Tomorrows Financial Times article slams Ireland's failed state as warning to Scots

Kermit.de.frog · 02-05-2014 03:55AM #1

wow, just wow!

Put "Ireland FT" in to google search and you can read the full article

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cd89f3f0-d08b-11e3-9a81-00144feabdc0.html#axzz30WTOw3Rk

A lot of truth in it in fairness but it's also a ruthless attack.

I think we, in the Republic of Ireland, will be seeing more of this in the run up to Scottish independence.

That is a horrible article that will be in the FT later today. Author has an Irish name funnily enough.

We do have one good historical model of what it is like to carve out a nationalist state from within the political union of the UK but it is not one the SNP is keen to cite.

For Ireland’s nationalist leaders Padraig Pearse and Eamon de Valera, nationhood could be hewed out in blood and rebellion. But the Irish Free State that arose in the 1920s was a parochial disaster – a backward step even from English rule, which was far from benign

...

Single-party misrule was to last for decades. Economic fortunes sank. Irish Taoiseachs – prime ministers – such as Charles Haughey almost openly looted the state’s treasuries. Far from being economically independent, the Irish punt was slave-pegged to the English pound. In all but name Ireland remained an economic vassal of the UK Treasury.

Lapin · 02-05-2014 04:02AM

They're a clever bunch that FT crowd.

Getting Saturday's paper out on a Friday !

Lapin · 02-05-2014 04:06AM

As for the article itself. I can find very little to disagree with in it.

Kermit.de.frog · 02-05-2014 04:06AM

Lapin wrote: »

They're a clever bunch that FT crowd.

Getting Saturday's paper out on a Friday !

It's actually in Saturday's paper. Top right hand corner of front page made me curious. They want to troll us clearly.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 02-05-2014 04:06AM

don't feed the trolls. even when they're writing in the FT

EDIT:
screenshot of the article if you're not bothered creating an FT account

http://i.imgur.com/sOofgtk.png

Lapin · 02-05-2014 04:09AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Author has an Irish name funnily enough.

Kevin Toolis was born in Edinburgh of Irish parents. He attended Edinburgh University and has lived in San Francisco, Namibia and London. He has written for the New York Times magazine, the Observer and the Guardian and screenplays for Universal Pictures. He now (2002) lives in London. He wrote the book Rebel Heart on the IRA.

Source

Kermit.de.frog · 02-05-2014 04:12AM

The premise seems to be we made a mistake and want to return. It's far from the first time since this crisis I have seen that in British newspapers. Perhaps they genuinely believe that narrative.

Kermit.de.frog · 02-05-2014 04:15AM

Lapin wrote: »

Kevin Toolis was born in Edinburgh of Irish parents. He attended Edinburgh University and has lived in San Francisco, Namibia and London. He has written for the New York Times magazine, the Observer and the Guardian and screenplays for Universal Pictures. He now (2002) lives in London. He wrote the book Rebel Heart on the IRA.

Source

But never lived in Ireland :rolleyes: Not uncommon for mouth pieces.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 02-05-2014 04:22AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The premise seems to be we made a mistake and want to return. It's far from the first time since this crisis I have seen that in British newspapers. Perhaps they genuinely believe that narrative.

I didn't pick up that from it, just an account of our early financial woes and the difficulties faced and mistakes made. Remember most people in Britain would be completely ignorant of Irish history, especially post Independence.

minidazzler · 02-05-2014 04:36AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The premise seems to be we made a mistake and want to return. It's far from the first time since this crisis I have seen that in British newspapers. Perhaps they genuinely believe that narrative.

That's not my reading of it at all....

Nothing about wanting to return, just that it took a hundred years to get some semblance of true "independence" Funnily enough, we're only more independent of the UK since we took the Euro and became dependent on Europe

pO1Neil · 02-05-2014 04:52AM

"Scots should recall poverty of Irish Free State". Should also recall the poverty of the famine in the 1840's or the slums of Dublin in 1900's when it was apart of the Union, which was a reason the 1913 lockout occurred.

suicide_circus · 02-05-2014 05:23AM

Kind of hard to argue with a lot of what he says but at the same time I am not sorry we left the union and it was the right thing ro do at the time.

Adyx · 02-05-2014 06:16AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Kind of hard to argue with a lot of what he says but at the same time I am not sorry we left the union and it was the right thing ro do at the time.

Right thing to do, certainly. But I don't think it was the right time. Obviously hindsight is great but I think we would have been better off then and now if the break with the union had came later.

suicide_circus · 02-05-2014 06:28AM

Adyx wrote: »

Right thing to do, certainly. But I don't think it was the right time. Obviously hindsight is great but I think we would have been better off then and now if the break with the union had came later.

Look those lads were sick of being ridden by a foreign monarch, 20/20 hindsight is great as you say, thrte is rarely a perfect time to revolt, there is always unfortunate fallout.

Merkin · 02-05-2014 06:41AM

Adyx wrote: »

Right thing to do, certainly. But I don't think it was the right time. Obviously hindsight is great but I think we would have been better off then and now if the break with the union had came later.

I think after centuries of oppression it was a case of now or never.

The FT piece is fine, it's factual and gives a stark insight into what the newly founded Republic was like, I have no issue with it.

Duckworth_Luas · 02-05-2014 06:54AM

Northern Ireland remained in the UK and look at the success story that has been! So Scotland, stay in the union and one day you may aspire to being the new Northern Ireland.

Ridiculous article. The No campaign must be getting worried!

LordSutch · 02-05-2014 07:38AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

For Ireland’s nationalist leaders Padraig Pearse and Eamon de Valera, nationhood could be hewed out in blood and rebellion. But the Irish Free State that arose in the 1920s was a parochial disaster – a backward step even from English rule, which was far from benign ...

Very true indeed, right up until the 1980s.
It did indeed take us many decades to arrive to the modern 'Multi National driven' Ireland we live in today.

Troy Lumberjack · 02-05-2014 07:57AM

"Toolis is a tool" says "The Son". Dreadful stuff. All vaguely true, but but you could slate any nation if you produced a focussed article with only one agenda. He could at least have mentioned hurling, or O'Bama, or somthing diddly-eidle, the Scots will be shaking in their sporrans after reading that, either with laughter or fear, not too sure which.

hfallada · 02-05-2014 08:03AM

Irish was an underdeveloped country after I independence. It was 40% employed in agriculture and industry was non existent because was the protectionist policies of the government. But when with our economy not in the best of state. Ireland overall is doing better than most of the UK .

Outside London most of the UK is a kip. All former industrial towns like Birmingham or Newcastle make Dublin look like Monaco. Irish incomes are still higher than the UK. And the UK sees Ireland as the biggest threat for foreign investment.

comongethappy · 02-05-2014 08:06AM

Well the British media must be pooping themselves at the thought of a 'Yes' vote.

Pretty sure the FT have hailed Ireland in the past as the model to follow.

moxin · 02-05-2014 08:11AM

Religion and its nutty followers took over in 1922, that's the root cause of why we didn't develop. Scotland does not have the same religious fundamentalists trying to rule the country now, he is comparing apples and oranges.

Irish Halo · 02-05-2014 08:31AM

In all but name Ireland remained an economic vassal of the UK Treasury.

To be fair to this point the UK was our biggest trading partner (apparently it's now the US?) and the Irish pound was pegged to the British pound 1:1 until 1979, which would leave us very constrained by the UK. Joining the EU is what has lessened this influence (it was one of the reasons we broke from the 1:1 pegging).

There are 3 problems for Scotland:
* They will keep the pound but economic decisions for this currency will be made in Westminster and the Scottish will have little or no say in this. (similar to Ireland for almost 60 years when we pegged to the pound)
* Their membership of the EU is not a foregone conclusion and will likely be resisted by nations with similar separatist movements (e.g Spain)
* Even if eventually let into the EU (it will be years before let in) taking the euro would be difficult as the economic rules will be more strictly enforced after the Greek fiasco (Greece should have not be eligible to take the euro).

Calibos · 02-05-2014 08:35AM

The Protestant establishment were correct in their warnings back then. "Home Rule is Rome Rule" did turn out to be true. It's no coincidence that our fortunes started improving as the churches grip loosened from the 60's and accelerated onwards.

Ironically it is the northern Protestants that are more fundamentalist in their religious outlook nowadays.

What heavy industry can you poach away from its sources of Coal and Steel and nascent electrification to an island on the western edge of Europe in 1922?

Transport infrastructures, communications etc make this not as big a problem for scots looking for investment in industry in 2014 than it was for us in 1922.

Dempsey · 02-05-2014 08:49AM

The article has a lot of merit. Becoming a republic had repercussions that still affect the country today, e.g. the civil war, relinquishing of the northern 6 counties.

When you read the history books, its completely understandable why we forced our way out of the empire and only an idiot would suggest going back would be a good idea

The Pheasant2 · 02-05-2014 08:57AM

All one has to do is compare the republic with Wales or Scotland to see that leaving the UK was the right choice.

Even within England, London apart, their other "great" cities, Manchester, Liverpool et al are kips.

Davarus Walrus · 02-05-2014 09:05AM

The Transformation Of Ireland 1900-2000 by Professor Diarmaid Ferriter gives a fair and nuanced account of both the social and economic conditions present in Ireland before and after independence. To say that every social ill present in Ireland was as a result of Catholic influence is a very simplistic view of the matter. Many other factors were at play.

Few things can so quickly turn the Internet cranks away from giving out about the state of this country as a man from Perfidious Albion giving out about Ireland.

steddyeddy · 02-05-2014 09:06AM

Actually used to read that paper until it resorted to trolling. Think I'll stick to New Scientist.

razorblunt · 02-05-2014 09:08AM

I tell you what, I'd rather we make our own mistakes than have the British make them for us, that's for damn sure.

I'm aware of the trivial use of "we", with me being an Irishman in Scotland!

suicide_circus · 02-05-2014 09:17AM

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

The Transformation Of Ireland 1900-2000 by Professor Diarmaid Ferriter gives a fair and nuanced account of both the social and economic conditions present in Ireland before and after independence. To say that every social ill present in Ireland was as a result of Catholic influence is a very simplistic view of the matter. Many other factors were at play.

Few things can so quickly turn the Internet cranks away from giving out about the state of this country as a man from Perfidious Albion giving out about Ireland.

Ive a lot of time for ferriter, wish he had worked in the college I went to.

jank · 02-05-2014 09:18AM

moxin wrote: »

Religion and its nutty followers took over in 1922, that's the root cause of why we didn't develop. .

How did religion make Ireland an economic backwater?

Ireland was poor and under developed up until recently due to successive government failures to liberalise the economy, protectionism, trade wars, its failure to open up trade with its neighbours, an emphasis on building an agrarian soceity and high taxes. These have NOTHING to do with religion.

elefant · 02-05-2014 09:24AM

Surely this is a grossly simplistic comparison of independence.
Ireland became independent in the 1920's, so something very similar is bound to happen to Scotland in 2014? Other than the fact that Ireland in 1922 and Scotland in 2014 are under British rule, what other similarities are there between the two? In the early 20th century most of the Irish population worked in agriculture, were in relative poverty and had next to no access to any modern technology or even communication outside local communities. Scotland is fully developed, wealthy country in the 21st century.

I'm sure if Scottish independence was won by a large armed conflict against the English the Scots might rightly be worried though. That would be a little bit more of a fair comparison.

Tomorrows Financial Times article slams Ireland's failed state as warning to Scots

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