Will you eat meat tomorrow

rainbow kirby · 10-03-2014 12:10AM

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Here in Germany where I live there is also restrictions on selling alcohol, and you're not allowed to dance in public or hold comedy shows on Good Friday either!

And in the UK, where I live and which nominally has a state religion, Good Friday is both a bank holiday and has normal pub opening hours. I'll be enjoying my usual Friday pint of delicious cask ale. :cool:

Ace2007 · 10-03-2014 12:14AM

Cydoniac wrote: »

You make it sound like the church has zero influence, but the reality and the problem is they have more of an influence than they should, even today.

But if the Church had as much influence as people on here think, Divorce in Ireland wouldn't exist, the abortion in extreme/exception circumstances wouldn't have been introduce.

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 12:18AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

I'm sure the church had their view on register office marriages, but they exist, if the government introduce same sex marriage, yes the church will have views on it just like others will have views, but if it becomes law, then it's law.

I don't see the church giving out about register office marriages, they happen, no one gives out and life moves on and everyone is happy.

Exactly, they may not agree with it but we allow it and its available to those who want it and those who are against it can take part in religious marriage ceremonies.

Currently civil partnerships dont have the same rights as those who are married so there is now a push to make them equal but there are groups that appose this such as the Iona Institute, a religious based organisation that are preaching about how it will ruin the "sanctity" of marriage. The religious are free to have their marriages, nobody else who is getting married will change that, therefore they have no reason to complain.

J_E · 10-03-2014 12:18AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

But if the Church had as much influence as people on here think, Divorce in Ireland wouldn't exist, the abortion in extreme/exception circumstances wouldn't have been introduce.

Not sure what you're even arguing here to be honest, or who for. As above poster said, you only have to look at a Catholic group like Iona and the extensive coverage they've received by State broadcaster/payout to know that there is still too much influence given to those views. Regardless of what laws have changed in the past, it doesn't really change the fact, does it?

rainbow kirby · 10-03-2014 12:18AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

But if the Church had as much influence as people on here think, Divorce in Ireland wouldn't exist, the abortion in extreme/exception circumstances wouldn't have been introduce.

Divorce is still harder to obtain in Ireland than it is in pretty much any other country in Europe. If it wasn't for the RCC then there would be no 8th amendment (a panic reaction by conservative legislators to liberalising abortion laws in the 60s, 70s and 80s across Europe), and we would have more liberal laws on it.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:27AM

Joan Burtons Sexy Knickers wrote: »

The RCC are not exactly respectful to those with differing views, are they now?

Yes they are.

Ace2007 · 10-03-2014 12:30AM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Not sure what you're even arguing here to be honest, or who for. As above poster said, you only have to look at a Catholic group like Iona and the extensive coverage they've received by State broadcaster/payout to know that there is still too much influence given to those views. Regardless of what laws have changed in the past, it doesn't really change the fact, does it?

I'm not arguing for anyone or any side, I'm just pointing out that if laws are introduce by this government then it will happen regardless of views.

The views of the COI/RCC and others can be aired in the media, but if it's a referendum or whatever then the people will decide.

Last few pages of this thread have actually been fair comments by most, but earlier on today there was bashing on the church, which I was pointing out against that there is no need to bash them to get an opinion across.

Anyway I'm off now. GL all,

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:33AM

Cydoniac wrote: »

You make it sound like the church has zero influence, but the reality and the problem is they have more of an influence than they should, even today.

In a democracy, who gets to decide who has or what is "more of an influence than they should?"

You?

Me?

The president?

No one manages/regulates influence. It is a result of civic discourse and freedom of choice - to be influenced or not.

Choochtown · 10-03-2014 12:38AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

In a democracy, who gets to decide who has or what is "more of an influence than they should?"

You?

Me?

The president?

No one manages/regulates influence. It is a result of civic discourse and freedom of choice - to be influenced or not.

Unfortunately in Ireland that is NOT the case.
The Catholic Church are given an advantage by the state when it comes to influence

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 12:38AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

In a democracy, who gets to decide who has or what is "more of an influence than they should?"

You?

Me?

The president?

No one manages/regulates influence. It is a result of civic discourse and freedom of choice - to be influenced or not.

You dont really think that everyone actually has an equal say in a democracy and nobody has any influence?

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:40AM

Choochtown wrote: »

Unfortunately in Ireland that is NOT the case.
The Catholic Church are given an advantage by the state when it comes to influence

No it's not.

P_1 · 10-03-2014 12:43AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No it's not.

Ah now that's fairly simplistic in fairness.

Think of the cultural pressure to baptise, have kids do communion and conformation and the like that you still have in Ireland today for example

Choochtown · 10-03-2014 12:44AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No it's not.

The state broadcaster gives to the Catholic Church something worth hundreds of thousands every year FOR FREE and does not do this for any other organisation (even charities).

Have you worked out what it is yet?

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:45AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

You dont really think that everyone actually has an equal say in a democracy

In theory, yes.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

and nobody has any influence?

Of course people have influence, I just explained that it can't (and shouldn't) be somehow centrally regulated - even if that was possible.

When someone says "X has too much influence" what they really mean is "X has too much influence for my liking. I'd like if that was different."

J_E · 10-03-2014 12:46AM

P_1 wrote: »

Ah now that's fairly simplistic in fairness.

Think of the cultural pressure to baptise, have kids do communion and conformation and the like that you still have in Ireland today for example

Exactly, and those who argue 'why don't parents just go to a non-denominational school' obviously have never been in the position of being torn over the distance they have to travel in some areas of the country to get to an Educate Together or equivalent.

There isn't a level playing field. It's always the people who are in the position of comfort who try to argue there is.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:48AM

P_1 wrote: »

Ah now that's fairly simplistic in fairness.

Think of the cultural pressure to baptise, have kids do communion and conformation and the like that you still have in Ireland today for example

How are these examples of the catholi church been given "advantages by the state?"

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 12:49AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

In theory, yes.

Of course people have influence, I just explained that it can't (and shouldn't) be somehow centrally regulated - even if that was possible.

When someone says "X has too much influence" what they really mean is "X has too much influence for my liking. I'd like if that was different."

Is there a difference?
There must be a point at which a group does in fact have too much influence. When the government puts off voting for something even if the majority want it or making sure a groups finances are safe at the cost of other I would consider a group to have too much influence, am I wrong thinking this or does the group actually have too much influence?

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:51AM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Exactly, and those who argue 'why don't parents just go to a non-denominational school' obviously have never been in the position of being torn over the distance they have to travel in some areas of the country to get to an Educate Together or equivalent.

There isn't a level playing field. It's always the people who are in the position of comfort who try to argue there is.

This debate is spinning wildly out of control. How is the above comment an indication of "advantages been given to the catholic church by the state?"

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 12:55AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Is there a difference?
There must be a point at which a group does in fact have too much influence. When the government puts off voting for something even if the majority want it or making sure a groups finances are safe at the cost of other I would consider a group to have too much influence, am I wrong thinking this or does the group actually have too much influence?

Just because you or I think the IFA has too much influence, doesn't make it true. Each person will experience that differently. A farmer may think they have too little influence. A meat factory worker may think the IFA has too much influence. All part of the subjective cut-and-thrust of civil society.

Choochtown · 10-03-2014 12:55AM

TV advertising for RTE costs about €20 per 1000 viewer for a 30 second advert.

The 6 o clock news pulls in about 750,000 viewers.

750 x 20 = €15,000.

€15,000 x 365= well over 5 million euro a year.

The Angelus which is exclusively Catholic is broadcast by the state broadcaster every evening at 6 o clock.

Just 1 example.

J_E · 10-03-2014 12:55AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

This debate is spinning wildly out of control. How is the above comment an indication of "advantages been given to the catholic church by the state?"

I was replying to a poster, this isn't a formal debate with an agenda, it's a general discussion. It is certainly pertaining to the church, so I am not sure what you are saying, nothing is spinning wildly out of anywhere.

If you want an example of an advantage given to the church, tune in at 6 O'Clock. Any night should do. Similarly look up 'iona payout', a very important, related and recent scandal.

Joan Burtons Sexy Knickers · 10-03-2014 12:57AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

This debate is spinning wildly out of control. How is the above comment an indication of "advantages been given to the catholic church by the state?"

The state pays the wages of the teachers in catholic schools, which are employees of the church.

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2014 12:58AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Just because you or I think the IFA has too much influence, doesn't make it true. Each person will experience that differently. A farmer may think they have too little influence. A meat factory worker may think the IFA has too much influence. All part of the subjective cut-and-thrust of civil society.

So nobody can have too much influence? If a muslim organisation came into the country and threw money at the government in return for making more muslim schools and bringing in laws based on the muslim faith then thats ok as its just our opinion that they have too much influence.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 01:00AM

Choochtown wrote: »

TV advertising for RTE costs about €20 per 1000 viewer for a 30 second advert.

The 6 o clock news pulls in about 750,000 viewers.

750 x 20 = €15,000.

€15,000 x 365= well over 5 million euro a year.

The Angelus which is exclusively Catholic is broadcast by the state broadcaster every evening at 6 o clock.

Just 1 example.

But RTE would see the Angelus as programming, not advertising. RTE pay for programming. Your analysis is entirely back to front.

If anything, RTE should be paying the church for the concept....and the boings.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 01:02AM

Joan Burtons Sexy Knickers wrote: »

The state pays the wages of the teachers in catholic schools, which are employees of the church.

The state pay the wages of every teacher in every school in the country.

J_E · 10-03-2014 01:03AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

If anything, RTE should be paying the church for the concept....and the boings.

Seriously? Do you seriously believe what you are saying here?

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 01:03AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

So nobody can have too much influence? If a muslim organisation came into the country and threw money at the government in return for making more muslim schools and bringing in laws based on the muslim faith then thats ok as its just our opinion that they have too much influence.

Of course it's just my opinion.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 01:04AM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Seriously? Do you seriously believe what you are saying here?

C'mon Cydoniac, have you no funny bone at all?????

It is programming though, not advertising.

Fred Swanson · 10-03-2014 01:05AM

This post has been deleted.

J_E · 10-03-2014 01:07AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The state pay the wages of every teacher in every school in the country.

With that in mind, if a school refuses or excludes a student on the grounds of religion/Catholic ethos, it should be on the onus of the church, not the state, to subsidise this surely?

Will you eat meat tomorrow

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