him or not. At the end of the day he's working for an investment bank in Germany and you're not.


  • #129
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I'd say he couldn't care less if you thanked him or not. At the end of the day he's working for an investment bank in Germany and you're not.
    Why, are you assuming I am poor?
    Just because the poor don't agree with inequality doesn't mean only the poor do.


  • #130
    Aongus Von Bismarck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why, are you assuming I am poor?
    Just because the poor don't agree with inequality doesn't mean only the poor do.

    I'm not hugely in favour of inequality myself. My drive to work in the 5-Series wouldn't be made better by the sight of shoeless plebs begging at street corners. Germany is a progressive social democracy, as is Ireland, and most of their respective citizens are happy to contribute via income tax.

    I just don't see how inequality can be solved by bringing those who make a very good living into a category where the most they can ever earn is 12 times what the lowest paid employee in the company makes. If such a ludicrous decision was to be made then I'd leave Europe and move to Hong Kong or Singapore.


  • #131
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why, are you assuming I am poor?
    Just because the poor don't agree with inequality doesn't mean only the poor do.
    Nope.

    And whether you agree with inequality or not is irrelevant, at the end of the day you won't change anything. Better to work in the system than against it. That's the point I'm making.


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  • #132
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    I'm not hugely in favour of inequality myself. My drive to work in the 5-Series wouldn't be made better by the sight of shoeless plebs begging at street corners. Germany is a progressive social democracy, as is Ireland, and most of their respective citizens are happy to contribute via income tax.

    I just don't see how inequality can be solved by bringing those who make a very good living into a category where the most they can ever earn is 12 times what the lowest paid employee in the company makes. If such a ludicrous decision was to be made then I'd leave Europe and move to Hong Kong or Singapore.
    Yeah, but as expected, this conversation isn't about YOU, it's about society. Excuse me if I don't get too worked up about you getting on the first plane out of Europe if it's made the lot of the vast majority of the population better.


  • #133
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    I always have to snort when I read about this supposed 1% and how they are keeping the oppressed majority down. Usually by the same chaps who extol the virtues of a hellhole like Cuba, where the 99% are truly oppressed and miserable.

    I came from an average middle-class home in rural Ireland. I now work in investment banking in Germany for a well known bank. I didn't get to where I am because I came from some elite club, or because I went to a specific school. I got here because I had drive, determination and a deep desire to succeed. Like almost all my colleagues. I made sacrifices, excelled academically and took setbacks in my stride. I now enjoy an extremely high standard of living.

    Some of those most vocal about this supposed glass ceiling would do well to apply their extraordinary skills in criticism and insight at themselves for a while.

    Snort is a little OTT.



    Make no mistake, Ireland has cultural attitude problems towards unspecified higher salaries that is begrudgery but there is also another side to this too people of higher salaries often have persecution complexes where anything negative towards them is perceived as begrudgery. Just like suggesting taking entitlements from any group is difficult, so is questioning the monetary value of a person's salary. Regardless, of whether it's irrational or rational. Both groups are just bad as the other.

    I like to think of a CEO as a Steam Games Library. Do they really really need all those money or games? Likely not, but then is it really any of my business what they do with their personal lives as long as they're not harming others? Not every company is evil and exploitative. 7 figure salaries does seem like an extraordinary silly thing, but meh, my Steam library is incredibly silly too and I barely make use of it.


  • #134
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Nope.

    And whether you agree with inequality or not is irrelevant, at the end of the day you won't change anything. Better to work in the system than against it. That's the point I'm making.
    I won't personally, but if enough people agree with me then it's curtains for the status quo. That's how these things have worked throughout history... the rich and powerful seldom share in response to a well written plea.


  • #135
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Did everybody miss the bit about countries with greater wealth equality having higher mean income?
    That was good that, wasn't it?


  • #136
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I won't personally, but if enough people agree with me then it's curtains for the status quo. That's how these things have worked throughout history... the rich and powerful seldom share in response to a well written plea.
    There has never ever in history been equality. Even in our hunter gatherer stage the men and tribal leaders took the lions share of the kill.

    If you want more money work for it. Take some professional exams or enrol in a course in the open university. Stop whining that CEOs make a lot of money and instead make it your life's goal to join their ranks.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Did everybody miss the bit about countries with greater wealth equality having higher mean income?
    That was good that, wasn't it?
    Cause doesn't equal effect.


  • #137
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I won't personally, but if enough people agree with me then it's curtains for the status quo. That's how these things have worked throughout history... the rich and powerful seldom share in response to a well written plea.

    It won't.

    In my own case, my relative salary (relative to peers in my profession) has been eroded by various cuts, the Haddington Road Agreement, and unilateral changes to my contract of employment imposed by the public sector organisation......

    .......hence my imminent return to a private sector firm in the UK.

    Unless every country (or at least every country in the EU along with the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a few others) imposes such a regime, then people will still have opportunities to move and avoid having such a condition imposed on their salary.


  • #138
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    There has never ever in history been equality. Even in our hunter gatherer stage the men and tribal leaders took the lions share of the kill.
    Lame argument. You could say the same about health care, sanitation or universal suffrage.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    If you want more money work for it. Take some professional exams or enrol in a course in the open university. Stop whining that CEOs make a lot of money and instead make it your life's goal to join their ranks.
    Or if you think their salary is an unjust construct of a kleptocratic society, then make it your life's goal to knock them down a peg.


  • #139
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It won't.

    In my own case, my relative salary (relative to peers in my profession) has been eroded by various cuts, the Haddington Road Agreement, and unilateral changes to my contract of employment imposed by the public sector organisation......
    Things can't be changed? I think you'll find history shows things can be changed. Not always for the better and seldom peacefully, but it does happen.
    I guess the private sector advocates will be delighted you're off their tax burden. I don't know if you were worth what you were paid either way TBH.
    Doctor?


  • #140
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Lame argument. You could say the same about health care, sanitation or universal suffrage.


    Or if you think their salary is an unjust construct of a kleptocratic society, then make it your life's goal to knock them down a peg.

    Good luck with that. I'd pick another goal tbh, maybe try curing cancer?


  • #141
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yeah, but as expected, this conversation isn't about YOU, it's about society. Excuse me if I don't get too worked up about you getting on the first plane out of Europe if it's made the lot of the vast majority of the population better.
    Yes but this 1:12 wage cap isn't going to increase the wages of the lower paid staff.
    It's just going to cap the wages of the higher paid staff.
    Any additional wage savings are just going to increase profits.

    How does this increase the lot of the vast majority of the population?


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  • #142
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Lame argument. You could say the same about health care, sanitation or universal suffrage.
    Well that's test that hypothesis.

    "There has never been equality" Yep, that sounds about accurate.

    "There has never been healthcare" hmm, no that one doesn't make sense.

    "There has never been sanitation" Well I don't know about you but I have a toilet and a shower. Most people do so that's not true either.

    "There has never been universal suffrage" Not true either, we've had universal suffrage for decades.

    Or if you think their salary is an unjust construct of a kleptocratic society, then make it your life's goal to knock them down a peg.
    Or you could realise that companies pay all of their employees what their value is. If they paid too little the company would lose the person to another company, if they paid too much the company would be at a disadvantage against their competitors.

    I find it startling that you profess your life's goal to be knocking down successful people instead of trying to be successful yourself.


  • #143
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Yes but this 1:12 wage cap isn't going to increase the wages of the lower paid staff.
    It's just going to cap the wages of the higher paid staff.
    Any additional wage savings are just going to increase profits.

    How does this increase the lot of the vast majority of the population?
    If the CEO wants more pay all he has to do is give the lowest paid worker a raise.
    Like, duh.


  • #144
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Well that's test that hypothesis.

    "There has never been equality" Yep, that sounds about accurate.

    "There has never been healthcare" hmm, no that one doesn't make sense.

    "There has never been sanitation" Well I don't know about you but I have a toilet and a shower. Most people do so that's not true either.

    "There has never been universal suffrage" Not true either, we've had universal suffrage for decades.



    Or you could realise that companies pay all of their employees what their value is. If they paid too little the company would lose the person to another company, if they paid too much the company would be at a disadvantage against their competitors.

    I find it startling that you profess your life's goal to be knocking down successful people instead of trying to be successful yourself.

    No, no they don't. It's widely accepted that as a trainee, you are vastly overpaid for your contribution, then you become skilled, and are vastly underpaid for years, then you become CEO and are once again vastly overpaid. Many CEOs, and MDs, are muppets.


  • #145
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If the CEO wants more pay all he has to do is give the lowest paid worker a raise.
    Like, duh.

    Or fire them and the lowest paid worker will be on a higher a wage and the CEO can give themself the raise. :pac:


  • #146
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Tail Docker wrote: »
    No, no they don't. It's widely accepted that as a trainee, you are vastly overpaid for your contribution, then you become skilled, and are vastly underpaid for years, then you become CEO and are once again vastly overpaid. Many CEOs, and MDs, are muppets.
    Widely acepted by whom?

    Graduates are underpaid relative to their skill level because they are easily replaced. A person's expandability is taken account of in their value.


  • #147
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Well that's test that hypothesis.

    "There has never been equality" Yep, that sounds about accurate.

    "There has never been healthcare" hmm, no that one doesn't make sense.

    "There has never been sanitation" Well I don't know about you but I have a toilet and a shower. Most people do so that's not true either.

    "There has never been universal suffrage" Not true either, we've had universal suffrage for decades.
    Point missed in jaw-droppingly spectacular fashion.
    Just because something hasn't existed in society before doesn't mean it isn't a good idea and shouldn't be brought in.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I find it startling that you profess your life's goal to be knocking down successful people instead of trying to be successful yourself.
    I am successful enough myself thanks all the same. Have you got any other lines, because that one's wearing thing at this stage.
    By "successful" you mean rich I suppose? I simply don't believe all rich people are deserving of their riches, any more than I believe that all poor people deserve to be poor.


  • #148
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Things can't be changed? I think you'll find history shows things can be changed. Not always for the better and seldom peacefully, but it does happen.
    I guess the private sector advocates will be delighted you're off their tax burden. I don't know if you were worth what you were paid either way TBH.
    Doctor?

    Perhaps in the past, but with EU freedom of movement , the internet, cheap air travel etc it's a lot more challenging.

    Not a doctor.

    .......and my role was revenue generating. I brought in about twice what I cost.

    But having started as a 'poacher' - I will returning to be one!

    Professionally, it's much more satisfying to work in the public interest and when I joined the PS the salary was comparable to what I was getting working privately (the benefits less so). But while salaries in the Irish PS have stagnated and declined, the money offered by private firms has been increasing.

    When I joined the PS my salary was about the median according to the professional body I'm a member of - the salary survey for this year had it in the bottom quartile.

    I'd no real desire to move on, but I was 'courted' - then the crowd I'm going to work for made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

    On the 'plus' side - the body I'm still employed with, in a fit of petty pique, is making me 'work' out every last day of my notice.......only two more months of twiddling my thumbs to go - hopefully the weather will keep up.


  • #149
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Or fire them and the lowest paid worker will be on a higher a wage and the CEO can give themself the raise. :pac:
    If the company can continue with no employees then why not!


  • #150
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Point missed in jaw-droppingly spectacular fashion.
    Just because something hasn't existed in society before doesn't mean it isn't a good idea and shouldn't be brought in.

    This was what you wrote

    "That's how these things have worked throughout history... the rich and powerful seldom share in response to a well written plea."

    There has never ever been equality in our history. "Equality" isn't even possible.

    I am successful enough myself thanks all the same. Have you got any other lines, because that one's wearing thing at this stage.
    By "successful" you mean rich I suppose? I simply don't believe all rich people are deserving of their riches, any more than I believe that all poor people deserve to be poor.
    Yet you seek to knock all rich people "down a peg" despite believing that some of them do deserve their wealth?

    Also there aren't really any poor people in this country. Less well off sure but by global standards they're hardly poor.


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  • #151
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Perhaps in the past, but with EU freedom of movement , the internet, cheap air travel etc it's a lot more challenging.

    Not a doctor.

    .......and my role was revenue generating. I brought in about twice what I cost.

    But having started as a 'poacher' - I will returning to be one!

    Professionally, it's much more satisfying to work in the public interest and when I joined the PS the salary was comparable to what I was getting working privately (the benefits less so). But while salaries in the Irish PS have stagnated and declined, the money offered by private firms has been increasing.

    When I joined the PS my salary was about the median according to the professional body I'm a member of - the salary survey for this year had it in the bottom quartile.

    I'd no real desire to move on, but I was 'courted' - then the crowd I'm going to work for made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

    On the 'plus' side - the body I'm still employed with, in a fit of petty pique, is making me 'work' out every last day of my notice.......only two more months of twiddling my thumbs to go - hopefully the weather will keep up.

    No, no-one can "make" you work out notice. You are working it out voluntarily. I never worked a days notice in my life - "I'm off, good luck". "But you can't??!" "I can, I am Ill, mentally unstable, depressed, pregnant, not owed anything by ye, don't need it if I am, couldn't give a feck, sue me.."


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