Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 11:23AM

David Gill a football man?

Oh will you come off it. Gill was a highly regarded accountant, who happened to have a long and fruitfull relationship with one of the best managers of all time.

A manager, who had a preference to be involved with transfers himself. It was regular and frequent for Ferguson to sit in with Gill for both new signings, and contract negotiations for existing players.

In the cases where he wasn't involved, it was typically a player the club were confident of signing, saw little issue knowing the player wanted to come, and contract negotiations were a formality.

It's worth remembering for example that Ferguson organised Ronaldo's move to the club pretty much entirely himself while onsite at Sporting, with the contractual agreement in the end being a formality.

Managers are becoming less and less involved in the transfer dealings in terms of specifically sitting in on dealings. Most now leave that work to their execs/sportings directors, which leaves them to focus more elsewhere.

Ferguson and Gill was an explicitly unique situation, but don't be fooled into thinking Gill wasn't shaky in the beginning, or even towards the end. He missed out and let some big players slip through the cracks.

Gill also set the expectation via an address last season that the manager coming into the club while needing Premier league and European experience, must also not be someone who will tear the squad apart. And that a key criteria was someone experienced with working with youth and existing squads.

He set the precident that followed whereby the squad was to remain intact, in that you couldn't "disassemble" a championship winning squad. I'd have thought any football man would know that you can't stand idle and expect repeated success.

So much rose tinted glasses going on with our club now that things have gone sour this season, but let's try keep somewhat realistic as to what has gone before.

RobertKK · 16-05-2014 11:35AM

Some of the stuff coming out of Bayern Munich does point to the possibility of Toni Kroos leaving.
Effenburg appealed for him to stay, Pep said he wants him to stay and said the only reason Kroos would be leaving Bayern is for more money .
The Bild claims Pep has held talks with Kroos to try and convince him to stay and urged him to reject Man United's cash.

The word is though the head people at Bayern do not want him on the top wages there like their other established stars, it will be their own fault if he leaves.

redbaron_99 · 16-05-2014 11:45AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some of the stuff coming out of Bayern Munich does point to the possibility of Toni Kroos leaving.
Effenburg appealed for him to stay, Pep said he wants him to stay and said the only reason Kroos would be leaving Bayern is for more money .
The Bild claims Pep has held talks with Kroos to try and convince him to stay and urged him to reject Man United's cash.

The word is though the head people at Bayern do not want him on the top wages there like their other established stars, it will be their own fault if he leaves.

You could hardly blame him wanting to leave. Gotze wouldn't be as important to the squad as Kroos, but is on a lot more money. It'll be a great signing if it happens.

homerjay2005 · 16-05-2014 11:50AM

TheDoc wrote: »

David Gill a football man?

Oh will you come off it. Gill was a highly regarded accountant

Larry Wildman wrote: »

David Gill was not / is not a football man.

You make him sound like Matt Busby!

Gill's an accountant.
.

so a man who was not only CE of our club for 10 years, but also elected to the board of the FA and European Club council is not a football man?

by your logic so, Howard Webb is not one of the top football refs in the world, but is just a police officer along with the many other men who dont have a background in football.

im sure you both dont work in football, does that mean your not football men also?

Fenix · 16-05-2014 12:05PM

LVG's interactions with the press make it hard for me to want anyone else at OT.

glued · 16-05-2014 12:09PM

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

brinty · 16-05-2014 12:14PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so a man who was not only CE of our club for 10 years, but also elected to the board of the FA and European Club council is not a football man?

by your logic so, Howard Webb is not one of the top football refs in the world, but is just a police officer along with the many other men who dont have a background in football.

im sure you both dont work in football, does that mean your not football men also?

Blody well said Homer,

Mark Zuckerberg's expertise is in computer programming......... what does he know about running a multi billion dollar business

FFS just because the man's profession was accountancy (as is Ed Woodward) and he's not a football man. I've never heard such rubbish in my life.

The man's background is in business and like it or not Manchester United is a bloody business which happens to be a football club. As much as we're all emotive about the club at the end of the day we have flip all say in the running of it on a daily basis as a business becuase most of us wouldn't have the first clue how to run it.

All the supposed football men amongst us would have the club bankrupt in six weeks if they were left in charge of it.

Manchester united as a business is one of the most successful and very few profitable clubs in the sports industry and who's getting any praise for that. No one gets any praise cos its all about what they don't do.

Some people in here love to kick a guy about the place not matter what he does. God forgive me for saying this but tis nothing but typical irish begrudgery..

Will I Amnt · 16-05-2014 12:17PM

brinty wrote: »

Blody well said Homer,

Mark Zuckerberg's expertise is in computer programming......... what does he know about running a multi billion dollar business

FFS just because the man's profession was accountancy (as is Ed Woodward) and he's not a football man. I've never heard such rubbish in my life.

The man's background is in business and like it or not Manchester United is a bloody business which happens to be a football club. As much as we're all emotive about the club at the end of the day we have flip all say in the running of it on a daily basis as a business becuase most of us wouldn't have the first clue how to run.

All the supposed football men amongst us would have the club bankrupt in six weeks if they were left i charge of it.

Manchester united as a business is the most successful and very few profitable clubs in the sports industry and who's getting any praise for that. No one gets any praise cos its all about what they don't do.

Some people in here love to kick a guy about the place not matter what he does. God forgive me for saying this but tis nothing but typical irish begrudgery..

So which side of the argument are you on, you seem to switch from one side to the other there

redbaron_99 · 16-05-2014 12:21PM

glued wrote: »

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

Wouldn't say that. There is a sense at Bayern that he is a bit lazy at times, and games can pass him by, particularly against the smaller teams. I'm not so sure about all that to be honest. I've watched him play a lot, and yes he is quite reserved in his style, but far from inconsistent.
I wouldnt be calling him the great saviour of United, though. Kroos will not offer a huge amount of mobility and work rate in the middle. The ideal situation would be to have Kroos alongside a very energetic midfielder. Good combination.

homerjay2005 · 16-05-2014 12:24PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

So which side of the argument are you on, you seem to switch from one side to the other there

not even sure this should be an argument. Gill went on to prove that he is a football man, Woodward now has to do the same.

people here back up Woodward to the hills, but then discredit Gill as if to say he was only good because Fergie was there.

RobertKK · 16-05-2014 12:25PM

Well I am a fan of Ed Woodward, as I think he is doing a fabulous job.

Whether it is Gill or Woodward, their primary job has not been football itself, it has been about running a business in a successful manner, one does not have to be a football person to run a football club successfully, they need to be good with numbers, same as with any business.

Woodward for example is not out scouting players, it is his job to make the numbers work if a player is wanted by the club and to sell a player and get the price available.
No different to a farmer buying and selling cattle. You just have to know the worth of whatever is being traded, and like a farmer with his cattle or sheep, one can't be sure how much a player is worth until they try and buy or sell that player and who wants the player.

brinty · 16-05-2014 12:38PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

So which side of the argument are you on, you seem to switch from one side to the other there

Will I am on the side of Woodward is doing a bloody good job and he needs to concentrate on the footballing side of the business this summer to ensure we get the right manager in and the right players.

He's developed the brand of Manchester United and expanded our revenue streams globally whereby we can absorb the most of the revenue we'll miss out on next season by not being in Europe.

The clubs revenue has grown year on year for the last god knows how long even in periods of underperformance in leagues and europe. Thats because of the efforts of Gill and Woodward in developing brnad Manchester United.

But as can be seen people will ignore all the good they've both done to suit their argument.

glued · 16-05-2014 12:41PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Wouldn't say that. There is a sense at Bayern that he is a bit lazy at times, and games can pass him by, particularly against the smaller teams. I'm not so sure about all that to be honest. I've watched him play a lot, and yes he is quite reserved in his style, but far from inconsistent.
I wouldnt be calling him the great saviour of United, though. Kroos will not offer a huge amount of mobility and work rate in the middle. The ideal situation would be to have Kroos alongside a very energetic midfielder. Good combination.

Calling him lazy is a lazy explanation tbh. He's got consistency issues.

We should pay £30+ for William Carvalho if that's what were paying for Shaw. Carvalho is going to have a cracking world cup. He was the best player in the Primeira Liga this season. Although Jardim wants him at Monaco and Sporting want 45 Million for him.

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 12:42PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so a man who was not only CE of our club for 10 years, but also elected to the board of the FA and European Club council is not a football man?

by your logic so, Howard Webb is not one of the top football refs in the world, but is just a police officer along with the many other men who dont have a background in football.

im sure you both dont work in football, does that mean your not football men also?

That's being deliberately twisting.

The common reference for the term "Football man" is someone who has an intricate niche understanding of the workings and operations of football, coming from personal experience.

Your reference to Gill being a football man, unless you want to correct yourself ( which is fine btw, I'm questioning the post, not you) is that he had an expert knowledge of football in the sense of the game, it's operations, and every nook and cranny in it.

Anytime you hear someone being labelled a "Football man" it's someone championing or praising their intricate knowledge and expertise of the game.

There is a pretty big difference between the statements "Gill was a football man" and "Gill had extensive experience working as a Chief Exec in Football". And going by your post I think you mean the latter, which is fine and correct, but wasn't implied in your post.

Labelling him a football man would be on par with saying he knew where the squad needed strengthening and went and did it of his own accord. Which was not ever the case.

He had in the end extensive experience and obviously knowledge on how the ordeal works, after working closely with Ferguson over a long period in hundreds of these scenarios.

I wouldn't label Gill anything negative, he was 50% of a highly succesful team along with Ferguson who were able to deal with contract negotiations for existing players with little issues or controversy, bring a high amount of players to the club including some crackers, while also being extremely sensitive and diplomatic when it came to letting players go, ensuring there was work done to ensure a departing player had a good fit.

That last point is something I hope our club doesnt lose. We don't, or have rarely, cut players lose and thrown them to the wolves. In most cases the club has worked on the players behalf to organise moves to suit them, good moves, even in most cases when they are facilitating a multi million pound loss.

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 12:50PM

Also re: Kroos, I said it when I was in Munich in January. Something is not right there.

This is a player who is exceptionally talented, has formed a core part of a succesfull team over two seasons, even when it looked for all intensive purposes he was being replaced ( re Thiago) and yet you walk around the Allianz arena and his face is NOWHERE to be seen in the public areas.

Thiago, Aliba, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Robben, Ribery. You name it, there is a 10ft poster of all the players around the public walkways, aswell as in the press area. Yet Kroos is nowhere to be seen, anywhere.

In the shop every player in the first team squad, bar three, THREE, have printed jerseys in full supply on the shelf to take. You need to specifically ask for a Kroos jersey to be printed.

It made little sense to me at the time. I asked the tour guide why Kroos was so woefully marketed around the stadium and in fairness to her she gave an honest response in that like any club, they will push the brand of flair players or long serving "legends. When I commented that then there probably is truth in the rumours Kroos is unhappy the way he is regarded at the club, she brushed on from the question.

There is a 101 factors as to why a player might want to stay or leave etc., but I think a major one that might upset you is not getting the recognition that you clearly deserve. Someone like Kroos will never have to worry about money in their life, so their focus is more on the things like success and respect.

Same with Ronaldo, it wasn't so long ago he was being quoted as saying he finds it difficult in how the Madrid crowd don't seem to "love him".

Lucas Hood · 16-05-2014 12:56PM

glued wrote: »

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

Kroos wasn't in the team because he was injured , he was playing the number 10 role before he got injured and Muller was keeping Robben out of the team on the wing.

He was most certainly a big part of the team before that injury.

Son Of A Vidic · 16-05-2014 01:01PM

Fenix wrote: »

LVG's interactions with the press make it hard for me to want anyone else at OT.

Love the way he handles the media right. Can't wait to see him doing the Friday press conferences.

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 01:06PM

glued wrote: »

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

I+loved+Michael+Keaton+as+the+batman+_dc567884209f11a284ce0a8e111c5e78.jpg

glued · 16-05-2014 01:06PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Also re: Kroos, I said it when I was in Munich in January. Something is not right there.

This is a player who is exceptionally talented, has formed a core part of a succesfull team over two seasons, even when it looked for all intensive purposes he was being replaced ( re Thiago) and yet you walk around the Allianz arena and his face is NOWHERE to be seen in the public areas.

Thiago, Aliba, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Robben, Ribery. You name it, there is a 10ft poster of all the players around the public walkways, aswell as in the press area. Yet Kroos is nowhere to be seen, anywhere.

In the shop every player in the first team squad, bar three, THREE, have printed jerseys in full supply on the shelf to take. You need to specifically ask for a Kroos jersey to be printed.

It made little sense to me at the time. I asked the tour guide why Kroos was so woefully marketed around the stadium and in fairness to her she gave an honest response in that like any club, they will push the brand of flair players or long serving "legends. When I commented that then there probably is truth in the rumours Kroos is unhappy the way he is regarded at the club, she brushed on from the question.

There is a 101 factors as to why a player might want to stay or leave etc., but I think a major one that might upset you is not getting the recognition that you clearly deserve. Someone like Kroos will never have to worry about money in their life, so their focus is more on the things like success and respect.

Same with Ronaldo, it wasn't so long ago he was being quoted as saying he finds it difficult in how the Madrid crowd don't seem to "love him".

Oh it's absolutely no secret that the Bayern fans don't love him. He's not a Lahm, even Muller who wouldn't be a fan favourite either is looked at in much higher stature than Kroos.

Sometimes the criticism of him is way over the top but he just doesn't seem to fit in. I'm not sure if this stems from his apparent leaking of information about the Bayern and German teams tot he press but it's certainly a strange one to figure out.

Similarly, Fabregas isn't a big fan favourite either. But his drop has been from his whinging and moaning about game time and then performing poorly on the pitch when he got his chance.

Also FWIW from my experience most Bayern fans see the midfield duo as being Martinez and Thiago next season with Schweinsteiger on the bench. Rode will also be expecting some game time too. Never mind Lahm who Pep seems to want to play there too.

glued · 16-05-2014 01:10PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Let me break down my post so you can understand it.

Kroos is overrated
He plays well in the big games for Bayern but is often poor and inconsistent too
During Bayern's best spell last year he wasn't in the team due to injury. People often refer to how well he played in that Bayern team but he didn't play in it at all and when he was injured they started playing much better.

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 01:16PM

glued wrote: »

Let me break down my post so you can understand it.

Kroos is overrated

He plays well in the big games for Bayern but is often poor and inconsistent too

During Bayern's best spell last year he wasn't in the team due to injury. People often refer to how well he played in that Bayern team but he didn't play in it at all and when he was injured they started playing much better.

Let me respond

Kroos is overrated

Please see pic

He plays well in the big games for Bayern but is often poor and inconsistent too

I'm not getting into tit for tat in terms of who watches more Bundesliga, but as someone who watched Bayern weekly, simply to watch Kroos, I would be of the opinion that he is just as effective in the smaller games as the big. He completely controls the pace of what Bayern want to do at any given time.

During Bayern's best spell last year he wasn't in the team due to injury. People often refer to how well he played in that Bayern team but he didn't play in it at all and when he was injured they started playing much better.

He was in the team when he wasn't injured, and was a fair step above the rest of the squad who made a lackluster start to the season. Coupling his ommision via injury to when the squad got it's act together and stopped being rubbish isn't exactly equaling your point.

Coupled with the fact Kroos has pretty much established himself as a starter in the German first team, from last year....

We need a dynamic CM that is comfortable in position and can launch attacks and can ramp the tempo up on demand. Welcome to the wonderful land of Toni Kroos.

He can play at 10, but he's actually looking more and more accomplished operating from deep. It's scary how he just never gets flustered and makes it look so easy and pedestrian.

bangkok · 16-05-2014 01:22PM

did I just read that toni kroos is over rated??!!! :eek::eek:

homerjay2005 · 16-05-2014 01:25PM

Tony Kroos is the best player i have seen play (in the flesh) in a long long time, the guy is just incredibly gifted.

he wont solve all our problems, but he will solve alot of them. put a hard working /destructive midfielder beside him and pacey/creative players in front of him (Rooney, Mata,Adnan) and we have the basis of an excellent attacking team.

Kroos is as close to a replacement for Scholes as there is playing football right now.

he had an excellent goal scoring record last season (a goal every 4 games) but that has totally diminished this season.

glued · 16-05-2014 01:28PM

TheDoc wrote: »

He was in the team when he wasn't injured, and was a fair step above the rest of the squad who made a lackluster start to the season. Coupling his ommision via injury to when the squad got it's act together and stopped being rubbish isn't exactly equaling your point.

What are you talking about? You're putting words in my mouth now. I never said Bayern Munich were rubbish when Kroos was in the team; I said that they were better when he was out of the side injured and they most certainly were a better side. My reference to that point was because people often have suggested in the past that Kroos was a part of that side that destroyed Barcelona; He wasn't. When Bayern Munich were at their best last season Kroos was out injured. If you had bothered to read my post you would of noticed that or perhaps I'm being naive in expecting that much from you.

Coupled with the fact Kroos has pretty much established himself as a starter in the German first team, from last year....

We need a dynamic CM that is comfortable in position and can launch attacks and can ramp the tempo up on demand. Welcome to the wonderful land of Toni Kroos.

He can play at 10, but he's actually looking more and more accomplished operating from deep. It's scary how he just never gets flustered and makes it look so easy and pedestrian.

Again that's a pretty preposterous remark to make. I never for one second suggested that he was a bad player; I merely noted the point that he was overrated. Two quite different things altogether. He deserves his place in the national team...

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 01:30PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Tony Kroos is the best player i have seen play in a long long time, the guy is just incredibly gifted.

he wont solve all our problems, but he will solve alot of them. put a hard working /destructive midfielder beside him and pacey/creative players in front of him (Rooney, Mata,Adnan) and we have the basis of an excellent attacking team.

Kroos is as close to a replacement for Scholes as there is playing football right now.

he had an excellent goal scoring record last season (a goal every 4 games) but that has totally diminished this season.

You know that is pretty much in one line the best description in favour of Kroos.

So much of our issues this season have been playing just pedestrian across the opposition defense hoping for a hole to magically appear. If a gap isn't forthcoming Kroos can just launch a perfect ball over the top.

Watch any Bayern game. His long range passing is second to none, he drops the ball right on the foot of the player he is aiming at, or into their path of a sprint.

When things are slowing down and opposition defences are getting tight, Robben or Ribery will make a run from wide and he just finds them, catches everyone by surprise.

Go watch Bayern vs Dortmund tomorrow for anyone in doubt. I might not catch the game due to other commitments, but I'd be shocked if anyone comes away thinking he is over rated.

bangkok · 16-05-2014 01:34PM

said it a few months ago and a done deal now, luis Enrique next barca manager

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 01:34PM

glued wrote: »

What are you talking about? You're putting words in my mouth now. I never said Bayern Munich were rubbish when Kroos was in the team; I said that they were better when he was out of the side injured and they most certainly were a better side. My reference to that point was because people often have suggested in the past that Kroos was a part of that side that destroyed Barcelona; He wasn't. When Bayern Munich were at their best last season Kroos was out injured. If you had bothered to read my post you would of noticed that or perhaps I'm being naive in expecting that much from you.

You were implying that the side was operating better with his absence. I don't see how you can think I interpreted it in any other way. I'm pointing out it's really not anything worth mentioning. If he was not injured and in the side, they would have been better again.

There is no link between their increased performance levels and his ommision via injury. You seemed to bring it up, as if there was an exclusive trade off.

Again that's a pretty preposterous remark to make. I never for one second suggested that he was a bad player; I merely noted the point that he was overrated. Two quite different things altogether. He deserves his place in the national team...

I'm not saying you did. I'm pointing out that he has broken into the national side as a regular. Operating at no10 or deep lieing, or rotating between the two.

Considering those positions consist of Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Bender, Lahm to a point, Muller, Ozil and Gotze, I don't think it's far fetched to say being a starter from that collection, is hardly what you would call an over rated player.

TheDoc · 16-05-2014 01:35PM

bangkok wrote: »

said it a few months ago and a done deal now, luis Enrique next barca manager

Gratz Indy

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 16-05-2014 01:39PM

Haven't been online since Wednesday night in here. What have I missed can anyone sum up last 2 days in here please

homerjay2005 · 16-05-2014 01:44PM

MrMac84 wrote: »

Haven't been online since Wednesday night in here. What have I missed can anyone sum up last 2 days in here please

you missed absolutely f*ck all! we had fantasy line ups, non existent news on Van Gaal, usual weekly discussion about Woodward and Park retiring as well as the usual links to the same 5 or 6 players (Shaw/Hummels/Kroos/Muller/Reus)

nothing has happened of note.

Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

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