Will you eat meat tomorrow

P_1 · 10-03-2014 12:00PM

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

This thread has been discussing influence and respect. I'm quite sure you know why Savita Halappanavar is relevant here. It is utterly inappropriate that a church has ANY influence in healthcare (and education for that matter) and the sight of the hand waving from the ever shrinking herd of apologists has been disgusting and thoroughly disrespectful.

True but you can't solely put the blame on that on the RCC. It'd be like blaming a Rottweiler who bit a child after they were let off the lead. It was the religious orders who first established the majority of schools and hospitals in Ireland because nobody else would. Successive governments have had the opportunity to take back control of them, afterall they are taxpayer funded. All it would take is a stroke of a pen.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 12:02PM

Akrasia wrote: »

I am saying that the 'badness' that existed in Ireland (which you admit to) can not be separated from the influence of the church, and as the church influence has reduced, so has this badness.

Some of the conservative catholic beliefs are outdated and I think they are shameful

Should these beliefs be 'not allowed'? Well I'm not proposing we introduce the thought police (Unlike the christian faith which considers certain thoughts to be sins just as heinous as any actions the person may do)

It's a little bit ironic that christians would criticise atheists for disallowing freedom of thought when I remember many nights as an innocent young child kneeling at my bed saying my bedtime prayers apologising to god for all the sinful thoughts I had that day and asking him to not send me to hell if I died that night in my sleep.

I find it interesting that you think that the "badness" in Ireland has decreased when in actual fact i think that it has increased tenfold. Just look at the state of us. Murders, rapes, stabbings, bullying, total corruption, a suicide epidemic, nobody gives a damn about anybody else its all me me me
Old people afraid to live on there own because marauding gangs of scumbags genuinely think their fair game.
We spent ten years or so there playing the most obscene game of keeping up with the Joneses and becoming consumed with materialism to the point where we just imploded in on ourselves.
Now the hospitals are full of sick people who can get treatment and the classrooms are bulging with kids who cant get the help they need to make alife for themselves.
Half feral kids roam housing estates cold and hungry till 11 oclock at night and nobody cares about them and when their standing in front of the judge at 16 their solicitor is saying its societys fault while their mam snivels into her hanky in the background and their dads long gone, and do you know what? it is.
Shoot me if you like but when people still had a bit of fear of both going to hell and incurring the wrath of the neighbours there was at least some chance of redemption.
Im the first to say that Irelandin the 30s to the 70s was a disgusting horrible place ruled by fear and class distinction and of course i know that the RCC was a cornerstone of that. Im not an idiot.
But i refute your allegation that the badness is gone, its not.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:04PM

P_1 wrote: »

Successive governments have had the opportunity to take back control of them, afterall they are taxpayer funded. All it would take is a stroke of a pen.

I don't think that's true. These hospitals (and schools) are private property and private property rights are protected in the constitution, as are rights of religious communities to operate.

If you start a governemnt land-grab of private property:

a) It will be laughed out of court
b) It will send shock-waves through the business and FDI community...."Hi there, we're the Irish Government, we'll take your stuff if we want it or it's politically convenient." will not go down well.

Dyr · 10-03-2014 12:10PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It will be interesting alright.

I wonder will they do as well as that leading light of reason and enlightenment Senator Ivana Bacik, who's failed numerous times to be elected to the Dail in Dublin. Her views meant that she couldn't even be elected in the last election, when all you had to be was "not fianna fail" to be elected.

she almost polls as poorly as the christian solidarity party, does Ivana :pac:

P_1 · 10-03-2014 12:11PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't think that's true. These hospitals (and schools) are private property and private property rights are protected in the constitution, as are rights of religious communities to operate.

If you start a governemnt land-grab of private property:

a) It will be laughed out of court
b) It will send shock-waves through the business and FDI community...."Hi there, we're the Irish Government, we'll take your stuff if we want it or it's politically convenient." will not go down well.

Not too sure on that to be honest. If the state pays the wages of the staff and the upkeep of the facilities then they should be entitled to control it. If the orders paid for the staff and upkeep it would be a different matter but in the vast majority of cases they don't

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:14PM

Bambi wrote: »

she almost polls as poorly as the christian solidarity party, does Ivana :pac:

I 100% agree. They repel votes, the lot of them.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:16PM

P_1 wrote: »

Not too sure on that to be honest. If the state pays the wages of the staff and the upkeep of the facilities then they should be entitled to control it. If the orders paid for the staff and upkeep it would be a different matter but in the vast majority of cases they don't

If you say so.

Won't stand up in any court though. Private property rights are private property rights. No democracy can even think about being economically sustainable without them.

efb · 10-03-2014 12:18PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It will be interesting alright.

I wonder will they do as well as that leading light of reason and enlightenment Senator Ivana Bacik, who's failed numerous times to be elected to the Dail in Dublin. Her views meant that she couldn't even be elected in the last election, when all you had to be was "not fianna fail" to be elected.

But the hannifins threw plenty of dirt her way- saw RBB get in
She continues to get elected to the Seanad

Cunny-Funt · 10-03-2014 12:18PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Shoot me if you like but when people still had a bit of fear of both going to hell and incurring the wrath of the neighbours there was at least some chance of redemption.

:eek:

So your basically making the 'religion is the adult Santa Claus' argument, which is hilarious to see being made from a religious person.

To kids: "You better be good or you'll got a sack of coal"

To adults: "You better be good or you'll burn in hell".

Wow.

Can you not see how intelligent people can take a step back and look at this kind of thinking on how society should be run... and think how backward this is?

This is not the way forward.

Also are you actually trying to say all of the bad things going on in modern society is due to people no longer having the fear of god in them? Seriously?

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 12:19PM

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

lol no just people who hold backwards opinions.

And tbh I think I'd do a lot better in the auld parties than yourself, opinions like "gays are going to burn in hell" and the likes tend not to go down well in most group gatherings.

Your ability to argue is weak and you seem to lack any clear understanding of why the catholic church, religious views in the government and so forth are detrimental to human progress.

You don't seem to be able to fathom the actual points being made here and why things that seem so trivial to you (drinking on good friday etc) are used as examples as to why there is still a problem

Any attempts to debate are pointless, just as pointless as talking to someone who believes the flying spaghetti monster is real, due to it being forced down their throats from childhood. The sheer ridiculousness of beliefs and danger of living by them without them standing up to critical thinking is lost on you because no matter how much scientific evidence, rational thinking, human logic is thrown at you, you were told from childhood that the world is flat and anyone who thinks otherwise is evil.

Here is an example of a decent debate with prominent people with your style of thinking (in case you think its one sided. )

Maybe you'll learn something from it (where the non-religious are coming from) but probably not. You might still enjoy it though either way:

Is the Catholic Chruch a force for good

Good God. What a gobsmackingly condescending obnoxious post this is.
You have no idea who I am or anything about me and still you feel free to pass such judgment on me and my powers of reasoning and you even accuse me of gaybashing when you have absolutely no evidence of this.
And you have the cheek to call the CC out for bullying?

efb · 10-03-2014 12:21PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Good God. What a gobsmackingly condescending obnoxious post this is.
You have no idea who I am or anything about me and still you feel free to pass such judgment on me and my powers of reasoning and you even accuse me of gaybashing when you have absolutely no evidence of this.
And you have the cheek to call the CC out for bullying?

You made some wild assertions on my part

Dyr · 10-03-2014 12:24PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I find it interesting that you think that the "badness" in Ireland has decreased when in actual fact i think that it has increased tenfold. Just look at the state of us. Murders, rapes, stabbings, bullying, total corruption, a suicide epidemic, nobody gives a damn about anybody else its all me me me
Old people afraid to live on there own because marauding gangs of scumbags genuinely think their fair game.
We spent ten years or so there playing the most obscene game of keeping up with the Joneses and becoming consumed with materialism to the point where we just imploded in on ourselves.
Now the hospitals are full of sick people who can get treatment and the classrooms are bulging with kids who cant get the help they need to make alife for themselves.
Half feral kids roam housing estates cold and hungry till 11 oclock at night and nobody cares about them and when their standing in front of the judge at 16 their solicitor is saying its societys fault while their mam snivels into her hanky in the background and their dads long gone, and do you know what? it is.
Shoot me if you like but when people still had a bit of fear of both going to hell and incurring the wrath of the neighbours there was at least some chance of redemption.
Im the first to say that Irelandin the 30s to the 70s was a disgusting horrible place ruled by fear and class distinction and of course i know that the RCC was a cornerstone of that. Im not an idiot.
But i refute your allegation that the badness is gone, its not.

A holy joe suddenly caring about the all the poor kids running around estates?

Didn't care so much when it turned out that they were being sent up to artane to be bummed by priests?

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:32PM

efb wrote: »

But the hannifins threw plenty of dirt her way- saw RBB get in
She continues to get elected to the Seanad

I have respect for the Seanad, but being elected to the Seanad could never really be said to be a broad-based democratic endoresment. She's been dissapointed twice in attempting to be elected to the Dail.

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 12:44PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I find it interesting that you think that the "badness" in Ireland has decreased when in actual fact i think that it has increased tenfold. Just look at the state of us. Murders, rapes, stabbings, bullying, total corruption, a suicide epidemic, nobody gives a damn about anybody else its all me me me
Old people afraid to live on there own because marauding gangs of scumbags genuinely think their fair game.
We spent ten years or so there playing the most obscene game of keeping up with the Joneses and becoming consumed with materialism to the point where we just imploded in on ourselves.
Now the hospitals are full of sick people who can get treatment and the classrooms are bulging with kids who cant get the help they need to make alife for themselves.
Half feral kids roam housing estates cold and hungry till 11 oclock at night and nobody cares about them and when their standing in front of the judge at 16 their solicitor is saying its societys fault while their mam snivels into her hanky in the background and their dads long gone, and do you know what? it is.
Shoot me if you like but when people still had a bit of fear of both going to hell and incurring the wrath of the neighbours there was at least some chance of redemption.
Im the first to say that Irelandin the 30s to the 70s was a disgusting horrible place ruled by fear and class distinction and of course i know that the RCC was a cornerstone of that. Im not an idiot.
But i refute your allegation that the badness is gone, its not.

The old irish attitudes are disappearing. There are still plenty of social problems that need to be tackled and these are mostly due to crappy government social policy creating inequality and crime.

Gambas · 10-03-2014 12:45PM

Yes, I probably will.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 12:52PM

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

:eek:

So your basically making the 'religion is the adult Santa Claus' argument, which is hilarious to see being made from a religious person.

To kids: "You better be good or you'll got a sack of coal"

To adults: "You better be good or you'll burn in hell".

Wow.

Can you not see how intelligent people can take a step back and look at this kind of thinking on how society should be run... and think how backward this is?

This is not the way forward.

Also are you actually trying to say all of the bad things going on in modern society is due to people no longer having the fear of god in them? Seriously?

I wrote a posted a considerble piece, and you picked the bit were i started the sentence with "shoot me". Throw in the "wow" (your such a monster/so stupid/so inferior to me) and your good to go cunny funt. Be carefull now not to address the rest of my post.
The bit i have emboldened. Why can't you just be honest and just say that you think im stupid?

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 12:58PM

efb wrote: »

You made some wild assertions on my part

Where? when?

papu · 10-03-2014 12:58PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I wrote a posted a considerble piece, and you picked the bit were i started the sentence with "shootme". Throw in the "Wow" (your such a monster/so stupid/so inferior to me) and your good to go cunny funt. Be carefull now not to address the rest of my post.
The bit i have emboldened. hey can t you be honest and just say that you think im stupid?

I think you are missing the point.
What I gather is that the intelligence mentioned here is the application of methods other than fear.

Many Animals in the wild use fear to control others in the herd / pack , surely as intelligent beings we can find more beneficial ways to solve our problems.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 01:04PM

Bambi wrote: »

A holy joe suddenly caring about the all the poor kids running around estates?

Didn't care so much when it turned out that they were being sent up to artane to be bummed by priests?

Why are you calling me a holy joe? Why do you say I suddenly care about them?
You dont know what i know or do about them?

You dont know anything about me?
Are you a stalker or something?

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 01:09PM

papu wrote: »

I think you are missing the point.
What I gather is that the intelligence mentioned here is the application of methods other than fear.

Many Animals in the wild use fear to control others in the herd / pack , surely as intelligent beings we can find more beneficial ways to solve our problems.

Now i'm missing the point.

Its a wonder i can turn on this computer thing at all, isnt it?

Now your saying that Irish people are/were no better than wild ainmals in packs.
But they're better than that now, arent they? Now that theyve thrown off the shackles of that ridiculous monolith that is the CC.
This country couldnt really be in any better condition now that weve eliminated all that God nonsense from the equation, could it? and its an example to every other country in the world. Riggggght. Ill leave you to it then.

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 01:42PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Now i'm missing the point.
Its a wonder i can turn on this computer thing at all, isnt it?

Now your saying that Irish people are/were no better than wild ainmals in packs.
But they're better than that now, arent they? Now that theyve thrown off the shackles of that ridiculous monolith that is the CC.
This country couldnt really be in any better condition now that weve eliminated all that God nonsense from the equation, could it? and its an example to every other country in the world. Riggggght. Ill leave you to it then.

I dont think needing the UN and EU to put pressure on us to change these laws really makes us an example.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 01:48PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I dont think needing the UN and EU to put pressure on us to change these laws really makes us an example.

As God is my witness, i was trying alittle sarcasm in that post shruikan.
Now im obviously no good at that either.
The last refuge of an internet forum scoundrel.and i fail miserably.:pac:

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 01:53PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

As God is my witness, i was trying alittle sarcasm in that post shruikan.
Now im obviously no good at that either.
The last refuge of an internet forum scoundrel.and i fail miserably.:pac:

Sorry, Ive just started assuming that everything you say is to do with how the church has got nothing to do with anything.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 02:19PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Sorry, Ive just started assuming that everything you say is to do with how the church has got nothing to do with anything.

... and ive come to the conclusion that if the slates fell of this roof tonite it would be the fault of the CC, so theres our deadlock

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 02:22PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

... and ive come to the conclusion that if the slates fell of this roof tonite it would be the fault of the CC, so theres our deadlock

If it hits any minorities you can just blame them for living in the White Semi-Catholic Republic of Ireland. They probably deserved it for not being a white Catholic.

looksee · 10-03-2014 02:24PM

P_1 wrote: »

True, to be honest I'd blame social conditioning over the years and ultimately the British and Irish states since the 19th century rather then the RCC. Essentially it was the former's inaction that led to the latter achieving such a dominant position in Irish society.

However because of that social conditioning it can be quite a daunting task to remove the last vestiges of this dominant position from Irish society. Yes a lot has improved over the years, contraception is now legal, religious/moral censorship is gone, people are no longer trapped in unhappy and sometimes violent marriages and so on. Removing the RCC from influence in education or establishing more non religious schools is IMO the final piece of the puzzle to fixing the mistakes of the 19th century.

So who was doing the social conditioning?

And while it wouldn't have been a complete thread without someone blaming the Brits, there is something a bit odd about blaming them for observance of Good Friday!

Dyr · 10-03-2014 02:24PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

... and ive come to the conclusion that if the slates fell of this roof tonite it would be the fault of the CC, so theres our deadlock

god wills it, doesn't he?

papu · 10-03-2014 02:25PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Now i'm missing the point.
Its a wonder i can turn on this computer thing at all, isnt it?

Now your saying that Irish people are/were no better than wild ainmals in packs.
But they're better than that now, arent they? Now that theyve thrown off the shackles of that ridiculous monolith that is the CC.
This country couldnt really be in any better condition now that weve eliminated all that God nonsense from the equation, could it? and its an example to every other country in the world. Riggggght. Ill leave you to it then.

No I was stating that controlling people using fear is akin to how unintelligible animals are kept in check in the wild.
Who likes living in fear , I certainly don't.

Knight who says Meh · 10-03-2014 02:34PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I find it interesting that you think that the "badness" in Ireland has decreased when in actual fact i think that it has increased tenfold. Just look at the state of us. Murders, rapes, stabbings, bullying, total corruption, a suicide epidemic, nobody gives a damn about anybody else its all me me me

It gets reported more and we have more access to news sources.

Knight who says Meh · 10-03-2014 02:37PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Good God. What a gobsmackingly condescending obnoxious post this is.
You have no idea who I am or anything about me and still you feel free to pass such judgment on me and my powers of reasoning and you even accuse me of gaybashing when you have absolutely no evidence of this.
And you have the cheek to call the CC out for bullying?

If you believe in super natural events which have NEVER been witnessed by anyone ever and only exist in a thousands year old edited and edited again document from a very very primitive time then how does that reflect on your reasoning?
The RCC bashes gays. You support The RCC. Work it out.

Will you eat meat tomorrow

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