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Season 4; Episode 4: 'Oathkeeper'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

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    #92
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    There was a warning in the ad before it, if you torrented it you wouldn't have got it though. In that case can't complain really.


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    #93
    ben.schlomo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    Lots of sensitive Simons around here after that epsiode. It wasn't overly graphic at all, nothing being done was a main scene, some background stuff which was mostly noisy and off camera almost. Decent episode, big improvement on previous week. More Tyrion/Jaime/Wights, less Dani/Sansa, no Sam/Gilly.


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    #94
    Naydy
    Registered Users Posts: 189 ✭✭Naydy


    Da Shins Kelly wrote: »
    Yeah, that episode could nearly have done with a trigger warning, it was so over the top with the rape stuff. Like, was it really necessary to have a man visibly brutally raping a woman in the background while yer man is going on about "raping them til they're dead"? I mean, we get it. They're rapists. It doesn't need to be so heavy handed. Can't help but feel like some of that stuff is included deliberately by HBO just to fill their nudity quota and to be provocative. The objectifaction of women on the show continues to irk me.

    Totally agree. It's not necessary in my opinion, it's purely for shock value. If they were truly going for a gritty portrayal of life in Westoros, why aren't there more scenes of hanged soldiers ravaged by animals, people fighting over rats during the food shortage in King's Landing, murder of children, even men getting raped? Why is there a focus on the sexual crimes against women? You've more than got your point across, women were horribly exploited, can you stop with these scenes now please.


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    #95
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    It never showed the recruits arriving, would be unlikely a whole bunch would turn up out of the blue together. I reckon Locke joined up with a convoy headed for the wall like the one Yoren was leading in season 2.
    I supposed he'd have to. It's just a bit up in the air what the procedure is and I don't get how he could just volunteer to join the convoy then claim he was really a criminal who'd had his sentence commuted.


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    #96
    klose
    Registered Users Posts: 11,565 ✭✭✭✭klose


    If natalie dormer arrived out of nowhere into my bedroom at night time id die a happy man.


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    #97
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,330 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Glad to see there's finally some proper movement in Bran's story. Looks like Daenerys' story might start slowing to a crawl again now though.

    Best part of the episode was Tommen saying how Joffrey threatened to kill his cat and feed it to Tommen. Even after his death he's still the biggest pr*ck in the show :D


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    #98
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I just get the feeling as with Joffrey etc they're just trying a bit too hard to make us side with one lot as the good guys against the other lot as the bad guys. The watch must take all sorts, but recruiting mad murderer rapists etc must lead to some sort of trouble every day of the week. A bit like that show The Following. Put 100 crazies mass murderers in a house and there's not a bit of trouble amazingly!

    EDIT: Maybe the head Bolton guy could have pretended he was a poacher who had opted to go to the wall, with documentation and escort to prove it? Decent cover story then.


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    #99
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    The Daenerys storyline is causing problems for me. In terms of scale, her achievements dwarf anything going on in Westeros: she's taken three cities that each look vast compared to King's Landing and has an army big enough and lethal enough to annihilate any opposition in Westeros. And she has three dragons. It makes the focus of the show feel out of balance - a conquering queen ripping the known world to shreds and massacring the ruling class across the sea, a child who can possess human beings north of the Wall, and the show spends 75% of its time focusing on the people in the middle who are neither dragon-wielding forces of nature or crippled children in possession of a skill that could make them unstoppably lethal.


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    #100
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    desertcircus wrote: »
    The Daenerys storyline is causing problems for me. In terms of scale, her achievements dwarf anything going on in Westeros: she's taken three cities that each look vast compared to King's Landing and has an army big enough and lethal enough to annihilate any opposition in Westeros. And she has three dragons. It makes the focus of the show feel out of balance - a conquering queen ripping the known world to shreds and massacring the ruling class across the sea, a child who can possess human beings north of the Wall, and the show spends 75% of its time focusing on the people in the middle who are neither dragon-wielding forces of nature or crippled children in possession of a skill that could make them unstoppably lethal.
    That (and all the off-scene action) are my major gripes with this TV series, though I've a suspicion the books are what the RPGers would call "very low magic settings" too. The King's Landing business is just too soapy for my taste.
    Why would Dany particularly care about the other side of the narrow sea at this stage anyway. She has an empire bigger than anybody and doesn't look like the sort to slaughter her way to King's Landing just for the sake of claiming the Iron Throne.


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    #101
    Naydy
    Registered Users Posts: 189 ✭✭Naydy


    desertcircus wrote: »
    The Daenerys storyline is causing problems for me. In terms of scale, her achievements dwarf anything going on in Westeros: she's taken three cities that each look vast compared to King's Landing and has an army big enough and lethal enough to annihilate any opposition in Westeros. And she has three dragons. It makes the focus of the show feel out of balance - a conquering queen ripping the known world to shreds and massacring the ruling class across the sea, a child who can possess human beings north of the Wall, and the show spends 75% of its time focusing on the people in the middle who are neither dragon-wielding forces of nature or crippled children in possession of a skill that could make them unstoppably lethal.

    Ooh, maybe that's the big twist?! Oh, you know all those kings and betrayals and plotting and cute little battles you've had? Doesn't matter, cause one or two people with superpowers are gonna bulldoze through everything anyway, sorry.


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    #102
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Naydy wrote: »
    Ooh, maybe that's the big twist?! Oh, you know all those kings and betrayals and plotting and cute little battles you've had? Doesn't matter, cause one or two people with superpowers are gonna bulldoze through everything anyway, sorry.

    Matter by Iain M Banks has a plotline quite close to that. About one-third is Game Of Thrones-style medieval plotting and murders, and the remaining two thirds details what's going on several civilisational levels up the food chain, which is on an unimaginably vast scale compared to the sordid stabbings and murders.


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    #103
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,330 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    desertcircus wrote: »
    The Daenerys storyline is causing problems for me. In terms of scale, her achievements dwarf anything going on in Westeros: she's taken three cities that each look vast compared to King's Landing and has an army big enough and lethal enough to annihilate any opposition in Westeros. And she has three dragons. It makes the focus of the show feel out of balance - a conquering queen ripping the known world to shreds and massacring the ruling class across the sea, a child who can possess human beings north of the Wall, and the show spends 75% of its time focusing on the people in the middle who are neither dragon-wielding forces of nature or crippled children in possession of a skill that could make them unstoppably lethal.

    I don't agree. She has the dragons, sure. But there was only around 8,000 of the Unsullied, and the rest of her army are pretty much all slaves. Probably no more than 50,000 total. Stannis, after taking Renly's army had over 100,000 proper soldiers and he failed. He even knew Kings Landing's weak points and had hundreds of ships and was badly defeated.

    The Unsullied are probably some of the best fighters having been trained from birth, but they're still hugely outnumbered, and like the slaves in this week's episode said, the slaves don't know how to fight. Plus, she still needs to find a way to get her army across to Westeros.

    Her main advantage are the dragons, but they're not fully grown yet. So they're stretching out her story until then.


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    #104
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    I agree with the criticisms about that scene. It was way too much and the narrative justification for it is flimsy. We know Westeros is a **** place for women, every episode this season has highlighted that fact. I don't care what the fanboys think, the series has way too many of those scenes.


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    #105
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    ben.schlomo wrote: »
    Lots of sensitive Simons around here after that epsiode. It wasn't overly graphic at all, nothing being done was a main scene, some background stuff which was mostly noisy and off camera almost. Decent episode, big improvement on previous week. More Tyrion/Jaime/Wights, less Dani/Sansa, no Sam/Gilly.

    I think putting it just off a little bit in the periphery makes it worse personally. It was an extremely graphic scene by any standard. It's not needed (certainly not with 2 or 3 rape scenes already all within the last few weeks) and the episode wouldn't have lost anything by its omission. There's nothing puritanical about that.


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    #106
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,197 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Penn wrote: »
    Glad to see there's finally some proper movement in Bran's story. Looks like Daenerys' story might start slowing to a crawl again now though.

    Best part of the episode was Tommen saying how Joffrey threatened to kill his cat and feed it to Tommen. Even after his death he's still the biggest pr*ck in the show :D

    I burst out laughing at what felt like an overt reference to Eric Cartman.

    How is Daenerys going to feed this massive army she's gathering?


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    #107
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    But all that aside, it was an excellent episode. I just think, like someone else said, that there should be some more balance if they're going to depict all the gritty stuff.


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    #108
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I burst out laughing at what felt like an overt reference to Eric Cartman.

    How is Daenerys going to feed this massive army she's gathering?

    She'll probably need to put them back to work.


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    #109
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    desertcircus wrote: »
    The Daenerys storyline is causing problems for me. In terms of scale, her achievements dwarf anything going on in Westeros: she's taken three cities that each look vast compared to King's Landing and has an army big enough and lethal enough to annihilate any opposition in Westeros. And she has three dragons. It makes the focus of the show feel out of balance - a conquering queen ripping the known world to shreds and massacring the ruling class across the sea, a child who can possess human beings north of the Wall, and the show spends 75% of its time focusing on the people in the middle who are neither dragon-wielding forces of nature or crippled children in possession of a skill that could make them unstoppably lethal.

    Then you have the white walkers which will undo everything else. They are pretty much invincible as nobody really knows how to fight them. Nobody is going to care who poisoned a inbred brat of a king when they arrive.


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    #110
    naughto
    Registered Users Posts: 7,329 ✭✭✭naughto


    Grimebox wrote: »
    Then you have the white walkers which will undo everything else. They are pretty much invincible as nobody really knows how to fight them. Nobody is going to care who poisoned a inbred brat of a king when they arrive.

    Dident the fat lad kill one of them so I don't think there invincible.
    I doubt they would like the weather we are getting at the minute either
    Edit is there anybehinde the scenes floating about?


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    #111
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Dany's story line has hints that it might take a turn: Grey Worm's comment to Missandei might suggest some sort of backlash. Coupled with her not heeding the advice of Barristan Selmy. It won't be her first sting in the tail she's experienced.

    The number of story lines per episode seems fine imho. It's a fairly standard editing technique for multiple story lines and mirrors the books' format. (There was a Geoffrey Archer interview yesterday on NewsTalk about this kind of thing, where he explained how he wrote Cain and Able as two completely separate long sections only for his editor to insist on interweaving them in snappier sub-sections, resulting in a much more coherent read.)

    As for the brutality and treatment of women, that was established pretty much from the get-go. Perhaps a discussion on that would merit its own thread - it's a bit distracting from the episode-based discussion imho.

    And Hodor must survive. If he gets killed off, I'll be a very unhappy chappy. Hodor.


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    #112
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    naughto wrote: »
    Dident the fat lad kill one of them so I don't think there invincible.
    I doubt they would like the weather we are getting at the minute either
    Edit is there anybehinde the scenes floating about?

    By a blade that seems extremely rare. The vast majority wouldn't be able to fight them.


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    #113
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    The whole speed of seasonal change thing and invasion/retreat of species in Westeros sounds like it was lifted entirely from Aldiss' Helliconia series TBH.


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    #114
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The whole speed of seasonal change thing and invasion/retreat of species in Westeros sounds like it was lifted entirely from Aldiss' Helliconia series TBH.

    Nobody has an original thought any more


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    #115
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Grimebox wrote: »
    By a blade that seems extremely rare. The vast majority wouldn't be able to fight them.

    Wasn't it 'dragon glass' that killed the white walker?

    I wonder where they could get more dragon glass from if they needed it??


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    #116
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Grimebox wrote: »
    Nobody has an original thought any more
    Probably too harsh by me there... I guess he could have come up with it on his own. I wonder if he's ever been asked if there's a link? Helliconia was never filmed anyway (though it should be!) so I think it's more fair game.


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    #117
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Wasn't it 'dragon glass' that killed the white walker?

    I wonder where they could get more dragon glass from if they needed it??

    This website is good for information because you can easily avoid book related stuff. Dragon glass is obsidian which is made from volcanic rock, so maybe its not that rare. It does shatter on contact of a walker though. If the white walkers reproduce in such a strange manner, there probably isn't all that many of them.


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    #118
    ben.schlomo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    snausages wrote: »
    I think putting it just off a little bit in the periphery makes it worse personally. It was an extremely graphic scene by any standard. It's not needed (certainly not with 2 or 3 rape scenes already all within the last few weeks) and the episode wouldn't have lost anything by its omission. There's nothing puritanical about that.

    It was nowhere near as 'graphic' as last weeks, i dont remember the two others youre mentioning. The point of it was to show just how depraved, low and bad a character that the mutineer chap is. Therefore placing Bran in huge harm as a result and mking Jons arrival all the more urgent. So you think if a rape was in the forefront of the scene that would be better? More graphic and in your face style?


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    #119
    celica00
    Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭celica00


    Grimebox wrote: »
    Then you have the white walkers which will undo everything else. They are pretty much invincible as nobody really knows how to fight them. Nobody is going to care who poisoned a inbred brat of a king when they arrive.

    Thats wrong, Sam killed one with the dragon glass


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    #120
    celica00
    Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭celica00


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Wasn't it 'dragon glass' that killed the white walker?

    I wonder where they could get more dragon glass from if they needed it??

    you can also see in one episode how Sam digged a good few out and gave a bit of it later to Bran.

    So there is might more hidden somewhere?


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    #121
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I wonder where they could get more dragon glass from if they needed it??
    From somebody with a dragon?
    Is that a trick question? :)


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