Higher speed limits improve safety (sometimes)

Chris_Heilong · 25-02-2014 02:37PM

I have heard this same thing over the past year, Mostly where speed limits had been reduced but death-rates had risen as a result. Perhaps a higher speed will scare the less capable drivers off the motorways which is only a good thing.

dr.fuzzenstein · 25-02-2014 03:00PM

Sobanek wrote: »

If anyone supports this, they should be shot for supporting a fascist ideology.

It's the usual "Babies Will Die!" crap.
It is important in an urban center to make sure pedestrians are safe, 30 and 50 limits are there for that reason.
Once out on the open road, hiking the speed limit by 10 km/h isn't going to cause carnage.

dr.fuzzenstein · 25-02-2014 03:07PM

ironclaw wrote: »

Really disagree with the 'higher speed' means more concentration point. Is there any scientific evidence to back that up? Plus higher, sustained concentration levels would be more fatiguing. So while you might be concentrating more, your going to get tired far more quickly. Le Mans would be a perfect example or any endurance race. And that is with training! Just my view on it.

Well, when I was driving Ulm (coming off the A8) to Füssen on the A7 with no speedlimit, I was able to keep it at a fairly constant 220 km/h, peaking at 230.
No problems with concentration there, I can assure you.
It's the same as balancing on a ledge that's 1 foot high vs a ledge that's 10 stories high.
I don't care what evidence there is either way, you will concentrate more at 10 stories up.
But I didn't find it much more exhausting than the bit from Frankfurt to Ulm, which was riddled with speedlimits and crammed full of cars. It just takes a different kind of concentration.

Markcheese · 25-02-2014 03:17PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's the usual "Babies Will Die!" crap.
It is important in an urban center to make sure pedestrians are safe, 30 and 50 limits are there for that reason.
Once out on the open road, hiking the speed limit by 10 km/h isn't going to cause carnage.

Kind of depends on the road...
Road outside my house is an R route with a limit of 80kph(most drive at 100) ,
It's wide, straightish and good for 80kph , except when there are tractors cyclists and pedestrians using the road..
I'd be seriously worried about accidents at junctions if most trafic was doing 100/120 kph...
And that's before you get to poor roads that also have an 80kph limit .. You'd struggle to have a car and lorry pass each other on many ..

ironclaw · 25-02-2014 03:50PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, when I was driving Ulm (coming off the A8) to Füssen on the A7 with no speedlimit, I was able to keep it at a fairly constant 220 km/h, peaking at 230.
No problems with concentration there, I can assure you.
It's the same as balancing on a ledge that's 1 foot high vs a ledge that's 10 stories high.
I don't care what evidence there is either way, you will concentrate more at 10 stories up.
But I didn't find it much more exhausting than the bit from Frankfurt to Ulm, which was riddled with speedlimits and crammed full of cars. It just takes a different kind of concentration.

Good points, and I agree, but I note, in that example that Ulm to Füssen is a shade under 130km. As such it wouldn't be that difficult to maintain concentration for 40 mins or so. Its a little different when its arrow straight for an hour or two. For example, Dublin to Cork would be almost twice that distance.

I just personally believe there higher speed = more concentration claim is a little dubious.

I did Boise, ID to Klamath Falls, OR in the States in a single day (680km) And even with shared driving, and somewhat neglecting of the speed limit on the more deserted roads, the fatigue was palpable. I actually found myself far more tired from the faster sections simply as I had to maintain focus.

donvito99 · 25-02-2014 04:00PM

Is, say, the M7/M8 (or Irish motorways generally) built to a suitable (Autobahn) standard to safely accommodate delimiting? Things life gentle bends, junction layout, signage (not in my experience), policing (eh, no), rest areas, road surface, maintenance (this lets us down) or lighting?

dr.fuzzenstein · 25-02-2014 04:59PM

ironclaw wrote: »

Good points, and I agree, but I note, in that example that Ulm to Füssen is a shade under 130km. As such it wouldn't be that difficult to maintain concentration for 40 mins or so. Its a little different when its arrow straight for an hour or two. For example, Dublin to Cork would be almost twice that distance.

I just personally believe there higher speed = more concentration claim is a little dubious.

I did Boise, ID to Klamath Falls, OR in the States in a single day (680km) And even with shared driving, and somewhat neglecting of the speed limit on the more deserted roads, the fatigue was palpable. I actually found myself far more tired from the faster sections simply as I had to maintain focus.

Yes, but this was a trip from Frankfurt to Füssen, all the way to Ulm was traffic and speedlimits, as well as roadworks, so travelling at anything between 60 and 160 km/h, very varied driving, lots of traffic.
In a way it was harder than the last bit and let's just say if there was a stupid limit (like 100 km/h) I would have nodded off. Or just ignored the limit anyway.

Markcheese · 25-02-2014 08:24PM

Yeah we have 100kph motorways (rightly in SOME places) and 120kph dual carraigeways ....(saw on BBC news about the chaos a cyclist caused driving along M25, you'd see 20 or 30 of them being over taken by a tractor on the N 25 and the speed limits higher

)

I think after you've got used to 140 ish it becomes the norm , you don't concentrate any more , so when you reach for a Cd, or to get some water you don't super concentrate and are muchmore likely to crash..

Iwannahurl · 27-02-2014 12:25PM

September1 wrote: »

It seems that research in Denmark shows that on some roads you can save lives by increasing speed limits, I couldn't find English article but google translate can help.
http://www.jv.dk/artikel/1678058:Indland--Raad--Hoejere-hastighed-gavner-trafiksikkerheden

Apparently certain motorways part and straight country roads benefit from that.

The press reports are a bit previous, and the effects of higher average speed on the roads being studied will not be known until the research project is concluded in 2015. The researchers believe that more uniform speed should result in less overtaking, but it remains to be seen whether that will ultimately lead to fewer crashes.

dr.fuzzenstein · 27-02-2014 12:48PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The press reports are a bit previous, and the effects of higher average speed on the roads being studied will not be known until the research project is concluded in 2015. The researchers believe that more uniform speed should result in less overtaking, but it remains to be seen whether that will ultimately lead to fewer crashes.

As always enforcement and training is key here.
I would argue that in Ireland higher speedlimits on the motorway would be a disaster and could never work with the present situation.
There would still be the lane hoggers, dawdlers, the "let's just veer across three lanes without looking" brigade, the "let's merge at 60 km/h" brigade, the "justpulloutbegrandtofook" brigade and the people flying past everyone at 180 km/h, it's bad enough as it is.
And I find that the faster traffic flows, the slower the moron brigade drives, as some form of protest or mental illness or whatever.
As long as driver training does not include motorways I can only point and laugh at driver training in Ireland and I see it as being on par with Nairobi, India, Sierra Leone, and Cambodia.
As for enforcement, there are bits of lemon peel floating down the Liffey that do more for the enforcement of the ROTR than the traffic division of AGS.

corktina · 27-02-2014 03:41PM

yup you are only as safe as the other eejit with no training doing 160 in an uninsured car with no nct whilst on the phone and drinking a coffee, having had three pints and/or a spliff. Speed limits are there for a reason and will only ever go down

dr.fuzzenstein · 27-02-2014 04:07PM

corktina wrote: »

yup you are only as safe as the other eejit with no training doing 160 in an uninsured car with no nct whilst on the phone and drinking a coffee, having had three pints and/or a spliff. Speed limits are there for a reason and will only ever go down

But where will it end?
If you wanted to be completely logical about it and had to bow to the fact that saving lives is more important than anything else, you would have to set a limit of 60 km/h. And not just signs on the road, but physically limit the top speed of every single vehicle to that. Plus outlaw motorbikes.
That way you could theoretically achieve zero fatalities, apart from people who have a heart attack or stroke behind the wheel.
The RSA obviously have given up on training and are simply working to achieve the above.

corktina · 27-02-2014 05:07PM

as a speed freak I mourn the days before the camera vans but have to say that if we aren't going to train drivers properly and enforce the law against bad drivers (as opposed to fast ones)then speed limits are inevitable. :-(

Iwannahurl · 27-02-2014 06:01PM

corktina wrote: »

Speed limits are there for a reason and will only ever go down

Not nececelery.:) Speed, speed limits and speeding and highly politicised issues. Where there is sufficient political interest, speed limits can go up as well as down.

Lots of speed limits that are already too high or could usefully be lowered -- eg 50 km/h in residential and urban areas -- are just ignored (by motorists, engineers, local authority officials, Councillors etc etc).

CiniO · 27-02-2014 08:28PM

As an example Poland raised motorway speed limit few years ago from 130km/h to 140km/h.
Also as speeding of up to 10km/h over the limit is not enforced, it's ok to drive 150km/h.

Even though amount accidents or people killed on Polish motorways hasn't increased - but rather decreased.

dr.fuzzenstein · 28-02-2014 12:08AM

CiniO wrote: »

As an example Poland raised motorway speed limit few years ago from 130km/h to 140km/h.
Also as speeding of up to 10km/h over the limit is not enforced, it's ok to drive 150km/h.

Even though amount accidents or people killed on Polish motorways hasn't increased - but rather decreased.

I'm sure the anti-speed brigade wakes up bathed in sweat with a scream at 3am every night thinking about this.

ironclaw · 01-03-2014 07:42PM

CiniO wrote: »

As an example Poland raised motorway speed limit few years ago from 130km/h to 140km/h.
Also as speeding of up to 10km/h over the limit is not enforced, it's ok to drive 150km/h.

Even though amount accidents or people killed on Polish motorways hasn't increased - but rather decreased.

Out of curiosity, has it decreased across all roads? Or just on motorways? Because an increase in motorway accidents / deaths could be hidden if the overall reduction on other roads counter balanced it. Also you'd need to factor 'accidents' versus deaths. A higher speed will by physics mean a bigger, more forceful crash. Would someone survive at 150km/h as opposed to 130km/h? The difference in energy between the two is 21,6051 Joules because of the square involved in Kinetic Energy (Assuming a car weighing 1000kg) I'm not so sure your average motorist would be walking away from the latter. Also, thats a single car. It all starts to add when you get multiple vehicles involved.

I'm all for decent progression of the RTA and I enjoy speed (In a set, safe environment) but I feel overall driver education in this country coupled with utter stupidity is just a recipe for disaster on Irish roads. Do we really want someone who can't, for example, conduct basic reversing to park or correctly use M50 lanes, do 150km/h? Not really. I'd stop using motorways if I'm honest.

CiniO · 01-03-2014 07:50PM

ironclaw wrote: »

Out of curiosity, has it decreased across all roads? Or just on motorways? Because an increase in motorway accidents / deaths could be hidden if the overall reduction on other roads counter balanced it.

It decreased across motorways.
And to even add to it, over last few years, Polish motorway network length doubled.
I can't find exact statistics, but remember reading that accidents on motorways in Poland account for less than 1% of total amount of accidents on Polish roads.

Also you'd need to factor 'accidents' versus deaths. A higher speed will by physics mean a bigger, more forceful crash. Would someone survive at 150km/h as opposed to 130km/h? The difference in energy between the two is 21,6051 Joules because of the square involved in Kinetic Energy (Assuming a car weighing 1000kg) I'm not so sure your average motorist would be walking away from the latter.

Average motorist wouldn't walk away from either 130km/h or 150km/h accident.

dr.fuzzenstein · 01-03-2014 10:16PM

CiniO wrote: »

Average motorist would walk away from either 130km/h or 150km/h accident.

I would be sceptical of that. I don't fancy crashing into anything over 100 km/h. Of course most of the time you don't hit at the speed you where traveling at, mostly you have time to brake.
I once hit another car that had strayed into my lane head on at 80 km/h, everyone was alright, but faster than that would have been a problem

CiniO · 01-03-2014 10:22PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would be sceptical of that. I don't fancy crashing into anything over 100 km/h.

Obviously my mistake.
I meant "wouldn't walk away"... Corrected now.

Iwannahurl · 03-03-2014 10:10AM

CiniO wrote: »

As an example Poland raised motorway speed limit few years ago from 130km/h to 140km/h.

Also as speeding of up to 10km/h over the limit is not enforced, it's ok to drive 150km/h.

Even though amount accidents or people killed on Polish motorways hasn't increased - but rather decreased.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm sure the anti-speed brigade wakes up bathed in sweat with a scream at 3am every night thinking about this.

World Bank wrote:

In the European context, Poland stands out as one country which has been particularly vulnerable to road safety concerns. More than 3,500 people died in traffic-related accidents in Poland in 2012 and the country’s death rate for traffic accidents – at 93 per million – is more than 50 percent higher than the European Union (EU) average of 55, making Poland one of the worst performing road safety countries in the EU.

Source: http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2013/06/20/road-safety-in-poland

ironclaw · 03-03-2014 10:17AM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Source: http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2013/06/20/road-safety-in-poland

From speaking to a few people that worked there, the major issues (And this in antidotal not fact) are drinking driving and excessive speed on poor roads. I think CiniO was making the point that motorway deaths had reduced from a higher speed limit, but that article pretty much makes that point moot. Doesn't really matter if the deaths have reduced if the entire country as a whole has a massive issue with road deaths. 'Driver education' again ringing a bell if you ask me.

CiniO · 03-03-2014 05:42PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Source: http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2013/06/20/road-safety-in-poland

What's the relevance of that article to this thread's subject?
I see completely no connection.
Road deaths in Poland are very high, but that's definitely not because of relatively high motorway speed limit.
I can't find english-language article confirming that, but I found data that less than 1% of road fatalities in Poland occur on motorways, making motorways one of the safest places to be when traveling.

If I was to show reasons for quite bad road safety in Poland there would be few major things.

1. Vehicle fleet - it's old. Average salary is 3x to 4x lower than in Ireland, so most people drive old bangers because they can't afford anything new. No airbags, no ABS, etc... Many accident which are fatal, wouldn't be fatal if they happend in modern cars.

2. Poor road network - there is plenty of international transit traffic going through Poland, and until recently (before motorway network was extended) it was all on starndard national roads with one lane each direction, mixed with local traffic. Lots of big trucks driving through towns together with local guys driving down to shop for sputs, is very accident prone mixture.

3. Incorrect driver education - it was always focused on perfectly knowing all the rules of the road, and enforcing them, rather than driving defensively. Therefore f.e. loads of people when they have green light at the junction just drive full speed without looking sideways what's happening around them.

4. Pedestrians - very big chunk of people killed are pedestrians. Lots of drunk people walking on side of country roads. Drivers don't giving way to pedestrians in cities. etc...

5. Lack of heavy penalties for dangerous drivers - some people just drive like crazy, and all they suffer is fines and penalty points. For similar behaviour f.e. in Ireland they would suffer court charges for dangerous driving, but not in Poland.

That's just a short list of thing's I can think of, that make Polish roads quite dangerous.
Funnily I still think I'm bigger danger driving in Mayo on narrow country roads, than in my place in Poland - but that's just my own opinion.

Anyway - speed limit has very little to do with it, and motorways in Poland are really safe, even though people drive fast on them.

CiniO · 03-03-2014 05:43PM

ironclaw wrote: »

From speaking to a few people that worked there, the major issues (And this in antidotal not fact) are drinking driving

Heh, people in Poland who say drink driving is a major problem on Polish roads, must never been to Ireland.
Drink driving in a major problem on Irish roads, not Polish.

Higher speed limits improve safety (sometimes)

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