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How to "un-baptize"/ Withdraw affiliation with RCC?

  • 10-03-2014 07:52PM
    #1
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭


    I have been an atheist for as long as I can recall, however like many of you went through the rigmaroll of baptism, communion and confirmation.

    I would consider myself fairly strong in my atheistic beliefs, and the thought of my name being in some archive somewhere declaring me a Christian irritates me.

    Obviously I haven't stepped foot in a church in years, and my morals could hardly be called catholic, so it would just be a symbolic thing really. But is there any conceivable way to actually formally check out? So to speak.


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Comments

  • #2
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    You can send a note to the parish office you were baptised in and they will add a note to their register that you no longer consider yourself a member, but they won't remove you from the register itself any more.

    Wouldn't consider it worth the effort myself though.


  • #3
    shroom007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 425 ✭✭shroom007


    There was a "count me Out" thing a few years ago.It was a website with information about this but Im a bit sketchy on the details


  • #4
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,573 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    There used to be a loop hole you could use, count me out.ie used to use it but then the Catholic Church closed it.

    So basically they won't strike you off their register anymore


  • #5
    shroom007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 425 ✭✭shroom007


    Convert to Islam then that should do it


  • #6
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    shroom007 wrote: »
    Convert to Islam then that should do it
    I seem to remember Benny saying something along the lines that apostates are still considered part of the church. So as long as you still give a shít about what they think, you just can't leave.


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  • #7
    shroom007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 425 ✭✭shroom007


    at least make a very clear will,least the f*ckers can't get ye when your dead


  • #8
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Its a name on a list OP, nothing to worry about.


  • #9
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its a name on a list OP, nothing to worry about.
    Been over this many times -- the church uses figures from the baptismal register to inflate its figures so it can attempt to influence local and national policy.

    Very much everything to worry about if, like many people here, you don't happen to like the church.


  • #10
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,979 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its a name on a list OP, nothing to worry about.

    My name on a list i would prefer it not to be on and which I was never asked if i wanted it to be on, as stated above they use this list to artificially inflate its dying support


  • #11
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    They don't have a list of current members, so there is no list you can ask to be removed from.

    They do have registers of baptisms, but they are simply records of the fact that on a give day and at a give place a baptism took place. You can't get that changed because, absent a Tardis you cannot alter the past.

    The register of baptisms is not treated as a list of current members, if only because the great majority of names in the register are of people who are long dead.


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  • #12
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    Been over this many times -- the church uses figures from the baptismal register to inflate its figures so it can attempt to influence local and national policy.
    I have many times asked for, and never been offered, a single example of the church using the baptismal register in the way described.

    Figures for church membership employed in public policy discussion in Ireland tend to be the figures from the census. The baptismal register is not treated as a register of members for the reason pointed out in the post above.


  • #13
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    If, without your approval, you were put on the register of "The league of intergalactic Unicorn rapists", would you want to be removed from that aswell? Being on the baptismal register of the Catholic Church is the same thing IMHO.


  • #14
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,374 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its a name on a list OP, nothing to worry about.

    Everything is A-OK provided it's a religion doing it. Yeah we got the message by now.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #15
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,374 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    If, without your approval, you were put on the register of "The league of intergalactic Unicorn rapists", would you want to be removed from that aswell?

    Feckin' right I would.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #16
    DK man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭DK man


    If you don't believe and think it's all codswollop then why r u worried about undoing something that you has no meaning!


  • #17
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Zed Bank wrote: »

    I would consider myself fairly strong in my atheistic beliefs,

    Curious as to what these beliefs are. I always thought it was non belief.


  • #18
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,374 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    DK man wrote: »
    If you don't believe and think it's all codswollop then why r u worried about undoing something that you has no meaning!

    Because it has a meaning to many people in this society.

    It also has a very significant meaning to a rather repulsive organisation I never freely chose to have any part of.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #19
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Cabaal wrote: »
    There used to be a loop hole you could use, count me out.ie used to use it but then the Catholic Church closed it.

    So basically they won't strike you off their register anymore

    I filled that stuff in a few years ago before the loophole closed and I got officially made a Heathen :D

    I got a lovely letter back from the Bishop and a parish priest in the parish I was baptised in. Nothing at all pushy, just like "best of luck with it!"

    Basically, I'm now barred from using Catholic Church ceremonies etc etc. Fine with that!


  • #20
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,374 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I thought 'why bother' at the time but now I deeply regret not doing that when I had the chance. (I want a guarantee of exclusion from any possibility of an RCC funeral.)

    They say atheists have no purpose in life, well my purpose in life is to oppose those bastards at every turn :p keep religion in churches, and out of hospitals, schools and our legislature.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #21
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'd say nowadays you'd just have to stop participating, do not fill in a religion on forms such as the census or anything like that etc etc.

    Unfortunately though, the Catholic Church itself won't allow you to leave anymore i.e. they'll keep counting you as a member regardless.

    I wonder actually if you could do something under the Data Protection Act i.e. they're refusing to amend an inaccurate database or to delete your records upon request.


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  • #22
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,374 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's not an inaccurate record, it's an accurate record of a historical event :rolleyes:

    We can't erase the past but what we want is our repudiation of it to be recorded!

    I'm going to write a nice chummy letter to Diarmuid asking him if he will bar my corpse from all churches under his jurisdiction :)

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #23
    aaakev
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭aaakev


    ninja900 wrote: »
    It's not an inaccurate record, it's an accurate record of a historical event :rolleyes:

    We can't erase the past but what we want is our repudiation of it to be recorded!

    I'm going to write a nice chummy letter to Diarmuid asking him if he will bar my corpse from all churches under his jurisdiction :)
    That needs a thread of its own if he replies!


  • #24
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    http://www.npr.org/2012/01/29/146046428/on-the-record-a-quest-for-de-baptism-in-france

    Apparently still going through the courts, I can't find a newer reference to it.
    OAP wins the first round to have the baptismal record deleted not just annotated, appeal by the RCC pending.


  • #25
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I too missed my chance with Count Me Out. For those who say seeking a de-baptism is pointless, well, I was signed up as a member of a misogynistic, corrupt, and predatory organisation without my consent and before I was capable of making the decision for myself. The RCC maintains that baptism changes you in the sight of their god. I never asked to be changed in any way, no matter how imperceptible, and I wish to be restored to my original state of being.

    If you truly believe that being on the membership list of an organisation you find repulsive is nothing to be concerned about why not send me on your details and I'll sign you up to NAMBLA. It's just a list, after all, it doesn't mean anything, it has no impact on your life.


  • #26
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    ninja900 wrote: »
    It's not an inaccurate record, it's an accurate record of a historical event :rolleyes:

    We can't erase the past but what we want is our repudiation of it to be recorded!

    I'm going to write a nice chummy letter to Diarmuid asking him if he will bar my corpse from all churches under his jurisdiction :)

    Why this curious dependence on the archbishop? Would you not just bar your own corpse from all the churches under his jurisdiction? And all the churches not under his jurisdiction, while you're at it?

    Take control! I honestly don't see the point of leaving the Catholic church, and then asking them to take over management of your funeral plans.


  • #27
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    http://www.npr.org/2012/01/29/146046428/on-the-record-a-quest-for-de-baptism-in-france

    Apparently still going through the courts, I can't find a newer reference to it.
    OAP wins the first round to have the baptismal record deleted not just annotated, appeal by the RCC pending.
    Appeal succeeded last September: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86512098&postcount=78


  • #28
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I wonder actually if you could do something under the Data Protection Act i.e. they're refusing to amend an inaccurate database or to delete your records upon request.
    The database is not inaccurate. It shows that you were baptised at such-and-such a place on such-and-such a date and that's (presumably) factually correct. The record does not include any implicit or explicit claim that this means you are a current member of the church, or that someone is "counting" you as a current member.

    Baptismal records would be covered by the Data Protection Act. In certain circumstances a data subject does have the right under the Act to ask to have the data relating to them erased, but generally you don't have this right unless you can show that the data controller has breached his obligations under the Act in the way that he processes your data. It seems to me that if your parents present you for baptism as an infant, and you are baptised, and an entry is made in the baptismal register to this effect, and that entry is thereafter left in the register, there's no breach there of the processing requirements under the Act. So to have any chance of forcing deletion of your register entry under the Act, you're going to have to show that something more has been done with your data, and that that something is a breach of a data processor's obligations under the Act.


  • #29
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,573 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ninja900 wrote: »
    I thought 'why bother' at the time but now I deeply regret not doing that when I had the chance. (I want a guarantee of exclusion from any possibility of an RCC funeral.)

    They say atheists have no purpose in life, well my purpose in life is to oppose those bastards at every turn :p keep religion in churches, and out of hospitals, schools and our legislature.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5i1cJIwE7M

    :pac::pac:


  • #30
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The database is not inaccurate. It shows that you were baptised at such-and-such a place on such-and-such a date and that's (presumably) factually correct. The record does not include any implicit or explicit claim that this means you are a current member of the church, or that someone is "counting" you as a current member.

    Baptismal records would be covered by the Data Protection Act. In certain circumstances a data subject does have the right under the Act to ask to have the data relating to them erased, but generally you don't have this right unless you can show that the data controller has breached his obligations under the Act in the way that he processes your data. It seems to me that if your parents present you for baptism as an infant, and you are baptised, and an entry is made in the baptismal register to this effect, and that entry is thereafter left in the register, there's no breach there of the processing requirements under the Act. So to have any chance of forcing deletion of your register entry under the Act, you're going to have to show that something more has been done with your data, and that that something is a breach of a data processor's obligations under the Act.

    Using the statistics from the records to support claims of membership could be construed as such a misuse.

    All the organisation could legitimately use them for is to say X persons were baptised and may or may not be members.

    It would be akin to me claiming that I have 400 staff if I ran a company that employed 400 people over the years but only ever 20 worked there at any given time.


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  • #31
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Using the statistics from the records to support claims of membership could be construed as such a misuse.

    All the organisation could legitimately use them for is to say X persons were baptised and may or may not be members.

    It would be akin to me claiming that I have 400 staff if I ran a company that employed 400 people over the years but only ever 20 worked there at any given time.

    To make a case under the DPA in relation to get your own baptismal record deleted you would need to show that your record specifically was being used to claim you specifically as a church member. Even if you could show that some bishop was claiming that everyone who was ever baptised was a churc member forever and, therefore, the Catholic church in Ireland has 17,000,000 members (or whatever the total number of Irish baptism is) I don't think that would be enough to show that your data in particular was being processed in a way that breached the Act.

    But in any event the claim that the Catholic church counts membership figures on the basis that everyone ever baptised is still a Catholic is unevidenced. If your going to bring a DPA action based on the claim that the church is counting Spacetime in its stated membership figures, you'll need some evidence that they are. The unsupported assertions of posters on A&A that this happens are not going to cut it.


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