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Irish Rail bans e-cigarettes

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 Fratton Fred


    Grindle = the Wibbs of the vaping forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    Grindle, excellent post and feck am I embarrassed at my mathematical blunder!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭ grindle


    Grindle = the Wibbs of the vaping forum.

    I'm going to bookmark that post and fap to it daily.

    Anyway, Wibbs is diplomatic. I am...*sobs*...not. WHY ARE YOU BEING MEAN TO WIBBS???

    Also, regarding the OP: I don't mind this ban, it was predictable.
    I'll still stealth-vape much like I do in pubs that've told me not to vape.
    No-one around me will know but they'll be looking around suspiciously, wondering which knave would dare vape Skittle-juice in their presence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,256 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Have a vape in the jacks.

    If these e cigs are so un smelly, who would know?

    Easy peasy, and no one is bothered.

    Buses and planes, not so easy!


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dr.bollocko


    Well to save grindle's keyboard, lets just direct any further discussion back to his post.


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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Stealth vaping is where its at OP.

    Just go into the bathroom and vape away. Same in Work, hospitals or wherever, vape till yer hearts content and go back and face the World/Begrudgers will a little grin on your face :)

    I vaped away in Hospital, no one smelled anything.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭ mathepac


    Gongoozler wrote: »
    ... Irish Rail have banned them from their train and DART services ...
    Great news. Thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,538 Arthur Beesley


    If they're going to start banning things that smell could they not start with stinky sandwiches? Or people who seem to have a casual approach to personal hygiene?

    Define 'casual approach to personal hygiene'. Does showering once a week count?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,701 ✭✭✭✭ bnt


    If people had sense, and paid attention to the effect they were having on those around them, there wouldn't need to be talk of banning things.

    Besides, I thought those things were a tool to get people off smoking altogether, not a permanent replacement?

    Parvi enim sunt foris arma, nisi est consilium domi.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    bnt wrote: »
    If people had sense, and paid attention to the effect they were having on those around them, there wouldn't need to be talk of banning things.

    Besides, I thought those things were a tool to get people off smoking altogether, not a permanent replacement?

    Well it tends to depend on who you ask on that score. Some people use them as a tool to help them to stop consuming nicotine others view them as a way of consuming nicotine that is less damaging then inhaling burning leaves.

    I agree with you about some people having no cop on about how they use them in crowded spaces though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭ leggo


    "It's hard to police. People will start smoking if they see people vaping."

    Absolute bollocks. I work in security for the dayjob and we have people in vaping every day (most do it on the quiet because they don't want to draw attention to themselves so you barely notice). When they first came out you got an initial, "Whoa, are they smoking?" shock, then took a millisecond to look at them and saw they clearly weren't. Nowadays nobody even blinks when they see someone's vapour. If it was an actual cigarette, you'd smell it the second they lit up.

    I work in DJing/events in bars as well as security. While I'm in the DJ box I'll vape away and I've never, in two and a half years, heard once of someone seeing me and thinking it was okay to smoke as a result. They'd be run out of the place with pitchforks as soon as someone got a whiff.

    "We don't know if they're as harmful as cigarettes yet."

    Yes we do, they're not. It's not even a science question, it's a maths one: e-cigarettes = cigarettes minus everything in cigarettes that give you cancer. That's less harmful.

    Every other argument down this avenue is based on faulty logic. One of the most idiotic posts that I've ever seen was in this thread saying, "We don't know that they're not harmful yet." That's like saying "We can't prove that aliens don't exist, so we better blow up the moon as a precaution in case they set up a base there." It's conspiracy theory logic. "Prove the US government WEREN'T responsible for 9/11." No, you conclusively prove that they were or STFU with your over-active imagination.

    You can't prove a negative. And the millions being spent trying to prove these are in some way bothersome are coming back inconclusive.

    If they are, one day, proven to be harmful then you deal with it then. Until then it's just nosy idiots getting thick about anything with the word 'cigarette' in it because their self-loathing compels them to lash out at people over matters that don't concern them. Talk to Joe, lads.

    "Why would Irish Rail ban them if they aren't harmful?"

    Simple.

    I used to run a club night that got quite popular, quite quickly. Unfortunately the manager in the venue was a bit ****e at his job. So while he liked the bar takings my night brought in, he didn't have the cop on to just let me carry on doing what was working as attendance picked up.

    When you DJ, there'll always be one fool who gets thick that their terrible song request didn't get played. Or some minger who can't handle their beer doesn't pull, and somehow it's the DJ's fault their night (spent guzzling a depressant and exposing themselves to a lot of insecurities they thought they had buried away deeply) wasn't amazing.

    So we'd get the odd complaint from these types despite the increasing business the night was doing. Bored and presumably wanting to look like he was doing his job, the manager asked me to stop doing what was working because of these 1-2 complaints, despite the fact they were having no affect on numbers whatsoever (funnily these people probably came back week-after-week, trust me it happens). It never occurred to him that maybe the exact thing they were complaining about was also part of the reason more people came, only the latter wouldn't call up to say that would they? You'd just see they were coming back.

    Bad managers respond to customer complaints without looking at the big picture, despite these complaints being a minority opinion.

    The reality here is that Irish Rail run a mile from any debate on the merit of their decision, they don't want to be drawn into the health discussion, yet this state-funded joke of a company (that needs to be sold off and privatised ASAP so they can start delivering standards again with the fear of being put out of a job for poor performance) wants to have their say anyway. So they pander to the loud minority who moan so it saves them having to pick up the phone and do their job again.

    This decision doesn't really affect me. It was handy to be able to vape on trains, but I'll live without doing it for 20-30 minute journeys (and if it's longer to the point it does I'll just do it in the bathroom where it'll still affect precisely zero people).

    But what bothers me is that Irish Rail took a dangerous stance that supports the anti e-cig mythology. And why? Because they're too lazy to deal with complaints. It almost makes me want to ring up every day and complain about e-cigs being banned, just to force them to have to pick up the phone and do exactly what they didn't want to to begin with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭ RollieFingers


    Why would people wanna smoke or vape on a DART anyways? Surely they could wait for the thirty minutes to an hour their commute takes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭ SoapMcTavish


    I've seen used needles on trains .. and heard of a few incidents where staff were injured by needles in bins - on trains and in the toilets at stations. That is a bigger fear for me than any vaping. I've warned my kid to never stick his hands down the side of seats etc while on a train .... feckin durty junkies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,483 Ostrom


    It ain't smoke, it's vapour.

    And no. There is barely any perceptible smell from them at all.

    The scented varieties smell disgusting - that manky, cheesy toilet duckish smell you get from lidl air fresheners. Also like the combination smell you get walking through the cosmetics section of a big department store.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,150 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    leggo wrote: »
    "this state-funded joke of a company (that needs to be sold off and privatised ASAP so they can start delivering standards again with the fear of being put out of a job for poor performance)

    not going to happen, they will shut and rip up the lot before it will and no private company is going to be interested (apart from dart) and no i'm not having my railway shut because irish rail is sold off and nobody is interested, give me the trains and money and i'l run it, sorry, back to the e-cigs now, i agree with you, and i think that shight manager you mentioned should be taken out and flogged and should be banned from managing anything

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    Ostrom wrote: »
    The scented varieties smell disgusting - that manky, cheesy toilet duckish smell you get from lidl air fresheners. Also like the combination smell you get walking through the cosmetics section of a big department store.

    Would the vast variety of perfumes and P&G products that people spray on themselves not be a bigger contribution to that smell though?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,604 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Surely all this plain packaging and no ads etc is based on the premise of trying to de-normalise smoking, removing it from the everyday so that less people get pulled into it.

    E-cigs are just another way are getting it normalised again. Do we want that?

    It is in effect drug taking. People have mentioned druggies etc but that is illegal, still goes on, but not in the way it would. Nicotine is a drug, and are people really saying that it is normal to go about their daily business taking a hit?

    What are the long term effects of nicotine use?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭ RossFixxxed


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Surely all this plain packaging and no ads etc is based on the premise of trying to de-normalise smoking, removing it from the everyday so that less people get pulled into it.

    E-cigs are just another way are getting it normalised again. Do we want that?

    It is in effect drug taking. People have mentioned druggies etc but that is illegal, still goes on, but not in the way it would. Nicotine is a drug, and are people really saying that it is normal to go about their daily business taking a hit?

    What are the long term effects of nicotine use?

    What are the long term effects: I honestly don't know and would be very curious.

    It is a drug: yeah but so is caffeine, alcohol etc too. They are psychoactive drugs. You have to take them one by one, you can't lump caffeine and methamphetamine together obviously. So I would be interested in the effects myself, but trying to lump it with illegal drugs is quite silly.

    (The inverse is also silly without any evidence too).

    Personally I hate nicotine, I loath the stuff and I want it gone from my life. It causes me anxiety that only nicotine can solve. It's a crappy, awful chemical but then I know people who feel that about caffeine.

    I don't drink and I don't like alcohol AT ALL for me. However, that doesn't mean I would blanket ban them either.


    TL;DR: I'm torn on the issue but nicotine not the same as crack not the same as caffeine not the same as blah blah blah.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭ leggo


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Surely all this plain packaging and no ads etc is based on the premise of trying to de-normalise smoking, removing it from the everyday so that less people get pulled into it.

    E-cigs are just another way are getting it normalised again. Do we want that?

    It is in effect drug taking. People have mentioned druggies etc but that is illegal, still goes on, but not in the way it would. Nicotine is a drug, and are people really saying that it is normal to go about their daily business taking a hit?

    What are the long term effects of nicotine use?

    Not really. People see e-cigs as the antithesis to smoking. It's seen as a sign you're quitting. Nicotine's effects are as harmful as caffeine, its lone purpose in the toxic cocktail of a cigarette is to get you addicted. It's the other stuff that does the damage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,604 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    leggo wrote: »
    Not really. People see e-cigs as the antithesis to smoking. It's seen as a sign you're quitting. Nicotine's effects are as harmful as caffeine, its lone purpose in the toxic cocktail of a cigarette is to get you addicted. It's the other stuff that does the damage.

    But if its part of quitting then having to go without on the train is actually good then!

    Nicotine, as I understand it is additive, so why would anybody willingly agree to buy a company's product knowing that it is addictive?

    By all means people can spend their money on whatever THEY wish, not sure it is a good idea to let new products into the market which we already know are addictive. Keeping E-cigs off trains etc means they will stay out of the mainstream so somebody taking them up will use them only sparingly


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,150 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Surely all this plain packaging and no ads etc is based on the premise of trying to de-normalise smoking, removing it from the everyday so that less people get pulled into it.
    no, strangely not, governments don't want people to give up because it brings in revenue, what this is about though from what i can see is governments wanting to be seen to be doing something about the problem (and shut the anti-smoking terrorists up) so they bring in things like plain packaging
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    E-cigs are just another way are getting it normalised again.
    no its not
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Do we want that?
    couldn't care a less to be honest, rather e-cigs then smokes, but if people choose to smoke its their life.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Rubberchikken


    agree fully with irishrail.
    but then i hate smoking, absolutely disgusting and utterly unnecessary for anyone to do.
    why people start in the first place is beyond me.

    ban those ecigs everywhere i say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 Fratton Fred


    agree fully with irishrail.
    but then i hate smoking, absolutely disgusting and utterly unnecessary for anyone to do.
    why people start in the first place is beyond me.

    ban those ecigs everywhere i say.

    Careful up there


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    agree fully with irishrail.
    but then i hate smoking, absolutely disgusting and utterly unnecessary for anyone to do.
    why people start in the first place is beyond me.

    ban those ecigs everywhere i say.

    ONE MORE TIME...

    Smoking involves burning tobacco leaves and inhaling the smoke caused. As a result smoke is released from both the smoker exhaling and the cigarette being burned between puffs. This smoke releases a vast array of nasty chemicals and a minute amount of nicotine into the atmosphere.

    Vaping involves heating a liquid mix of nicotine, flavouring, PG and VG and inhaling the vapour caused. As a result some vapour is released from the vaper exhaling. This vapour releases a minute amount of nicotine and ingridients commonly found in food and drink into the atmosphere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,201 ✭✭✭✭ rubadub


    stevenmu wrote: »
    rubadub wrote: »
    I find it funny/odd that people seem to think they have to back up a ban with some study.
    I don't find that odd at all. I think it's perfectly reasonable that we should only ban things which are demonstrably harmful. Otherwise we are basically just banning things because "I don't know what that is, but I don't like the look of it so it must be bad for you".
    My point is that many things & behaviours are banned which are not demonstrably harmful, so there should be no real surprise about this ban.
    grindle wrote: »
    Personally speaking and judging from anecdotal commentary around the world's vaping forums, nicotine is far less addictive outside of a cigarette.
    I expect many people (customers on the train) might think (without any study to back up their belief) that a child who starts vaping for a bit of fun might be more likely progress to real cigarettes. So the business probably values these customers opinions.

    I can fully understand why they would want the ban, even if there was proof it was 100% harmless. If cannabis was legalized and proven 100% harmless I would see people not wanting people using vapourisers in their business/service, as some customers might object -so in the long run they figure it is probably more profitable to have the ban.

    I can't find the post now, but some poster said something like "I gave up smoking and vaping was my only option", dunno if they had some physical problem with the numerous other nicotine devices out there, gum, lozenges, patches, tablets...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭ RossFixxxed


    rubadub wrote: »
    I can't find the post now, but some poster said something like "I gave up smoking and vaping was my only option", dunno if they had some physical problem with the numerous other nicotine devices out there, gum, lozenges, patches, tablets...

    Sigh. I'm a dope sorry rubadub I misread. I was saying vaping is as valid as patches etc, but on the train specifically why not use them? I actually agree on that point. Sorry for previous confusion.

    Personally as a smoker and ex vaper: I'd prefer the train/bus to be vape free. I just could do without it. A seperate comprtment would be fine for vaping imho. I don't want to be surrounded by plumes of vapour and the nauseating feeling it gives me. Mind you I'd say the same for booze, B.O etc so my argument has no weight other than my own feelings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,464 MonstaMash


    I found the nicotine patches useless...couldn't get a drag out of them at all ;):D


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭ stevenmu


    rubadub wrote: »
    My point is that many things & behaviours are banned which are not demonstrably harmful, so there should be no real surprise about this ban.

    Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah lots of stuff does get banned without solid justifiable reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭ leggo


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    But if its part of quitting then having to go without on the train is actually good then!

    Nicotine, as I understand it is additive, so why would anybody willingly agree to buy a company's product knowing that it is addictive?

    By all means people can spend their money on whatever THEY wish, not sure it is a good idea to let new products into the market which we already know are addictive. Keeping E-cigs off trains etc means they will stay out of the mainstream so somebody taking them up will use them only sparingly

    Believe it or not, I and other e-cig smokers have actually managed so far to get by in life without having some gruff **** from Irish Rail who can't even be bothered to research their decisions making life choices for me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,488 ✭✭✭✭ padd b1975


    agree fully with irishrail.
    but then i hate smoking, absolutely disgusting and utterly unnecessary for anyone to do.
    why people start in the first place is beyond me.

    ban those ecigs everywhere i say.

    +1.

    I cannot understand why anyone under the age of 30 could be so unaware of the health dangers of smoking (not to mention the antisocial stigma of the last 10 years) that they still make a conscious decision to start.


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