Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

Mitch Connor · 27-06-2014 09:43AM

ericzeking wrote: »

I was thinking about this too, Vidal and Herrerra with Mata or Kagawa ahead as a midfield 3...does this offer much protection to the defence? From what I've seen of both it might leave us a bit open... Although with that 3, coached by LVG, we'd probably have 80% possession every game!

Herrera gets stuck in, as does Vidal, so it wouldn't be a work shy midfield, but it would lack a holding, protecting influence. At his best though, Strootman is a box to box midifelder too. He can play as a sitting ball spreading midfielder, but he likes to attack and score too, much like Vidal.

I would say none of the three are defensive midfielders, they are all the frequently more rare (imo) central midfielder, capable and willing to do a bit of everything.

yermandan · 27-06-2014 09:44AM

@themanutdway: Ryan Giggs was on hand to greet Luke Shaw at Carrington. He is now completing medical/photos before taking a tour of Old Trafford. #mufc

ericzeking · 27-06-2014 09:46AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Herrera gets stuck in, as does Vidal, so it wouldn't be a work shy midfield, but it would lack a holding, protecting influence. At his best though, Strootman is a box to box midifelder too. He can play as a sitting ball spreading midfielder, but he likes to attack and score too, much like Vidal.

I would say none of the three are defensive midfielders, they are all the frequently more rare (imo) central midfielder, capable and willing to do a bit of everything.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that Herrerra is actually 6ft tall (as opposed to the usual nippy Spanish lads) which augurs well for his adaptability to the more rigorous Premier league...

bangkok · 27-06-2014 09:49AM

ericzeking wrote: »

I was pleasantly surprised to see that Herrerra is actually 6ft tall (as opposed to the usual nippy Spanish lads) which augurs well for his adaptability to the more rigorous Premier league...

yes and he likes a tackle, not afraid to put the boot in. really good signing

Cookiemunster · 27-06-2014 09:53AM

yermandan wrote: »

@themanutdway: Ryan Giggs was on hand to greet Luke Shaw at Carrington. He is now completing medical/photos before taking a tour of Old Trafford. #mufc

While in this case it's probably true, you do need to start following better twitter sources

Billy86 · 27-06-2014 10:01AM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

This Nani get a run of games thing is a myth, he's had run of games in seasons past and done nothing too, and that's why the likes of Valencia were getting played ahead of him.

I am not a bi Nani fan myself, but here is an interesting statistic from last season:

Minutes per goal or assist
119.2 - Nani - Premier League
119.8 - Hazard - PL
148.6 - Lingard - Championship
178.0 - Young - PL
205.6 - Januzaj - PL
252.4 - Valencia - PL
274.8 - Zaha - CH
616.0 - Zaha - PL

Spazdarn · 27-06-2014 10:02AM

Keno wrote: »

Agreed.

Wait....but...what you just said.....huh...

A retort to his original comment.

I'm just frustrated that a player so physically capable of being brilliant, fails to deliver on a yearly basis. How many more years of he's got it in his locker do we have to put up with, until it's displayed. I'd dump Nani and give Januzaj the chance to flourish.

adox · 27-06-2014 10:07AM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Those 3 appearances only compound my point that he's not consistent enough, Ronaldo had been injured since the tail end of the season, and was injured coming into the very first game of the tournament. He performed having "not kicked a ball" coming into the tournament and carrying a serious knee injury.

He still performed. Nani didn't. That was my point, and your moronic guurr Ronaldo must be terrible duhhhh comment didn't add anything to the conversation. Ronaldo is world class, Nani is average at best... Ronaldo is far and beyond Nani's level and shouldn't be the meter stick with which to measure Nani's ability.

This Nani get a run of games thing is a myth, he's had run of games in seasons past and done nothing too, and that's why the likes of Valencia were getting played ahead of him.

You totally missed my point regarding Ronaldo but carry on with your petty insults.

Billy86 · 27-06-2014 10:09AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Herrera gets stuck in, as does Vidal, so it wouldn't be a work shy midfield, but it would lack a holding, protecting influence. At his best though, Strootman is a box to box midifelder too. He can play as a sitting ball spreading midfielder, but he likes to attack and score too, much like Vidal.

I would say none of the three are defensive midfielders, they are all the frequently more rare (imo) central midfielder, capable and willing to do a bit of everything.

We already have that guy. He'll be 33 this season but still can get the job done nicely so long as we don't ask him to single handedly look after a third of the entire pitch between the backline and midfield like Moyes did.

ElChe32 · 27-06-2014 10:11AM

Sun shining, two players in the bag...and it's Friday?

TheDoc · 27-06-2014 10:11AM

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.

You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

beakerjoe · 27-06-2014 10:14AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.

You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

Bravo Doc Bravo. Couldnt say it better myself.

bullvine · 27-06-2014 10:15AM

Fantastic Doc!

Spazdarn · 27-06-2014 10:16AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.

You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

I understand the argument that he can do something special in a game, I get that, but you can't quantify the amount of goals we probably could have got, or not have conceded if his decision making was better.

adox · 27-06-2014 10:16AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.

You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

Ive no problem with people not wanting Nani at the club but when you get one line posts like "Nani had a run in the world cup and he was pants" and used a s a reason to move him on then I`m going to reply.

The Nani debate has been done to death and I try to stay out of it but with the likes of the above being posted its hard not to comment.

Sgt Pepper 64 · 27-06-2014 10:17AM

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

Mitch Connor · 27-06-2014 10:18AM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I understand the argument that he can do something special in a game, I get that, but you can't quantify the amount of goals we probably could have got, or not have conceded if his decision making was better.

compare him to Valencia of the last two seasons.

I would argue that if Nani got as good a run on the right of midfield we'd have got more goals and assists out of him than we did Valencia, and considering the amount of goals Valencia was at least partially responsible for giving away in the last two seasons, and especially last season I don't think we'd have suffered much defensively either.

TheDoc · 27-06-2014 10:20AM

Billy86 wrote: »

I am not a bi Nani fan myself, but here is an interesting statistic from last season:

Minutes per goal or assist
119.2 - Nani - Premier League
119.8 - Hazard - PL
148.6 - Lingard - Championship
178.0 - Young - PL
205.6 - Januzaj - PL
252.4 - Valencia - PL
274.8 - Zaha - CH
616.0 - Zaha - PL

Again, total misunderstanding of statistics and a use

Statistics form part of a narrative, they arn't THE narrative.

So if you added some narrative here, you would also explore the fact that Nani played a small fraction of the overall minutes played by the rest in that list.

You would also narrate, if you were honest, that you cannot conclude that Nani's involvement in those particular minutes, he was the directing influence in terms of goals scored or chances created etc. You forgetting a pretty massive mitigating factor, in how the rest of the team performed.

You've taken a small dataset, and tried comparing it with a large one. You've also omitted the mitigating factors that simply makes this statistic ambiguous.

So rather then me commenting on what I think your saying, tell us what you think those stats actually illustrate, with your narrative. Then we can discuss them.

You can't just throw down numbers, and draw something from them

My pet hate, data analyst thing, but I just don't get why people throw down stats as if its a " now, there it is, in science". It makes no sense without narrative.

TheFullDuck · 27-06-2014 10:20AM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAUOPHqx5Gs

Spazdarn · 27-06-2014 10:22AM

adox wrote: »

Ive no problem with people not wanting Nani at the club but when you get one line posts like "Nani had a run in the world cup and he was pants" and used a s a reason to move him on then I`m going to reply.

The Nani debate has been done to death and I try to stay out of it but with the likes of the above being posted its hard not to comment.

The argument began with a defence that he could be great if he got a run. He's had runs for club and country and done nothing with them. The world cup, is a short run of games for everybody. Every player there has to perform within said amount of games, hardly a valid argument that he could be so much better if he more games. There are plenty of lesser skilled players at the tournament with less game time coming into the tournament, doing far more... so that doesn't really cut it.

15 appearances 2 goals for his country in the last 2 years... added to his United statistics.

FutureGuy · 27-06-2014 10:23AM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

Given Shaw looks like signing for United and not his boyhood club, anything is possible

For the first time, United have a bit of momentum in the market and we have a world class manager. Could happen.

yermandan · 27-06-2014 10:24AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

While in this case it's probably true, you do need to start following better twitter sources

10/10 agree haha

Spazdarn · 27-06-2014 10:24AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

compare him to Valencia of the last two seasons.

I would argue that if Nani got as good a run on the right of midfield we'd have got more goals and assists out of him than we did Valencia, and considering the amount of goals Valencia was at least partially responsible for giving away in the last two seasons, and especially last season I don't think we'd have suffered much defensively either.

Agreed Valencia has been terrible, I don't want either of them to be honest.

Mitch Connor · 27-06-2014 10:26AM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Agreed Valencia has been terrible, I don't want either of them to be honest.

Agreed - but my point is that I believe if Nani was given the patience and seemingly blind faith Moyes and Fergie gave Valencia, we would have a very very good player on our hands.

Remember when Valencia was injured and Nani did get a proper go on the right, he was (imo) robbed of player of the season by Bale.

Irishcrx · 27-06-2014 10:27AM

Delighted that we got Herrera and Shaw , we need a world class CB now. Hopefully Utd will go big and get Hummels, if we do that and get maybe Depay? and another CM it'll have been a great summer..

glued · 27-06-2014 10:30AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.

You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

Nani has started 14 games in the last two seasons. He does not get a consistent run to suggest he does is a complete fallacy. In the two seasons where Nani had a consistent run in the team he scored 9 goals and had 18 assists which placed him joint top with Tevez and Drogba in the goals scored/assisted chart. The following season 11/12 he was injured and played about 500 less minutes on the pitch but still managed to score 8 goals and assist 10 goals.

In the following season 2012/13 Ferguson didn't use him and was suffering with his ankle into the new season and it ruined his season. He only started 7 games. Moyes was just a disaster who didn't know how to use any players effectively.

The hate for Nani is bizarre. It's a myth that Nani is inconsistent because to be inconsistent you have to be involved in a consistent run of games. It's lazy analysis and the sort you would hear coming from a Phil Thompson or Charlie Nicholas. It's a fact that when Nani is involved in a consistent run of games over a season that he produces on the field for Manchester United.

Billy86 · 27-06-2014 10:31AM

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.

You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

First I just have to say that we have a log jam of attacking players, especially without European football, and need to get rid of a few of them. Nani is on my list of players to offload (but LvG does like a pacy dribbler ala Robben, so might give him a swing) But I cannot agree with most of this, at least not fully.

Nani can be maddeningly inconsistent and frustrating, and can implode a match all on his own like Ronaldo used to sometimes do before 2006 and that is why I wouldn't mind to see the back of him.

But the fact is from around Jan 2011 - May 2012 he was one of our top players, with around 20 goals and 25 assists... then for some unknown own reasons he was pretty much dropped completely for Young and Valencia in 2012/13 despite those two players - between them - scoring ONE goal and getting nine assists. This continued last season where they combined for just 6 goals, 6 assists. Basically, there was some reason behind merit that was causing them to be picked over Nani. There were stories about injuries, but it also stank of politics (looking your way, Wayne!).

Even in his very limited appearances last season, Nani was far more consistent and productive than those two, but it didn't seem to matter. Again I would have offloaded him this summer if i was running the show, but not before punting Young and Valencia into touch. Cannot make any sense of resigning the latter.

TheDoc · 27-06-2014 10:34AM

adox wrote: »

Ive no problem with people not wanting Nani at the club but when you get one line posts like "Nani had a run in the world cup and he was pants" and used a s a reason to move him on then I`m going to reply.

The Nani debate has been done to death and I try to stay out of it but with the likes of the above being posted its hard not to comment.

I'm in agreeance with you there, read that myself and don't really compute.

I do accept that there is a good excuse, for him playing little to no gametime this season for United, playing three games in a world cup, and not lighting it on fire.

It's an unrealistic expectation surely?

But at the same time, and related my point, it's another in a long line of "excuses" for Nani.

How many games do we say quantifies enough to be back to match sharpness?

Suarez came back from his ban all guns blazing. Ronaldo came back from injury all guns blazing. I'll accept there are cases where players come back a little rough after injury, but Nani has been in full training for months. Open to correction, but he played two full games for Portugal in their pre tournament warmup games.

I think it's a realistic expectation that the player is ready to go.

That's just asking the question though, I think there is good weight behind critising a point made that Nani is rubbish JUST BECAUSE he had three bad games.

But at the same time it's somewhat symptomatic of the Nani paradox. If he needs a run of games to get sharp and on form, he's not any use in tournament football. And how do you quantify what sort of run of games he needs.

He's just too inconsistent to be relying on in a squad that is challenging( or wanting to) for titles etc. I wouldn't be so hasty into rushing him out the door, when he is in that electric form, he's incredible. But I think Nani needs to either take a long hard look, and work to sort out his inconsistency and rubbish decision making majority of times, or he needs to accept he will spend most of his time on the bench operating as a potential impact sub.

Considering Nani probably evaluates himself higher then recent form would suggest, the eventual conclusion here is the player leaving.

Spazdarn · 27-06-2014 10:36AM

Nani performed amazingly one season in seven. Didn't do a whole lot before that season, has done even less since.

From lazy wikipedia research, it appears he's scored about 40 goals in 220 games for United... for an attacking player that shoots as often as he does, is this enough?

MagicIRL · 27-06-2014 10:40AM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

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