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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #3962
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Any chance of one piece of evidence supporting ID?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3963
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    SW wrote: »
    Any chance of one piece of evidence supporting ID?

    Don't hold your breath


  • #3964
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Again a statement steeped in the ridiculous !

    Creation was and still is a haphazard process, with new systems and stars etc still being born in the same way they always were.....
    Zero evidence of this Adam and Eve you write about....mere fairy tales nothing more
    There is no new life being Created (spontaneously or otherwise) anywhere that I am aware of.


  • #3965
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Any chance of one piece of evidence supporting ID?
    It needs you to co-operate by working logically through the evidence with me ... and so far, you have been declining to do so.

    I'm ready whenever you are.


  • #3966
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    You're correct ... actually nobody is perfect ... but all of Creation was originally Created perfectly ... until Adam and Eve Fell and introduced imperfection (disease and death) into the Universe.

    There is not one scintilla of evidence for this. Ergo, it is not true, it is as real as Cuchulainn or Robin Hood. Sorry JC.


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  • #3967
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Safehands wrote: »
    There is not one scintilla of evidence for this. Ergo, it is not true, it is as real as Cuchulainn or Robin Hood. Sorry JC.
    ... and such flat denials is why we need to change tack ... and work our way logically through the evidence ... rather than continuing to use the 'I say this ... and you say that' approach.


  • #3968
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Safehands wrote: »
    There is not one scintilla of evidence for this. Ergo, it is not true, it is as real as Cuchulainn or Robin Hood. Sorry JC.

    Well yeah, tha'ts how it's meant to be read not the way JC reads it.

    Mister Trebus
    Creation was and still is a haphazard process,
    You say that like it's a bad thing! I prefer the term random spontaneity myself.


  • #3969
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    ... and such flat denials is why we need to change tack ... and work our way logically through the evidence ... rather than continuing to use the 'I say this ... and you say that' approach.

    Show us the evidence, go on show us some real evidence. Lets work through it OK? Start at the beginning.


  • #3970
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    You say that like it's a bad thing! I prefer the term random spontaneity myself.
    ... Mutagenesis is random spontaneity allright ... and it invariably seriously damages genetic information and/or kills.


  • #3971
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    ... and such flat denials is why we need to change tack ... and work our way logically through the evidence ... rather than continuing to use the 'I say this ... and you say that' approach.

    Actually, when you think about it, there is far more evidence that Robin Hood was real than there is for Adam and Eve. Sherwood Forest exists we can go there, Nottingham exists, King John was real wasn't he? Long bows were used at that time. Nothing about Adam and Eve ever existed, not the Garden, not the special apple, the talking snake. It is all a fairy story, a bit like the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. Quite fantastical.


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  • #3972
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    It needs you to co-operate by working logically through the evidence with me ... and so far, you have been declining to do so.

    I'm ready whenever you are.

    that's a lie. I've asked you provide an example and you decided that I have fill out a questionaire before you'll reveal a single example of ID.

    I've repeatedly asked if you'd share an example and you've continually avoided/refused my request.

    So, again I ask if you'd like to reveal a single piece of evidence for ID?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3973
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    SW wrote: »
    that's a lie. I've asked you provide an example and you decided that I have fill out a questionaire before you'll reveal a single example of ID.

    I've repeatedly asked if you'd share an example and you've continually avoided/refused my request.

    So, again I ask if you'd like to reveal a single piece of evidence for ID?

    I'll help you out here JC, 'cause I think you are a bit stuck.
    SW have you ever seen a movie called Bruce Almighty, or an older one called 'Oh God'. You actually meet God in these films. And he talks about creating the world. There you are SW, proof on film, that God exists and from his own mouth he talks about ID.
    Of course, you can't forget that it talks about it in the Bible too and that was partly written by a man who talked to burning bushes and who was very, very clever. We know that because the Bible says it, so it must be true.
    There you are SW, Proof!! (don't worry JC, I've got your back covered)


  • #3974
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    There is no new life being Created (spontaneously or otherwise) anywhere that I am aware of.

    Then you are unaware.....that is your issue not mine, there are new stars being formed continuously .....and you a scientist , yeah right !


  • #3975
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    There is no new life being Created (spontaneously or otherwise) anywhere that I am aware of.

    So next time there is an abortion debate it can be stated that a fetus is not a "life" because (according to you) "There is no new life being Created"

    Life is created everyday, even a new virus/disease is considered to be "alive" right?


  • #3976
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So next time there is an abortion debate it can be stated that a fetus is not a "life" because (according to you) "There is no new life being Created"

    Life is created everyday, even a new virus/disease is considered to be "alive" right?
    Life is being reproduced every day ... it's not being Created de Novo.


  • #3977
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    Life is being reproduced every day ... it's not being Created de Novo.

    It's being created in the universe all the time


  • #3978
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    It's being created in the universe all the time

    While we might suppose that to be true, theirs no evidence so far and unlikely to be any anytime soon.
    Having said that, it's far more likely that the idea that God would create this universe and only fill one tiny planet in a backwater corner with life and call it a day. Even if it was the weekend.


  • #3979
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    While we might suppose that to be true, theirs no evidence so far and unlikely to be any anytime soon.
    Having said that, it's far more likely that the idea that God would create this universe and only fill one tiny planet in a backwater corner with life and call it a day. Even if it was the weekend.


    http://news.yale.edu/2010/06/17/astronomers-witness-star-being-born


    http://www.technologyreview.com/view/424442/proof-that-stars-form-when-clouds-collide/


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/07/us-meteorites-life-idUSTRE7252KQ20110307

    We cannot be so egotistical to believe that we are it......stars continue to be born, life will follow as it did here in some form or other


  • #3980
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    It's being created in the universe all the time
    Where is life being Created in the Universe?


  • #3981
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Where's your supposed evidence of ID?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #3982
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    http://news.yale.edu/2010/06/17/astronomers-witness-star-being-born


    http://www.technologyreview.com/view/424442/proof-that-stars-form-when-clouds-collide/


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/07/us-meteorites-life-idUSTRE7252KQ20110307

    We cannot be so egotistical to believe that we are it......stars continue to be born, life will follow as it did here in some form or other
    ... you are following a non sequitur with an unfounded assumption!!!

    ... apart from that it was a great post!!!:)


  • #3983
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Where's your supposed evidence of ID?
    Are you going to co-operate with me in following the logic of ID through, wherever it may lead?

    I have no interest in entering a sterile 'I say yes ... and you say no' type of 'discussion'.


  • #3984
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    J C wrote: »
    Are you going to co-operate with me in following the logic of ID through, wherever it may lead?

    I have no interest in entering a sterile 'I say yes ... and you say no' type of 'discussion'.

    Life is expected to be found on another planet, Europa being the chief candidate for it, within the next 100 years. In a universe which continues nearly infinitely with trillions of billions of planets and stars, we can't possibly be the only source of life out there.
    Once other life forms are found, and there's even evidence microbial life may have existed in Mars, what does that say about your god? I thought we were his one and only creation? Was he experimenting with others?

    If life is found in Europa, which is essentially just in our back yard, it is 100% certain it exists in quite an abundance really, given the scale of the universe. There's even theories which suggest that asteroids seed other planets, and that life jumps from one part of the universe to the other -but Europa couldn't have seeded us, or vice versa as the alignment doesn't add up, so, assuming there is life found there, it would've spawned from an independent source than us.

    All fascinating theories and possibilities and infinitely more plausible and realistic than the archaic notion of intelligent design spawned by people who believed in ghosts and magic two thousand years ago.


  • #3985
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Are you going to co-operate with me in following the logic of ID through, wherever it may lead?

    I have no interest in entering a sterile 'I say yes ... and you say no' type of 'discussion'.

    I've been asking for two days now for you to give an example. Why are you so reticent about letting people see this proof of ID?

    Anyways, still here waiting for whenever you feel like sharing the proof.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3986
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    Are you going to co-operate with me in following the logic of ID through, wherever it may lead?

    I think you are cross purposes here. You are being asked about EVIDENCE for ID and you are offering to provide the LOGIC of ID. There is a difference, it seems to me. One could argue that because there are Billions of planets in the Universe then logically there should be life found on some of them but there is no evidence for that life. Both arguments are valid but are coming from different perspectives.
    Unlike the physical reality of stars and planets, one cannot apply logic to the Metaphysical world of Heaven, where God exists. That is a matter of faith. If you have it you believe, if you don't have faith then you don't believe. That is the only logical thing about it. Neither is there any evidence for any of the faith held beliefs of ID. We all find out about it when we die, not before!


  • #3987
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Safehands;
    Neither is there any evidence for any of the faith held beliefs of ID.
    Oh it's worse than that, their is actual evidence against it. ID requires not only a faith based belief in something that lacks evidence but it also requires ignoring real evidence.
    BTW you can of course apply logic to metaphysics, you can never validate the theories with real world evidence though.


  • #3988
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Oh it's worse than that, their is actual evidence against it. ID requires not only a faith based belief in something that lacks evidence but it also requires ignoring real evidence.
    BTW you can of course apply logic to metaphysics, you can never validate the theories with real world evidence though.

    Logic to the Metaphysical world of Heaven??


  • #3989
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    J C wrote: »
    It's a hypothesis that fits what we observe

    No it doesn't fit with what we observe, what we observe is a world of c. 4.6 bn years existing in a univers of c. 13 bn years, which developed the conditions for early uni-celled prokaryotic lifeforms early (c. 100 m years after forming) in its existence, and from there we observe the evolution of these prokaryotic (some of them remaining prokaryotic, some not) lifeforms into what we have today, a diverse plethora of lifeforms adapted to environmental conditions which existed fairly recently on Earth, some of them dying out because of human interference, some dying out because of an inability to adapt, and the rest changing and evolving to better survive in the current climate. This state will continue until such time as the Earth will no longer be able to support life, and I am fairly confident that the same situation (maybe with different building blocks, definitely with different forms and paths) is happening in myriad different places around the universe, happend in many myriads of other places in the past and will continue to happen in many, many myriads of places in the future.

    Not a single thing of what we have ever observed tallies with your loopy beliefs JC.


  • #3990
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    As a scientist then you are incredibly closed minded.

    It's been well established that JC is not a scientist. He cannot even comprehend scientific principles so basic and easy to understand that we teach them to primary school kids.


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  • #3991
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    _Redzer_ wrote: »
    Life is expected to be found on another planet, Europa being the chief candidate for it, within the next 100 years. In a universe which continues nearly infinitely with trillions of billions of planets and stars, we can't possibly be the only source of life out there.
    Once other life forms are found, and there's even evidence microbial life may have existed in Mars, what does that say about your god? I thought we were his one and only creation? Was he experimenting with others?

    If life is found in Europa, which is essentially just in our back yard, it is 100% certain it exists in quite an abundance really, given the scale of the universe. There's even theories which suggest that asteroids seed other planets, and that life jumps from one part of the universe to the other -but Europa couldn't have seeded us, or vice versa as the alignment doesn't add up, so, assuming there is life found there, it would've spawned from an independent source than us.

    All fascinating theories and possibilities and infinitely more plausible and realistic than the archaic notion of intelligent design spawned by people who believed in ghosts and magic two thousand years ago.
    What ID maths is showing is that the spontaneous generation of life is a statistical impossibility. The odds against even one specific sequence of amino acids arising where and when it could be functional are so low as to be an impossibility ... even in a Universe on the scale of the Universe we observe.
    This problem is so overwhleming (from a materialistic origin of life point of view) that science is now resorting to the idea of an infinity of parallel universes. This relies on the idea that something that is statistically impossible can become possible if there are an infinity of Universes ... its effectively trying to mathematically multiply something approaching zero (the odds of life originating spontaneously) by something approaching infinity (the supposed number of parallell Universes) and thereby getting something approaching 1 or certainty that life could spontaneously emerge.
    This is mathematical conjuring based on the so-called 'Multi-verse' Hypothesis ... which is really only wishful thinking ... in order to deny God as the most plausible source of the origin of life.


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