Are you a nationalist?

markgisme · 23-03-2014 03:21AM

I used to consider myself Republican/Nationalist but now I'd say Imperialist which is quite odd.

MadsL · 23-03-2014 03:25AM

"People who enjoy waving flags don't deserve one"

Banksy

The Narrator · 23-03-2014 03:33AM

Imaginary lines drawn on a map.

Something like nationalism is just another separator between our species,
to go along with race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. etc.

Karl Stein · 23-03-2014 03:37AM

MadsL wrote: »

"People who enjoy waving flags don't deserve one"

Banksy

What if the flag reads 'Waving flags is dumb'?

William F · 23-03-2014 03:42AM

The Narrator wrote: »

Imaginary lines drawn on a map.

Something like nationalism is just another separator between our species,
to go along with race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. etc.

I agree. It also has its benefits like bringing different groups together under one flag so in a way it acts as a paradox.

I have no idea what St. Patrick's Day is about though. Irish people of different religious persuasions celebrating a Welsh guy who brought Christianity to Ireland?

I think it's significance as a national holiday should be challenged.

Sir Arthur Daley · 23-03-2014 03:43AM

Karl Stein wrote: »

What if the flag reads 'Waving flags is dumb'?

Is that a common occurrence?

Annasopra · 23-03-2014 10:08AM

Nope.

Nationalism is deeply conservative and obsesses with nations and borders. It creates barriers and differences.

jdawson · 23-03-2014 10:18AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nope.

Nationalism is deeply conservative and obsesses with nations and borders. It creates barriers and differences.

You're wrong on all counts.

Toby Take a Bow · 23-03-2014 10:24AM

orangesoda wrote: »

I've never gotten that 'born here by chance' thing, it is down to your parents where you were born, their choice. If you were born to some family in japan then you wouldn't be 'you'.

The point is that your parents might have got a visa for America or emigrated to London, in which case you would be American/British/whatever.

jdawson wrote: »

Spot on, it's easy to show up the ignorance and hypocritical nature of the "anti-nationalist" brigade.

That's just one example, it hardly applies to all people who are anti nationalist or at least suspicious of nationalism.

jdawson wrote: »

It's a pity more Irish people aren't nationalistic in terms of having a sense of nationhood (not the "hate everyone else" definition someone posted above), Ireland would be a much better place.

How would having a sense of nationhood necessarily make this a better place?

Quazzie · 23-03-2014 10:25AM

endacl wrote: »

Nationalism is meaningless. Except to the short-term thinker...

That video suggests that the "800 years" is tripe. I refuse to believe that the Wolfe Tones would lie to us,

Legs.Eleven · 23-03-2014 10:31AM

Despite all the arguments against it and as nonsensical as it seems to others, I'd generally be quite proud to be Irish because there's many things I love about the country. Many things I hate too, mind.

Do I think Ireland is superior to other countries and Ireland should only be for Irish people? No. Do I want the best for the country and things to improve for everyone living on the island because it's the place I was born and where I was very happy for 24 years of my life? Yes.

Toby Take a Bow · 23-03-2014 10:49AM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Despite all the arguments against it and as nonsensical as it seems to others, I'd generally be quite proud to be Irish because there's many things I love about the country. Many things I hate too, mind.

There are loads of things I love about this country too, but I don't get being proud of them. I had nothing to do with creating them.

UtopianWarlord · 23-03-2014 10:53AM

endacl wrote: »

Nationalism is meaningless. Except to the short-term thinker...

Why short-term, several states in that video existed for centuries

Anyway, I'd be somewhat I suppose. I don't really care about the north, but I like Ireland and will defend attacks on our Irishness or country. Maybe more so when abroad. Although I don't get offended by paddy jokes or the like that seems to be cause for national outrage here

Legs.Eleven · 23-03-2014 10:56AM

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

There are loads of things I love about this country too, but I don't get being proud of them. I had nothing to do with creating them.

As I said, it's nonsensical but it's how I feel.

Wacker The Attacker · 23-03-2014 11:04AM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

a 32 county republic has never existed and the people still 'fighting' for that would have no idea what to do with it if it ever became a reality. they would just 'retire' and live off 'protection money' from drug dealers and criminals while the smart people try to organise it all

Do you think?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 23-03-2014 11:08AM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Is nationalism something you identify with?

I must admit, I've never really gotten it myself. I was born in Ireland by a stroke of chance - same as everyone else. It's a nice place to live, but at the end of the day the idea of people perching on the rocks vaguely close to where they are born and exclaiming to the rest of the world of other people perched on their own rocks "this is my rock and my rock only" strikes me as a strange way to concieve of the international order.

That's without even getting into all the wars and violence borne out of nationalistic sentiment.

Perhaps other people feel differently?

Go live in Somalia if you can't make a distinction between Ireland and there so!
The country (Ireland) is what it is today presumably (not exclusively) because of the people who lived here before you, like your parents/grandparents/great grandparents and so on. They endured a lot of hardship to make here what it is today, and if you live your life here and raise your kids here you will have been one tiny factor of the whole sum that makes here what it is. You speak as this sort of onlooker who has no place in society (from your ivory tower ha ha) when in fact you play an active part in making this place what it is, however small that role is and whether it is a positive or negative one.
Nationalism in reality is nothing much beyond believing in the land that you stand on and the people you inhabit it with. Believing in whether it is a good or a bad place to stand is largely irrelevant, you have a stake in it, that makes you and pretty much everyone a nationalist essentially.
Taken to extremes it can lead to violence and ethnic cleansing and so on but in reality to most people it means living your life in a community you are happy to live in. You will only ever live your life in a relatively very small community of the entire world, having some faith and belief in that community is the definition of nationalism to me and it's a healthy and good thing that most people think the same way about it.

Whenever I hear someone say things like you just have I think of John Lennon, all the love in his heart for everyone and everything, a true citizen of the world, he cared for all that there is, it's just a pity all that love he had couldn't extend to spending some time with his son.

joe swanson · 23-03-2014 01:35PM

Nationalist, yes. But that does not mean i want to go round murdering innocent people or being violent....

anncoates · 23-03-2014 01:37PM

Nope.

Sometimes It's just politics for slow learners.

Toby Take a Bow · 23-03-2014 01:51PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Go live in Somalia

This argument (and the John Lennon one at the end of your post) make no sense. Just because you don't feel a nationalistic pride in the achievements of others who happen to be born within the same jurisdiction as yourself doesn't mean you should go and live in another country. And because John Lennon wasn't a good family man doesn't mean we all are.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Nationalism in reality is nothing much beyond believing in the land that you stand on and the people you inhabit it with. Believing in whether it is a good or a bad place to stand is largely irrelevant, you have a stake in it, that makes you and pretty much everyone a nationalist essentially.

I think you're assuming that someone who feels no nationalistic attachment to their country can't be a good citizen or participate in helping their community. This isn't the same as nationalism, despite how you may choose to define it. Although I must confess that I don't really understand what you mean by nationalism equating to 'believing' in your country. Believing what, exactly?

pragmatic1 · 23-03-2014 01:52PM

Everything that makes me, me, is a result of living in Ireland. From a baby I've been taken care of either by my family, the state or my community.I'm very proud of Ireland and Irish people.

bnt · 23-03-2014 02:20PM

I'm from Scotland, which has been in the news a lot, since there's an upcoming referendum on independence. Personally, nationalism really isn't a sufficiently-strong argument for independence: there has to be a strong economic case, and I think Alex Salmond and friends from the Scottish National Party (SNP) have dropped the ball on that one. Particularly the question of currency union: they don't seem to be learning the lessons from the Euro situation.

So you can tell that the economics are more interesting, to me, than the idea of nationalism or independence for its own sake. Managing the money properly is what makes or breaks a country, not nationalism.

orangesoda · 23-03-2014 05:22PM

Quazzie wrote: »

That video suggests that the "800 years" is tripe. I refuse to believe that the Wolfe Tones would lie to us,

in my part of the world it has only been less than 500 years since the gaelic clan system was broken down

orangesoda · 23-03-2014 06:46PM

UtopianWarlord wrote: »

Why short-term, several states in that video existed for centuries

Anyway, I'd be somewhat I suppose. I don't really care about the north, but I like Ireland and will defend attacks on our Irishness or country.

why? i don't mind monaghan and cavan people

Foxhound38 · 23-03-2014 07:52PM

star_man wrote: »

you sound comfortably middle class

Sounds can be decieving. What has class or lack of it got to do with this?

markgisme · 24-03-2014 11:01PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Sounds can be decieving. What has class or lack of it got to do with this?

A lot. Most middle class young people attend or will attend wealthy (Private) Second and Third level learning institutions and become subject to a lot of "West Brit" thinking and therefore learn and become "West Brits" themselves.

I know West Brit is a very rash term but it's exactly what most middle class people in and around Dublin are. They don't care about the greater Ireland once it doesn't affect them which is the same opinion a lot of people have these days.

I grew up experiencing this so I have some first hand experience of teachers directly influencing their students towards anti Republican and Nationalist sentiments.

"It doesn't matter to me so why should I care".

hatrickpatrick · 24-03-2014 11:05PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Is nationalism something you identify with?

I must admit, I've never really gotten it myself. I was born in Ireland by a stroke of chance - same as everyone else. It's a nice place to live, but at the end of the day the idea of people perching on the rocks vaguely close to where they are born and exclaiming to the rest of the world of other people perched on their own rocks "this is my rock and my rock only" strikes me as a strange way to concieve of the international order.

That's without even getting into all the wars and violence borne out of nationalistic sentiment.

Perhaps other people feel differently?

In my view it's about democratic control. The larger the population represented by a single leader, the less each individual's voice matters. Think of it like the teacher:pupil ratio in schools. I oppose things like EU political integration because constituencies for EU elections are so much vaster than constituencies for national elections - I'm actually in favour of going in the opposite direction, removing as much power as possible from central government and giving it to local councils instead.

The closer each individual is to those who make the law, the harder it is for vested interests to hijack it.

Foxhound38 · 25-03-2014 06:13PM

markgisme wrote: »

A lot. Most middle class young people attend or will attend wealthy (Private) Second and Third level learning institutions and become subject to a lot of "West Brit" thinking and therefore learn and become "West Brits" themselves.

I know West Brit is a very rash term but it's exactly what most middle class people in and around Dublin are. They don't care about the greater Ireland once it doesn't affect them which is the same opinion a lot of people have these days.

I grew up experiencing this so I have some first hand experience of teachers directly influencing their students towards anti Republican and Nationalist sentiments.

"It doesn't matter to me so why should I care".

That's an aweful lot of assumptions to be making based on my views towards the politics of nationalism there matey!

And it is always only a matter of time before someone was called a "West Brit" in a thread like this :rolleyes:

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

It means living your life in a community you are happy to live in.

I'm very happy to be living in the community I do. That doesn't make me a nationalist... it just means I live in a nice community.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

belief in that community is the definition of nationalism

What do you mean "belief in" here? I believe it exists? Still don't think that makes me a nationalist.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

Whenever I hear someone say things like you just have I think of John Lennon, all the love in his heart for everyone and everything, a true citizen of the world, he cared for all that there is, it's just a pity all that love he had couldn't extend to spending some time with his son.

magma69 · 25-03-2014 06:21PM

It's an outdated political ideal in most parts of the world. There was a time where nationalism served a purpose when imperialism and colonialism was the order of the day. I couldn't give a monkeys what flag is flown in my town. I know who I am.

on the river · 25-03-2014 06:46PM

magma69 wrote: »

It's an outdated political ideal in most parts of the world. There was a time where nationalism served a purpose when imperialism and colonialism was the order of the day. I couldn't give a monkeys what flag is flown in my town. I know who I am.

It's an outdated political ideal

I completly disagree. Nationalsim is alive and well in this country .

what flag is flown in my town

Well you should. Are past influences the present. We are shaped by

are ansestors struggles .

I know who I am

Well what are you so. A Monkey

magma69 · 25-03-2014 08:10PM

on the river wrote: »

I completly disagree. Nationalsim is alive and well in this country .

Well you should. Are past influences the present. We are shaped by

are ansestors struggles .

Well what are you so. A Monkey

A monkey with a far better grasp of the English language than yourself it would seem.

Just because political ideals still have support doesn't mean they're not outdated.

Why should I care what flag is flying? How does that affect my life or society?

I care about actual issues, like poverty, crime, unemployment. Things that actually affect people's lives in a real way and not some romantic notion of freedom.

Are you a nationalist?

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