An extra 2,000 work permits a year will be created for foreign ICT professionals

Mr Chuckles · 11-05-2014 02:18PM #1

Is anyone who works in IT, concerned that 2000 work permits a year will be issued to ICT professionals? I work in the industry and fail to see the amount of vacant positions, that the Government claim are unfilled, never mind 2000. It seems to be a ploy to lower pay and conditions in the industry, by setting a benchmark of E30,000 for highly skilled workers. I have little faith that we can police the so called "Labour Market Tests". The abuse of the h1b visa in the US, caused the displacement of US workers.

Stheno · 11-05-2014 03:59PM

Has this not been in place for some time? With other incentives available for companies to bring people to Ireland?

My company regularly have to bring in contractors from the UK/Europe as we can't find appropriately qualified/experienced people here tbh

The_Conductor · 11-05-2014 04:02PM

Isn't the deal that it has to be advertised and no qualified EU citizen apply for the post- before you're allowed offer it to a non-EU citizen (who would then get one of the aforementioned permits).

rubberdiddies · 11-05-2014 04:05PM

I know nothing about this but I'd be a bit cynical.
A previous company I worked for (huge multinational with a few thousand employees here) brought workers in from India for 9 to 12 months at a time. We trained them in and were then offered voluntary redundancy. 150 (high paid workers) made redundant with the work now being done from India. (Badly by all accounts but that's another story!)

The only good things were that the voluntary redundancy program was oversubscribed and the Indian lads were great craic and still in touch with many if them today.

There were hundreds of these work permits granted to the guys from India at the time to effectively take jobs away from Ireland. The turnover amongst them was very high because in this industry in India they had plenty of job opportunities

Pro Hoc Vice · 11-05-2014 04:08PM

Mr Chuckles wrote: »

Is anyone who works in IT, concerned that an additional 2000 work permits a year will be issued to ICT professionals? I work in the industry and fail to see the amount of vacant positions, that the Government claim are unfilled, never mind 2000. It seems to be a ploy to lower pay and conditions in the industry, by setting a benchmark of E30,000 for highly skilled workers. I have little faith that we can police the so called "Labour Market Tests". The abuse of the h1b visa in the US, caused the displacement of US workers.

Have you a link to the 2000 figure per year.

Stheno · 11-05-2014 04:11PM

Looks like OP has got it slightly wrong, here's an article about it last April 2013 where the govt said it will provide 2000 extra IT staff through a combination of 700 work permits and 1300 graduates.

It mentions Version one and that they have hired some senior people through the visa/permit process, I'd guess this is where a lot of those visas are granted, as ime, it's people with ten years plus experience in fairly niche roles, where companies are having problems finding talent here.

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/2000-extra-tech-staff-a-year-with-education-and-visa-reforms-ministers-864454-Apr2013/

THE GOVERNMENT has said it will provide an extra 2,000 graduates in the technology sector next year, through the education and visa system.

Richard Bruton is to increase the number of employment permits issued to ICT firms by 50 per cent, allowing a further 700 people to work for Irish technology forms.

The changes come in addition to plans already unveiled by Ruairí Quinn, where Ireland hopes to create 1,300 new places in further education courses in ICT this year, including 600 places in Springboard courses.

The plans for permit reform were announced this morning during a visit to Version 1, an Irish technology company employing 350 people – including senior staff hired through employment permits.

Bruton said research had shown that every job created in the high-tech sector, whether through immigration or otherwise, created four to five roles elsewhere in the economy.

Other reforms being sought include a reduction in processing times for employment permits, and improvements in the appeals process.

“These changes are a win-win for Ireland, and help will ensure that we can create a truly world-class ICT sector in Ireland, which will provide enormous benefits for the economy and large numbers of badly-needed jobs for Irish workers, “Bruton said.

“I am determined that, through implementation of a range of ambitious reforms we will deliver on our aim of making Ireland the internet capital of Europe.”

The IBEC groups representing the technology sector gave the plans a broad welcome.

Paul Sweetman, the director of ICT Ireland, said reform of work permit was “vital for the growth of the technology sector”.

“The technology sector globally will continue to grow and create new jobs,” he said.

“The work permit reforms, coupled with the additional 1,300 tech graduates from current conversion programmes, will ensure that Ireland is well-placed to make the most of future growth in the sector.”

The_Conductor · 11-05-2014 04:21PM

We have an interesting number of Portuguese and Spanish IT staff here now- which isn't a bad thing per se- I think our population of Indians etc is still very limited (do correct me if I'm wrong).

Stheno · 11-05-2014 04:24PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

We have an interesting number of Portuguese and Spanish IT staff here now- which isn't a bad thing per se- I think our population of Indians etc is still very limited (do correct me if I'm wrong).

I'd agree, there are a fair few EU nationals working in various companies I've worked in and kept in touch with.

Less usual for non EU citizens to be working in companies

Mrs OBumble · 12-05-2014 12:17AM

Mr Chuckles wrote: »

I work in the industry and fail to see the amount of vacant positions, that the Government claim are unfilled, never mind 2000.

Have you looked for a Java developer lately? (A good one, not a muppet or new grad with no real-world experience?)

Mr Chuckles · 12-05-2014 07:26AM

Stheno wrote: »

Has this not been in place for some time? With other incentives available for companies to bring people to Ireland?

My company regularly have to bring in contractors from the UK/Europe as we can't find appropriately qualified/experienced people here tbh

Yes it has been available for some time, and several hundred have been issued in previous years. This has been increased to 2000.

Mr Chuckles · 12-05-2014 07:36AM

In relation to Stheno's post, The 2013 announcement has been superseded, with an announcement earlier this year. I can't post the link, but you can search for it: PR14-03-14 education

Mr Chuckles · 12-05-2014 07:41AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Have you a link to the 2000 figure per year.

I can't post links, but you can find the article on the education website by searching for: PR14-03-14 education

Mr Chuckles · 12-05-2014 07:45AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Have you looked for a Java developer lately? (A good one, not a muppet or new grad with no real-world experience?)

No I haven't, but the eligible categories have been changed to cover most areas of IT, not just programming/java. These are on the highly skilled occupation list, on the djei website.

Mr Chuckles · 12-05-2014 07:47AM

Stheno wrote: »

Has this not been in place for some time? With other incentives available for companies to bring people to Ireland?

My company regularly have to bring in contractors from the UK/Europe as we can't find appropriately qualified/experienced people here tbh

yes, but these permits are for people outside the European Economic Area.

The_Conductor · 12-05-2014 07:51AM

Mr Chuckles wrote: »

yes, but these permits are for people outside the European Economic Area.

However- you can only apply for one of these permits, when you show that you have sought, and failed, to find appropriate candidates in the EEA?

yosser hughes · 12-05-2014 07:57AM

Sean O'Sullivan from dragons den has been championing this and actively lobbying govt. for some time. Have a look what his company want to pay Java developers with 5 years experience. This is about lowering wages, nothing more and has been happening for years in other sectors.
Pretending it's about shortages etc. is nonsense;

Have a look below.

http://www.openireland.com/the-issues/open-borders-for-tech-talent/

The_Conductor · 12-05-2014 08:01AM

He certainly appears to be twisting half truths to support his contention.
I don't think anyone can argue with the simple fact- we have a shortage of JAVA programmers here- and its not being pushed sufficiently at secondary and tertiary levels. That aside- his one man crusade is disingenuous.

Mr Chuckles · 12-05-2014 08:06AM

The_Conductor wrote: »

However- you can only apply for one of these permits, when you show that you have sought, and failed, to find appropriate candidates in the EEA?

Yes, there are Labour Market tests. Is the test, I can't get a java programmer for E30,000?

Elessar · 12-05-2014 09:21AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Have you looked for a Java developer lately? (A good one, not a muppet or new grad with no real-world experience?)

How are you supposed to continue to get Java developers if you don't give new graduates a chance?

NZ_2014 · 12-05-2014 10:00AM

Elessar wrote: »

How are you supposed to continue to get Java developers if you don't give new graduates a chance?

Is it because so many "Muppets" in industry can`t be bothered with that, or don`t look that far ahead? Feck it! get the good guys in from abroad until we sort out the education system!

Mrs OBumble · 12-05-2014 10:12AM

Elessar wrote: »

How are you supposed to continue to get Java developers if you don't give new graduates a chance?

There are some roles which are suitable for grads - and the company I'm currently working for certainly hires some. But you cannot let the proportion of relatively inexperienced people, or ones with low levels of professional maturity (the lads with one years experience ten times over) get too high, or quality slips. That's why sometimes companies need to hire experienced people.

FWIW, a company I was recently doing some work for was recruiting for people with skills in a particular type of IT technology that's quite new and the skills are rare. They were effectively in an internal competition with four of their own sites worldwide: whoever can hire the most of these particular uber-geeks (naming the particular technology would identify the company) will become the company's world-wide centre-of-excellence for it. Frankly I don't think that anyone cares if the people come from India or wherever: if we can get them doing these jobs here, then this will support a number of jobs for lower skilled people here (cleaners, cafeteria staff, teachers, etc). There was absolutely no suggestion that the company expects these people to be cheap.

Manach · 12-05-2014 10:31AM

Based on how similar schemes worked out in the US, then we can care in that it will drive down the wages being paid to the pre-existing EU workers. Apart from the new marginal areas, such as data analytics, the IT skills shortage is more a willingless to work long hours for low professional wages shortage.

Ray Palmer · 12-05-2014 10:38AM

I have been contracting for years and there are quite a few people over on work visas from India. Every company I have been in for the last 10 years has had people in on such visas.
The process to get visas is abused and pretty insulting. One company hired an Australian on the premise they had advertised and could not find somebody in Ireland to fill the role. It wasn't true she turned up for an interview like everybody else. The owner just filled in the documentation to let her work here. There were plenty of people available to do the job the boss liked here because she was like him.
In one business park I worked in a company would regularly hire a bunch of people from India. We knew the day they first worked as they would all go around handing in their CVs to the companies in the park. Their wages were terrible so the first thing the did was try to get a better paid job.
Eventually the company kindly asked the companies to bin the CVs as they had spent the time recruiting them and felt it would be unfair that other companies benefited from this work and effort.
The reality was after a few companies had hired them they stopped as the quality of work was so bad. A lot of the education them claimed to have was not up to standard. I have worked with lots of people of all different nationalities and it isn't about them not being capable it is the fact there is a lot of false and poor education qualifications being used.
If anything companies just don't do the background checks on education from people outside of the country. Maybe they are used to knowing instantly from an Irish graduate whether a college/course is of quality but take foreign qualification as being legitimate. I worked with an Indian guy who was looking at some CVs and started laughing at some of them because he was pointing out they were mentioning being senior analysts at company that he said was bicycle shop, guys who worked in call centres claiming to be system architects. Due diligence is not carried out as these guy were working in Irish companies.

It is being pushed for to drop salaries no other reason. The IT industry has to start maturing and properly deciding on how to best use graduate for the future. Right now graduates are often overworked, underpaid and generally used as cannon fodder.

Elessar · 12-05-2014 10:44AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There are some roles which are suitable for grads - and the company I'm currently working for certainly hires some. But you cannot let the proportion of relatively inexperienced people, or ones with low levels of professional maturity (the lads with one years experience ten times over) get too high, or quality slips. That's why sometimes companies need to hire experienced people.

My point is that if there is a shortage of experienced Java developers, then there will continue to be a shortage if new graduates are not given the opportunities they need. From a look at the job sites, every company that is hiring is looking for experience and the grad programs are few and far between. It's good that your own company takes on grads but perhaps it should expand that program.

Every other company just wants the experience. If they were to think outside the box a little (an alien thought to most Irish management) and begin setting up graduate or no-experience needed programs for developers, they would give themselves a ready-made supply of developers every 12 months. And if they only kept the best on, well then in a few years they have a pool of experience devs to draw from.

Yes projects need senior devs for obvious reasons, but if there is a shortage now, what do you think it will be like in years to come if nothing is done about it?

Ray Palmer · 12-05-2014 11:04AM

Elessar wrote: »

Every other company just wants the experience. If they were to think outside the box a little (an alien thought to most Irish management) and begin setting up graduate or no-experience needed programs for developers, they would give themselves a ready-made supply of developers every 12 months. And if they only kept the best on, well then in a few years they have a pool of experience devs to draw from.

It isn't an alien concept it is an unrealistic concept. Have you any idea what the return would be on this? From a companies point of view you hire in some graduate and train them up at the companies expense. Then when that is finished how many will stay? Maybe you just spent 10k getting them up to speed and now they can command an larger salary. Do you pay them more even though that expertise was already your cost? If you don't they go to another company.
Maybe you retain 50% of people you trained. It took 1-2 years to get them there. How long before you recoup that expenditure? Is it cheaper to hire somebody experienced from the start?
Say if you are a small IT company can you afford to take that risk? You still have to show an experienced person a lot about your product, normally 3 months before a person is really up to speed.
There is actually a place for a scheme/company to do this but it would need to be a lot more structure. Jobsbridge could have done this but unfortunately reputation, abuse and negative public image make that hard.

Elessar · 12-05-2014 12:50PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It isn't an alien concept it is an unrealistic concept. Have you any idea what the return would be on this? From a companies point of view you hire in some graduate and train them up at the companies expense. Then when that is finished how many will stay? Maybe you just spent 10k getting them up to speed and now they can command an larger salary. Do you pay them more even though that expertise was already your cost? If you don't they go to another company.
Maybe you retain 50% of people you trained. It took 1-2 years to get them there. How long before you recoup that expenditure? Is it cheaper to hire somebody experienced from the start?
Say if you are a small IT company can you afford to take that risk? You still have to show an experienced person a lot about your product, normally 3 months before a person is really up to speed.
There is actually a place for a scheme/company to do this but it would need to be a lot more structure. Jobsbridge could have done this but unfortunately reputation, abuse and negative public image make that hard.

If by "train them up at the companies expense" you mean give them a wage, that will only be to the company's advantage later on. Yes there is a perceived "cost" on training but that is the same with any grad program. The reason firms offer these is so they will have the next generation of talent working for them.

Your argument could also be made for experienced devs. After a few years they too could go elsewhere, unless you up your offer, assuming they are still in demand. Company's will just have to pay the market rates for what they want, especially for in demand skills. If a grad gets the experience and knows he's worth more, he can leave or the company can adjust what it pays him to keep his talent. It's the same with any career.

It is a risk absolutely. But my main point was that if it's so difficult to find experienced devs on the market, this isn't going to correct itself unless firms take a different approach. Consider it an investment.

Ray Palmer · 12-05-2014 01:19PM

Elessar wrote: »

If by "train them up at the companies expense" you mean give them a wage, that will only be to the company's advantage later on. Yes there is a perceived "cost" on training but that is the same with any grad program. The reason firms offer these is so they will have the next generation of talent working for them.

Your argument could also be made for experienced devs. After a few years they too could go elsewhere, unless you up your offer, assuming they are still in demand. Company's will just have to pay the market rates for what they want, especially for in demand skills. If a grad gets the experience and knows he's worth more, he can leave or the company can adjust what it pays him to keep his talent. It's the same with any career.

It is a risk absolutely. But my main point was that if it's so difficult to find experienced devs on the market, this isn't going to correct itself unless firms take a different approach. Consider it an investment.

You completely missed the point if you think paying people is the cost of training. There is not a perceived cost their is an actual cost. A junior developer costs money to train by actually being sent on courses, taking an experienced person out of their income generating role to train staff, the time taken to hand hold a junior staff.
You can actually sit down and work out the cost of a junior/inexperienced developer. 10k is cheap.
Junior staff need a lot of hand holding and can make costly mistakes if you don't do it. They make costly mistakes even at that.
Have you ever dealt with a graduate program? I have in a few different companies. They are not hired to replace staff. They are hired to make billable hours most times. The drop out rate is very high. Some companies hire them on fixed term contracts and cut them loose once they ask for higher wages. Again smaller companies can't afford this.

What exists isn't working but what you are suggesting is even worse than that. Plain and simple if you had a company and you could hire a junior member of staff that would cost you €25k a year plus €10k in training versus 1 year experience at €27k-30k what would you do? Mean while you still have a deadline and need your experienced staff to be at peak performance.

A real solution is needed not a hypothetical wishful thinking option. Have you any idea how clueless and arrogant graduates are when they join companies. They think their great college results mean they are owed a great job but miss lots of element. Hearing a recent graduate moan about a company is very irritating and they often get simple things like be careful what you say near clients wrong. Getting them to follow procedure is way more difficult than it should be.

An extra 2,000 work permits a year will be created for foreign ICT professionals

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