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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #3902
    sea_monkey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 755 ✭✭✭sea_monkey


    How do you bring yourself to believe that all of the ills people face today is due to something that they didn't even have a part of.

    Could you look into the eyes of a cancer patient and still feel love for your "god"?

    Being on your knees and praying for your god to help isn't going to do a thing. Understanding, learning and putting the knowledge to use is what will save people.


  • #3903
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    ... and that applies to all people ... so what is your point?


    Exactly that.....so how do you know your CD has not marred your logic and you are a million miles away from the truth?


  • #3904
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Actually yes you can just by being open to the idea there may or may not be a creator.
    ... as a scientist, I am open to this idea ...
    ... so are you also open to the idea that there may or may not be a creator?
    SW wrote: »
    You have decided on one idea being right without any evidence to support that choice.
    The evidence is pretty overwhelming for the Intelligent Design of life ... who or what the intelligence was isn't known.


  • #3905
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    As a scientist, the Creator(s) of life remain person(s) unknown ... and you cannot get any more open-minded than that.


    so if it is unknown...how does it exist...what proof do you have it exists, if it is as you say yourself....unknown




    J C wrote: »
    As a scientist, the Creator(s) of life remain person(s) unknown ... and you cannot get any more open-minded than that.

    I'm not telling you or anybody else which religion is the right religion to follow ... and I respect your right to follow any religion or none.

    ... now, please grant me the same right and respect.

    I do, I couldnt care less what type of God YOU follow...You said JChrist was God....and I want to ask you what gives you such insight to be able to say that Christ is God.....how can you dismiss the others?



    J C wrote: »
    I have found that no group has a monopoly on cognitive dissonance!!!:)

    Really?


  • #3906
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... as a scientist, I am open to this idea ...
    ... so are you also open to the idea that there may or may not be a creator?
    I'm open to any idea that can be supported by evidence.
    The evidence is pretty overwhelming for the Intelligent Design of life ... who or what the intelligence was isn't known.
    If you say so. You should have no problem providing one piece of evidence for Intellignet Design then. I eagerly await your proof.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #3907
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    sea_monkey wrote: »
    How do you bring yourself to believe that all of the ills people face today is due to something that they didn't even have a part of.

    Could you look into the eyes of a cancer patient and still feel love for your "god"?

    Being on your knees and praying for your god to help isn't going to do a thing. Understanding, learning and putting the knowledge to use is what will save people.
    ... we all ultimately die ... so there is no saving us in this life ultimately. Of course this doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and minimise the impact of the Fall on us all ... and the many Christian Medical Professionals testify to this.

    ... however, if we really want to be Saved (eternally) ... then Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.


  • #3908
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    SW wrote: »
    I'm open to any idea that can be supported by evidence.

    If you say so. You should have no problem providing one piece of evidence for Intellignet Design then. I eagerly await your proof.



    This


  • #3909
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    [QUOTE=J C;89367802... however, if we really want to be Saved (eternally) ... then Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.[/QUOTE]


    So all the other religions who do not follow christ are doomed then are they?


  • #3910
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    so if it is unknown...how does it exist...what proof do you have it exists, if it is as you say yourself....unknown
    ... the artefacts (in the form of living creatures) that it has left as proof of it's ID activities.

    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    I do, I couldnt care less what type of God YOU follow...You said JChrist was God....and I want to ask you what gives you such insight to be able to say that Christ is God.....how can you dismiss the others?
    That is my belief ... you are quite free to believe what you wish.
    wrote:
    Originally Posted by J C
    I have found that no group has a monopoly on cognitive dissonance!!!

    Mister Trebus
    Really?
    Yes ... or do you believe that some people are immune from their own biases?


  • #3911
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    So all the other religions who do not follow christ are doomed then are they?
    Many seem to be quite successful in terms of the number of believers.


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  • #3912
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    ... the artefacts (in the form of living creatures) that it has left as proof of it's ID activities.



    How can it leave anything if it is unknown.....and how can you say that these remains are not from some other unknown entity, like aliens visiting and evolving species on earth for their own purposes?


  • #3913
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    I'm open to any idea that can be supported by evidence.
    ... and so am I.:)
    SW wrote: »
    If you say so. You should have no problem providing one piece of evidence for Intellignet Design then. I eagerly await your proof.
    ... unfortunately it's not just as simple as that ... your need to deny the existence of God will deny any evidence I might present ... or at least that has been my experience to date.
    ... so I'll make a start at answering your question by asking you if you :-
    1. Accept that Human Intelligent Design exists?
    2. If you do ... is it possible to sceintifically and evidentially prove that an artefact was created by Human Intelligent Design?


  • #3914
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    J C wrote: »
    ... the artefacts (in the form of living creatures) that it has left as proof of it's ID activities.


    How can it leave anything if it is unknown.....and how can you say that these remains are not from some other unknown entity, like aliens visiting and evolving species on earth for their own purposes?
    My use of the word 'it' allows for the (scientific) possibility that 'it' could indeed be aliens or some other unknown entity ... and I have already made this clear.


  • #3915
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    Many seem to be quite successful in terms of the number of believers.


    THAT is not what I asked you.....do you believe that all those who do not follow christ are doomed?
    A simple yes or no will suffice.


  • #3916
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... and so am I.:)

    ... unfortunately it's not just as simple as that ... your need to deny the existence of God will deny any evidence I might present ... or at least that has been my experience to date.
    ... so I'll make a start at answering your question by asking you if you :-
    1. Accept that Human Intelligent Design exists?
    2. If you do ... is it possible to sceintifically and evidentially prove that an artefact was created by Human Intelligent Design?

    Actually it should be very simple if evidence of ID exists. You present it. At least that's how the beginning of the examination of the evidence would proceed.

    Would you like to present an example of ID?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3917
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    THAT is not what I asked you.....do you believe that all those who do not follow christ are doomed?
    A simple yes or no will suffice.
    No ... everybody can be Saved ... but this doesn't mean that they will, of course.


  • #3918
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Actually it should be very simple if evidence of ID exists. You present it. At least that's how the beginning of the examination of the evidence would proceed.

    Would you like to present an example of ID?
    1. Do you accept that Human Intelligent Design exists?
    2. If you do ... is it possible to scientifically and evidentially prove that an artefact was created by Human Intelligent Design?


  • #3919
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    1. Do you accept that Human Intelligent Design exists?
    2. If you do ... is it possible to sceintifically and evidentially prove that an artefact was created by Human Intelligent Design?

    Why does your proof require a questionaire? Can it not be examined on the merits of the evidence you have?

    Third time asking, would you like to give one example of the proof you have for ID?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3920
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Why does your proof require a questionaire? Can it not be examined on the merits of the evidence you have?

    Third time asking, would you like to give one example of the proof you have for ID?
    We have gone down the route you propose before and made no progress ... I'm trying a different tack to try and progress the debate on ID ... why will you not help by answering my questions?


  • #3921
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    We have gone down the route you propose before and made no progress ... I'm trying a different tack to try and progress the debate on ID ... why will you not help by answering my questions?

    because you are ignoring my request of evidence of ID. You made a claim, I asked for an evidence of the claim but you require me to fill out a questionaire before providing the evidence:confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #3922
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    No ... everybody can be Saved ... but this doesn't mean that they will, of course.



    That is not what I asked you....you can be as slippery as you wish, the question will remain:

    Are you saying that people who do not follow christ are doomed ?


    Or did you mean NO, as in NO I dont believe that people who do not follow christ are doomed?


  • #3923
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    That is not what I asked you....you can be as slippery as you wish, the question will remain:

    Are you saying that people who do not follow christ are doomed ?


    Or did you mean NO, as in NO I dont believe that people who do not follow christ are doomed?
    I'm saying that people who choose to be Saved will be Saved ... and those who don't won't.

    Nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everybody who wants to be Saved will be Saved.

    ... and you can't get anything fairer (or freer) than that.:)


  • #3924
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    I'm saying that people who choose to be Saved will be Saved ... and those who don't won't.

    Nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everyody who wants to be Saved will be Saved.

    ... and you can't get anything fairer (or freer) than that.:)


    Do you think that people who do not follow christ are doomed ?


  • #3925
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    J C wrote: »
    I'm saying that people who choose to be Saved will be Saved ... and those who don't won't.

    Nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everyody who wants to be Saved will be Saved.

    ... and you can't get anything fairer (or freer) than that.:)

    What if we're talking about indigenous people who live deep in the amazon rainforest and never got the opportunity to be informed of Christ.

    Are they automatically doomed too, just because they never even heard of your god?


  • #3926
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Do you think that people who do not follow christ are doomed ?
    'Following Christ' (or not) doesn't affect Salvation one way or the other ... believing on Jesus Christ is how people are Saved.

    Salvation is therefore ultimately a matter between each person and Jesus Christ.


  • #3927
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    'Following Christ' (or not) doesn't affect Salvation one way or the other ... believing on Jesus Christ is how people are Saved.

    Salvation is therefore ultimately a matter between each person and Jesus Christ.
    J C wrote: »
    ...
    ... however, if we really want to be Saved (eternally) ... then Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.


    *sigh*...word games...

    Do you believe that people who do not believe in christ are doomed?


  • #3928
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    'Following Christ' (or not) doesn't affect Salvation one way or the other ... believing on Jesus Christ is how people are Saved.

    Salvation is therefore ultimately a matter between each person and Jesus Christ.

    What if you have never ever ever heard the words Jesus Christ before? Is that a one way ticket to hellfire and damnation?


  • #3929
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    @JC any chance of that example of evidence of ID? Or do you still require submission questionaires to be submitted and approved before the evidence is revealed?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3930
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    God created everything perfectly ... but this perfection was marred at the Fall ... and thus death and competition (AKA Evolution) entered the Universe at the Fall.:)

    Where is your evidence for that statement JC?


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  • #3931
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    What if you have never ever ever heard the words Jesus Christ before? Is that a one way ticket to hellfire and damnation?
    There are many other people within the category you refer to, including young children and people of limited cognition.

    God is a God of justice and mercy ... and if somebody has never heard of Jesus Christ, I believe that they will, in justice, be offered the opportunity to be Saved at the point of death.
    Like I have said nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everyone who wants to, will be Saved ... and you can't get any fairer (or freer) than that.


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