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Questions for Greenkeepers?

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13

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    #62
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Hi Fescue, thank you for your contributions, they are excellent.

    My question is about bunkers. Is it difficult to achieve great bunkers, difficult to maintain & expensive?
    My home course is in the top 100, an excellent parkland course with terrific conditions, apart from the bunkers! Absolutely abysmal. Very little sand, rock hard & require fighter pilot precision to pick the ball out of them. Forget about thinking splash as the wedge would be likely to bounce back & hit you in the forehead!
    So they are now talking about doing something with them this winter. Club is cash rich (but with short arms!) so what should we be expecting in your opinion?
    GreeBo wrote: »
    When were they last redone?
    Every ten years or so a bunker needs to be rebuilt. All the drainage will eventually fill up with the fine sand and get blocked, leading to flooding and compaction. There is only so much that raking can do.
    So, if its been anywhere near ten years chances are they need to be totally redone, its natural, a bunker cant and wont last forever.


    Bunkers are without doubt the most talked about topic at the moment amongst golfers. Greenside bunkers should contain somewhere between 4 to 6 inches of sand, thats a USGA recommendation. Fairway bunkers can contain somewhere closer to 3 to 4 inches. There is a specification in terms of particle size and shape for bunker sand that I won't go into as it'll bore you all to tears. Links bunkers usually use sand indigenous to the course so the USGA recommendations don't apply there as such but you would expect the same depth of sand regardless.

    Greebo is correct in so far as bunkers tend to have a lifespan but that will vary from course to course and bunker to bunker. Silt run off from surrounding areas tends to be the main culprit in contaminating bunkers and their drainage potential.

    Replacing contaminated sand regularly is one method of tackling the problem but this is very expensive. Eventually the bunkers need to be redrained and new sand brought in but this is an expensive procedure that some clubs might not be able do. I'd imagine this is what the op's club will be doing.

    The other culprit is the water table, this can be more difficult to overcome but requires drainage or raising the bunker up completely.


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    #63
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    josie19 wrote: »
    My understanding was this was a discussion forum and not a Q&A session.

    Not sure why you think a green keepers view is relevant to your question but I'd be very surprised if he said anywhere outside the bunker. Otherwise he would have to get off the mower and move the rake to cut the grass around each bunker.

    We will await Fescue's reply so

    It does make life easier but it also makes more sense to me. The rake should be part of the hazard.


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    #64
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    Dbu wrote: »
    Good thread,
    Question for ya,
    Is it just my opinion or were greens in better condition when we were allowed to wear spikes in our shoes?
    cheers

    I would say greens have never been in better condition than at any time before. I don't think this has anything to do with footwear mind.

    Spikes are fine if the golfer knows how to walk with them correctly. When I have seen them used before, I notice a lot of scraping and twisting, usually close to the cup. Some have suggested they acted as mini-aerators though!


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    #65
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Fescue wrote: »
    Replacing contaminated sand regularly is one method of tackling the problem but this is very expensive. Eventually the bunkers need to be redrained and new sand brought in but this is an expensive procedure that some clubs might not be able do. I'd imagine this is what the op's club will be doing.

    I guess I'll have to start stretching the committee's arms!


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    #66
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    First Up wrote: »
    Great thread Fescue.

    I'd welcome your comments on drainage, which I think is going to become a bigger and bigger issue as our winter weather is predicted to get wetter and wetter. There is huge variation between courses and I assume this is due to some combination of the terrain and the amount of artificial drainage installed.

    There are courses that drain superbly well and courses that get mucky around October and stay that way until the following May. Of course any course will flood for a short time in a deluge but a good course will clear in a few hours, whereas a bad one will be closed for days.

    What should we expect from a properly constructed and maintained parkland course? I see some people being very philosophical and accepting about bad course conditions but I really think they are selling themselves short. I think it can be done properly with the right investment.

    Drainage is such a complex area that you would need the advice of an expert to get any sort of real handle on it. I have a limited understanding of the issue but I'll shed what little light I can on the subject.

    Firtly, the type of soil has a huge bearing on the ability of a site to drain well. This varies widely from course to course. This in my opinion is the most crucial aspect of good drainage. Some courses were built on sites that will never drain well.

    Links land is obviously the best place to put a golf course and thats where the first golfers put them. The fact they drain so freely makes them somewhat infertile which attracts the finer grasses and you get ideal golfing conditions.

    Many of the newly built courses have suffered from poor drainage because in building them, millions of tonnes of soil was moved. This has totally destructered the soil, meaning the soil itself doesn't, as of yet, drain properly. In time channels will develop and this should improve.

    The best soultion to a poorly draining course is drainage but you should employ a consultant with real expertise to get it right if you're planning a big project. Its such a complicated area. You have the true water table, localised perched water tables, correct gradients etc...


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    #67
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    For Paws wrote: »
    I am under the impression that greenkeepers utilise a machine, which is powered by a PTO shaft from a tractor to agitate bunker sand. I understand GreeBo's point about settlement & compaction but surely the regular use of an 'agitator' would minimise the problem.
    Also, is it not the case that the fine 'quartz' sand used in Links and Championship courses is not generally the same sand used in most parkland courses which is more subject to compaction ?

    (By 'agitate' I mean move / shake / mix up. Not 'agitate' as in excite or annoy.
    Nobody wants an annoyed bunker)

    I have never seen the machine you speak of in action, nor do I know anything about it to be honest.

    You actually want to use a sand that compacts in bunkers. The sand in the bunker should be somewhat compacted with the top few inches raked. The USGA recommend sand for parkland courses with this attribute.

    shape2.jpg

    The sand on the bottom left is ideal for Bunker sand. The sand on the top right ideal for topdressing or green construction

    When sand gets wet then it becomes severly compacted which is not ideal. Wet bunkers are a pain but this is Ireland, bunkers will become wet and flood.


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    #68
    m r c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 802 ✭✭✭m r c


    What would you describe as the main things that irritate you as a golfer about greenkeepers?[/quote]

    The only thing that pops into my head is maybe place the pins in positions that won't leave me looking like a total eejit all the time :-)

    I haven't ever seen anything out of the way from green keepers ever. They really keep to themselves and IMHO blend into the course like you wouldn't know they were there.

    I'm a member in Strandhill and the place is fantastic all year round. I'd like to give our green keepers credit here they do brilliant work.


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    #69
    dan_ep82
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭dan_ep82


    m r c wrote: »

    I haven't ever seen anything out of the way from green keepers ever. They really keep to themselves and IMHO blend into the course like you wouldn't know they were there.

    I mentioned to the greenkeeper at my usual course today that having him watch me usually means I hit a bad shot.

    It's all on me and my nerves of having someone who's pretty good (9 HC) watch my swing but after that I noticed him sneaking around behind the backs of tree's etc when near a fairway/tee-box I was on.
    It was almost like a game of hide and seek and I had a good laugh about it but afterwards I made a point of not stalling to get a "clear" shot :o


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    #70
    shaneon77
    Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭shaneon77


    m r c wrote: »
    What would you describe as the main things that irritate you as a golfer about greenkeepers?

    I played Westport this time last year and a funny thing happened. I was first out on my own and caught up to a greenkeeper mowing around trees to the right of a fairway. He stopped for me so I politely put the ball in ahead of him near the trees. He then drove over my ball.
    I dropped a ball out and he stopped again. I pushed it out to the right and the greenkeeper drove over it again!!
    what could I do??


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    #71
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Fescue wrote: »
    Drainage is such a complex area that you would need the advice of an expert to get any sort of real handle on it. I have a limited understanding of the issue but I'll shed what little light I can on the subject.

    Firtly, the type of soil has a huge bearing on the ability of a site to drain well. This varies widely from course to course. This in my opinion is the most crucial aspect of good drainage. Some courses were built on sites that will never drain well.

    Links land is obviously the best place to put a golf course and thats where the first golfers put them. The fact they drain so freely makes them somewhat infertile which attracts the finer grasses and you get ideal golfing conditions.

    Many of the newly built courses have suffered from poor drainage because in building them, millions of tonnes of soil was moved. This has totally destructered the soil, meaning the soil itself doesn't, as of yet, drain properly. In time channels will develop and this should improve.

    The best soultion to a poorly draining course is drainage but you should employ a consultant with real expertise to get it right if you're planning a big project. Its such a complicated area. You have the true water table, localised perched water tables, correct gradients etc...

    Thanks
    From what you say it sounds as if some courses are beyond help. In the present climate, iti is unlikely much new money will be invested in improving drainage so whatever is there now, is as good as it will get.
    I suppose the older courses are generally OK but some of the newer ones got it right as well. I wonder how carefully the soil was assessed when the sites of some courses were chosen. In cases where farmers decided to convert farmland, probably not a lot.


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    #72
    Gin77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 252 ✭✭Gin77


    Fescue wrote: »
    I would say greens have never been in better condition than at any time before. I don't think this has anything to do with footwear mind.

    Spikes are fine if the golfer knows how to walk with them correctly. When I have seen them used before, I notice a lot of scraping and twisting, usually close to the cup. Some have suggested they acted as mini-aerators though!

    Ever thought of writing a book unique to Ireland on green keeping.
    I'd read it.


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    #73
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    First Up wrote: »
    Thanks
    From what you say it sounds as if some courses are beyond help. In the present climate, iti is unlikely much new money will be invested in improving drainage so whatever is there now, is as good as it will get.
    I suppose the older courses are generally OK but some of the newer ones got it right as well. I wonder how carefully the soil was assessed when the sites of some courses were chosen. In cases where farmers decided to convert farmland, probably not a lot.

    not beyond help- just need to spend money.
    we had to spend 20k out so this year on drainage on two holes.
    despite being the highest post of the course (by far) the areas around the 3rd and 17th greens never drained well, the fairways would always be soggy and big like in winter, a real mess.

    we put in dune herring bone style drainage for about 50m on each hole, both draining away down the fairways into run off areas and it's immediately better. it takes a while for the fairway to settle back. but worth it.

    they dug down 10ft and the ground was rotten, waterlogged clay the while way, smell was horrendous. and this would have been all natural ground, no landscaping at all.

    it's obviously cheaper to do it when building a new course, but it's not prohibitive to retro fit in some problem areas either.


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    #74
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    GreeBo wrote: »
    not beyond help- just need to spend money.
    we had to spend 20k out so this year on drainage on two holes.
    despite being the highest post of the course (by far) the areas around the 3rd and 17th greens never drained well, the fairways would always be soggy and big like in winter, a real mess.

    we put in dune herring bone style drainage for about 50m on each hole, both draining away down the fairways into run off areas and it's immediately better. it takes a while for the fairway to settle back. but worth it.

    they dug down 10ft and the ground was rotten, waterlogged clay the while way, smell was horrendous. and this would have been all natural ground, no landscaping at all.

    it's obviously cheaper to do it when building a new course, but it's not prohibitive to retro fit in some problem areas either.

    For sure you can solve anything if you spend enough but I can't see clubs already struggling being willing or able to shell out (or borrow) enough to solve deep seated drainage problems. I doubt NAMA would see that as an attractive strategy for their soggier properties.


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    #75
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    Gin77 wrote: »
    Ever thought of writing a book unique to Ireland on green keeping.
    I'd read it.

    Perhaps but I'll get 40 years more experience before I do it!

    If any of you are genuinely interested in greenkeeping and the history of golf, then "Practical Greenkeeping" by Jim Arthur is a great read. The Bible for us Links greenkeepers.


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    #76
    Senecio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭Senecio


    Are you ever consulted in any course architecture changes at your club? For example if changes were proposed for a hole would the club seek your input on maintenance costs or even feasibility of the changes.

    Years ago my home club spent a small fortune re-routing a hole and adding bunkers only to undo it at more cost because they didn't listen to the advice of our green keeper.


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    #77
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    Senecio wrote: »
    Are you ever consulted in any course architecture changes at your club? For example if changes were proposed for a hole would the club seek your input on maintenance costs or even feasibility of the changes.

    Years ago my home club spent a small fortune re-routing a hole and adding bunkers only to undo it at more cost because they didn't listen to the advice of our green keeper.

    The club I work at have an architect on a retainer so most of the design work is done by him. His biggest critic will be the membership. The greenkeeping staff would have no real input into changes made.

    On the one hand thats absolutely fine, he's an architect, we are not. Perhaps there might be some merit in discussing things in terms of maintenace. Some design features can be difficult to maintain and we have in the past reworked some of these features so they can be maintained properly. For example, severe slopes that can't be mown, fertilised, topdressed properly.


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    #78
    realgolfgeek
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭realgolfgeek


    How has the recession affected Greenkeepers ?
    Has it been easy to get employment at other courses ?
    Is there a different industry, or different area of golf that an unemployed green keeper could easily slot into ?

    Maybe off topic, but just curious.


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    #79
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    realgolfgeek wrote: »
    How has the recession affected Green Keepers ?
    Has it been easy to get employment at other courses ?
    Is there a different industry, or different area of golf that an unemployed green keeper could easily slot into ?

    Maybe off topic, but just curious.

    The recession has hit greenkeeping really hard. When a club is struggling reducing staff numbers is an obvious approach. Job vacancies are almost non-existent.

    Landscaping work is another avenue for greenkeepers but this has probably been hit just as hard. There is a lot of work available abroad though. If you're prepared to do that. Greenkeepers might also find work as Groundsmen on pitches etc but there aren't many opportunites here in Ireland.

    There are now no training courses available for aspiring greenkeepers in Ireland anymore also.


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    #80
    quadboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭quadboy


    Fescue wrote: »
    The recession has hit greenkeeping really hard. When a club is struggling reducing staff numbers is an obvious approach. Job vacancies are almost non-existent.

    Landscaping work is another avenue for greenkeepers but this has probably been hit just as hard. There is a lot of work available abroad though. If you're prepared to do that. Greenkeepers might also find work as Groundsmen on pitches etc but there aren't many opportunites here in Ireland.

    There are now no training courses available for aspiring greenkeepers in Ireland anymore also.

    I just started a greenkeeping course


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    #81
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Which jobs do everyone want to do and which jobs do no one want to do on the course?

    e.g. does everyone want to be lashing up and down the greens on the sidewinder and trying to avoid bunker maintenance?

    Do you enjoy the large projects more than the general day to day?
    (e.g. laying new drainage or sprinkler systems or building a new tee box compared to (again!)bunker maintenance)?


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    #82
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    quadboy wrote: »
    I just started a greenkeeping course

    Oh right! What course is that? The Fetac Level 6 Course at Kinsealy has been cancelled as far as I am aware.


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    #83
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Which jobs do everyone want to do and which jobs do no one want to do on the course?

    e.g. does everyone want to be lashing up and down the greens on the sidewinder and trying to avoid bunker maintenance?

    Do you enjoy the large projects more than the general day to day?
    (e.g. laying new drainage or sprinkler systems or building a new tee box compared to (again!)bunker maintenance)?

    In general I would say when people come into it first, mowing is the favoured job amongst staff. After a while I think the other tasks are more enjoyable.

    Personally I enjoy taking on projects and renovations. More satisfaction even if the work is harder.

    I quite like bunker work but in general, I think its the least favoured job.


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    #84
    quadboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭quadboy


    Fescue wrote: »
    Oh right! What course is that? The Fetac Level 6 Course at Kinsealy has been cancelled as far as I am aware.

    Level 6 down in cork, theres about 24 in the class


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    #85
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    quadboy wrote: »
    Level 6 down in cork, theres about 24 in the class

    Thats good to hear, its finished for now in Dublin though it may return in the future.


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    #86
    Ally McIntosh
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ally McIntosh


    Fescue wrote: »
    The club I work at have an architect on a retainer so most of the design work is done by him. His biggest critic will be the membership. The greenkeeping staff would have no real input into changes made.

    On the one hand thats absolutely fine, he's an architect, we are not. Perhaps there might be some merit in discussing things in terms of maintenace. Some design features can be difficult to maintain and we have in the past reworked some of these features so they can be maintained properly. For example, severe slopes that can't be mown, fertilised, topdressed properly.

    If a club are serious enough to get an architect involved in upgrade work, it really is his duty to work with the team at the club and take in to consideration any local maintenance issues - no point designing features that are impossible or extremely costly to maintain.

    The problem I find at some clubs is the understanding of where the demarcation occurs between an excellent head greenkeeper and a designer. I’ve seen quite a few cases that go like this: Greenkeeper does his base job excellently and makes a big difference to the presentation and condition of the course. Course committee therefore begin to trust greenkeeper implicitly and allow him more of a free hand. Greenkeeper then starts to make changes that crosses over in to the realm of design, often with misguided results.

    If there are any structural changes to the course happening, it is usually worthwhile having a consultant architect on a small retainer just to guide the process and keep it in line with past decisions. The best course upgrades occur when there is a consistent team that are pulling in the same direction over a number of years.

    Fescue – Great answers on this thread. Very concise and clear. Thanks.

    Ally


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    #87
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    I just thought I would bring this thread back up, perhaps I can answer some more questions that you guys might have?


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    #88
    PARlance
    Registered Users Posts: 21,106 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Fescue wrote: »
    I just thought I would bring this thread back up, perhaps I can answer some more questions that you guys might have?

    I encountered greens that had been scored / lined* recently for the first time Fescue, what's the reasoning behind this etc?

    *Not sure the technical name for it. The green looked like it had tiny lines cut into it approx 1cm apart.


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    #89
    fullstop
    Registered Users Posts: 11,340 ✭✭✭✭fullstop


    PARlance wrote: »
    I encountered greens that had been scored / lined* recently for the first time Fescue, what's the reasoning behind this etc?

    *Not sure the technical name for it. The green looked like it had tiny lines cut into it approx 1cm apart.

    Sounds like scarifying, done to remove dead grass/ reduce thatch from the roots and help growth.


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    #90
    Fescue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Fescue


    fullstop wrote: »
    Sounds like scarifying, done to remove dead grass/ reduce thatch from the roots and help growth.

    I'd agree with that fullstop. Scarifying is a great way of removing thatch. Great for the health of the green.


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    #91
    Dr_Colossus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,134 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    I played Lucan at the weekend and the greens were probably the best greens anywhere I've ever played. They were unreal, so fast, true, consistent and blemish free and where a joy to put on. Given it's still quite early in the year the conditioning was seriously impressive. I don't know what speed they were running on the strimp meter but as part of the cutting and maintenance process believe they iron the greens after cutting.

    Now the question, given that hollow tining is to improve aeration and compaction within the greens what are your views on ironing? Would it's regular use require additional hollow tining and similar invasive maintenance throughout the year or is it just a means of rolling the greens smooth and fast after cutting? Also given that hollow tining and sanding often leaves greens bumpy for weeks would ironing them help with the recovery? Thanks.


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