Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 Mod warning post#7005

OwaynOTT · 24-02-2014 02:40PM

whatawaster wrote: »

He had made a run and played a couple of give-and-go's IIRC.

He is not in a bad position there. He's deeper than the attack in an almost DM role. Gerrard, deeper still should be covering RB in the event of a break and we also have the two CB's back.

I might be a bit mad here but fe@k it. Does anyone think Flanaghan might be able to do a bit of a job in a defensive minded midfield berth, something like what Lahm is doing now at Bayern.
Very cool headed on the ball, has a nice eye for a pass(crossing needs a lot of work) and generally can do ok in a quick passing system.
Would fit in nicely with Rodgers predilection for playing players out of position ala Dwoning at left back and Doni in goal.

Agueroooo · 24-02-2014 02:43PM

opr wrote: »

Surely also in an ideal world our defensive unit would be closer to the rest of the team. That gap between Gerrard as the one and the other two ahead is a chasm at times which is where the space can easily be exploited by other teams. You would think in an ideal world for the system yesterday that you would have central defenders with good recovery pace and certainly a DM with recovery pace so we can play a higher line defensively which would mean the whole team is closer together with far less gaps.

Opr

^^this

at times yesterday Shelvey would pick up the ball just inside our half and at no real pace stroll up to our 18yrs box and lay it off, or shoot.

the defensive line seemed to be trained to back off (which they did) but there was no defensive midfielder coming in to stop the attack further up the pitch before it ended up in, our around our box.
It was usually then Skrtel that would come out of the back four to tackle, or block which resulted in a corner.

Swansea nearly always got something out of an attack, be it a shot on target, save out of Mignolet, or resulting corner.

every attack from them produced something and it was all our own doing.

Agueroooo · 24-02-2014 02:44PM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

I might be a bit mad here but fe@k it. Does anyone think Flanaghan might be able to do a bit of a job in a defensive minded midfield berth, something like what Lahm is doing now at Bayern.
Very cool headed on the ball, has a nice eye for a pass(crossing needs a lot of work) and generally can do ok in a quick passing system.
Would fit in nicely with Rodgers predilection for playing players out of position ala Dwoning at left back and Doni in goal.

Flanagan's first touch is so underrated.

pressure, or no pressure he is very rarely caught out with bad control.

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 02:50PM

Didn't think Flanagan played great yesterday overall, but in the last 10 minutes he was immense. The new Carragher?

Honestly thought his Liverpool career was dead a few months ago, and I was annoyed when I saw him on the team sheet at the Emirates earlier in the season, but he has been very solid in most games since then and is now offering more going forward too. Should be a valuable squad player next season with his ability to cover both full back positions.

punk_one82 · 24-02-2014 02:56PM

Flanagan has been great the games he's played this season. I'd prefer if people saw him as challenging for a starting place rather than a squad player. He's show that he's got the ability, and I think the squad player label is a bit unjust at the minute.

24-02-2014 02:56PM

opr wrote: »

He was hardly though busting a gut to get into the box as he was playing on the edge of the box. Both him and Coutinho played for most of the game like they were the second striker behind a front man.

Opr

It seemed that way at times.

The heatmap is here. He was everywhere by the looks of it!

http://thepremierleagueowl.com/jordan-hendersons-liverpool-performance-vs-swansea-city-graphics/

Sorry can't embed as on work pc and it won't let me

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 02:57PM

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

Paulegend · 24-02-2014 03:00PM

punk_one82 wrote: »

Flanagan has been great the games he's played this season. I'd prefer if people saw him as challenging for a starting place rather than a squad player. He's show that he's got the ability, and I think the squad player label is a bit unjust at the minute.

he deserves to be starting right now on merit rather than because we dont have our first choice's fully fit.

if one or both of our first choice full backs go id like to see better players come in obviously but i wouldnt dream of getting rid of flanno now. he is valuable to the team. might not be in the first xi if we bring in the type of quality we want but surely he would be part of the match day xi+7

OwaynOTT · 24-02-2014 03:00PM

whatawaster wrote: »

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

I would agree that we shouldn't have sold him but I think he should have been kept for cover and then we wouldn't have needed to sign Alberto. Funds could have went elsewhere. Or was Shelvey sold to finance Alberto?

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 03:03PM

punk_one82 wrote: »

Flanagan has been great the games he's played this season. I'd prefer if people saw him as challenging for a starting place rather than a squad player. He's show that he's got the ability, and I think the squad player label is a bit unjust at the minute.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the defense next season.

Will Wisdom stay with us next season or go back out on loan (to a PL club?)
Same with Ilori
Will Kelly be off?

And most interestingly, will any of our senior defenders get the boot? I for one wouldn't lament after Johnson, Skrtel, Agger or Toure.

brevity · 24-02-2014 03:05PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

It seemed that way at times.

The heatmap is here. He was everywhere by the looks of it!

http://thepremierleagueowl.com/jordan-hendersons-liverpool-performance-vs-swansea-city-graphics/

Sorry can't embed as on work pc and it won't let me

Here you go

Jordan Henderson: Heat-map vs Swansea.

Jordan Henderson: Interceptions vs Swansea.

Jordan Henderson: Distribution vs Swansea.

D'Agger · 24-02-2014 03:07PM

whatawaster wrote: »

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

No we haven't. At least not in by my book anyway. Shelvey is a good player, potentially brilliant on his day, but he blows hot and cold. For every brilliant pass he can lay on, or amazing strike on goal he gets off, there's a poor tackle or a lack of tracking to be found imo.

You saw the best of him yesterday due to the fact that he got time and space on the ball due to our lack of closing down around that area, but we saw him at his worst while he was at the club also - his defence needs an amount of work and one of the reasons I don't think he was going to make it was his lack of mobility. You look at Henderson or Coutihno - they're quick, they roam around and seem overall, far more mobile than Shelvey.

I was looking yesterday at Shelvey vs. Henderson and while Shelvey probably has more natural ability, you'd prefer Henderson in the side because he works his hole off from the first to final whistle, and his attitude has never been called into question. He never looks half arsed, he never shirks from work and that's what you need - you don't get the full package with Shelvey & that makes him a luxury - one we couldn't afford this season either.

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 03:08PM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

I would agree that we shouldn't have sold him but I think he should have been kept for cover and then we wouldn't have needed to sign Alberto. Funds could have went elsewhere. Or was Shelvey sold to finance Alberto?

I have no problem with the Alberto signing, or the Ilori one for that matter. It's an area we neglected for too long - and we missed out on some serious talent because we couldn't compete with United, Arsenal and even Spurs. Walcott, Ramsey and Bale spring to mind. I'm not too worried that Alberto has made zero impact this season, it takes time for players to bed in. Look at Lamela. 30 million. Less impact than Alberto. He's probably still going to be a top player for Spurs though. I'm sure Van Gaal or whoever comes in next season will relish a player of his ability.

Courtesy Flush · 24-02-2014 03:09PM

whatawaster wrote: »

And most interestingly, will any of our senior defenders get the boot? I for one wouldn't lament after Johnson, Skrtel, Agger or Toure.

We will need to upgrade the defense this summer. If we had a better defence I think we would be top of the league right now. We have the best attack

D'Agger · 24-02-2014 03:10PM

whatawaster wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what happens with the defense next season.

Will Wisdom stay with us next season or go back out on loan (to a PL club?)
Same with Ilori
Will Kelly be off?

And most interestingly, will any of our senior defenders get the boot? I for one wouldn't lament after Johnson, Skrtel, Agger or Toure.

I think Kelly will go - too injury prone to give an indication that he has what it takes to succeed. He's a good player so will be sad to see him go.

I also think one of Agger or Skrtel will go, Wisdom will stay on as cover potentially - if we're in Europe we'll have a tougher schedule and we'll need a strong squad - he's had a very good year with Derby so far so may be worth keeping as backup.

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 03:10PM

D'Agger wrote: »

No we haven't. At least not in by my book anyway. Shelvey is a good player, potentially brilliant on his day, but he blows hot and cold. For every brilliant pass he can lay on, or amazing strike on goal he gets off, there's a poor tackle or a lack of tracking to be found imo.

You saw the best of him yesterday due to the fact that he got time and space on the ball due to our lack of closing down around that area, but we saw him at his worst while he was at the club also - his defence needs an amount of work and one of the reasons I don't think he was going to make it was his lack of mobility. You look at Henderson or Coutihno - they're quick, they roam around and seem overall, far more mobile than Shelvey.

I was looking yesterday at Shelvey vs. Henderson and while Shelvey probably has more natural ability, you'd prefer Henderson in the side because he works his hole off from the first to final whistle, and his attitude has never been called into question. He never looks half arsed, he never shirks from work and that's what you need - you don't get the full package with Shelvey & that makes him a luxury - one we couldn't afford this season either.

There are very few players Shelvey's age who don't blow hot and cold. Henderson did and Coutinho does. I think a season out on loan starting for a premier league team would have been preferable.

Agueroooo · 24-02-2014 03:11PM

Ohh another thing is Suarez looks bollőxed.

really jaded performance yesterday but we cant afford to rest him.

Slattsy · 24-02-2014 03:15PM

Agueroooo wrote: »

Ohh another thing is Suarez looks bollőxed.

really jaded performance yesterday but we cant afford to rest him.

Why?

D'Agger · 24-02-2014 03:15PM

True, I'd have preferred him to go on loan, but overall I don't think Shelvey will be consistent enough at this level and has found his at Swansea where they play football that suits his skillset.

He'd be a great option off the bench, cup games etc. but I think Rodgers said that he's at a stage of his career where he needed to be playing consistently and BR couldn't give him that. He could well develop his game and be a brilliant player in the future but I don't see it.

Just on the topic - his goal was a cracker yesterday, super take.

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 03:19PM

Slattsy wrote: »

Why?

Because we are 4 points off the lead and only have 11 games left.

He is our best player.

Agueroooo · 24-02-2014 03:21PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Because we are 4 points off the lead and only have 11 games left.

He is our best player.

cheers

kingshankly · 24-02-2014 03:21PM

Agueroooo wrote: »

^^this

at times yesterday Shelvey would pick up the ball just inside our half and at no real pace stroll up to our 18yrs box and lay it off, or shoot.

the defensive line seemed to be trained to back off (which they did) but there was no defensive midfielder coming in to stop the attack further up the pitch before it ended up in, our around our box.
It was usually then Skrtel that would come out of the back four to tackle, or block which resulted in a corner.

Swansea nearly always got something out of an attack, be it a shot on target, save out of Mignolet, or resulting corner.

every attack from them produced something and it was all our own doing.

Problem is you have a keeper won't come of his line
Defenders who don't know if he is or isn't gonna come no leadership whatsoever
Seem our players are defending the 18 yard line and refuse to step out to get tight to a forward who gas dropped in deep
And you have gerrard who is overworked as Henderson and sterling are gone forward with our fullbacks, coutinho is walking round looking pretty
There has to be more discipline shown by our midfielders
Lucas is brilliant at blocking pass lines it's something you don't notice until he's not playing and he gives you better balance but zero going forward
Every game will be different with different permutations and different indivduals required, up to Rodgers to get it right
Still in with a chance of winning the league but with a lot of away games coming up by the time spurs come to anfield there could be little in

I am pie · 24-02-2014 03:22PM

We don't need Shelvey, we need a younger player to push Lucas and Gerrard. I think Gerrard is doing a good job but that the players in front of him are so attack minded that he is left exposed a lot.

Shelvey isn't better than Coutinho, Henderson or Allen in front of Gerrard.

I do think we are getting completely carried away with yesterday's goals conceded. One penalty from a nothing move, poor from Skrtel, one badly defended free kick (neither Skrtel nor Agger did much to attack it, let an average ball into the box turn into a problem without attacking the ball) and one excellent strike from Shelvey. Arguably Gerrard should have been closer but he was pulled out of position and moving towards Shelvey who in fairness hit it first time. No time to close him down.

We do need the attacking players to provide cover, thats why BR pulled Sterling yesterday. He wasn't offering s much defensive cover as usual, neither did Coutinho put in the same shift as in other big games recently in winning the ball back.

Personally I would drop Coutinho for Allen next game round, he needs a reminder that he has obligations to be defending as well as attacking in that midfield role.

whatawaster · 24-02-2014 03:26PM

I am pie wrote: »

We do need the attacking players to provide cover, thats why BR pulled Sterling yesterday. He wasn't offering s much defensive cover as usual

I think Sterling generally puts in a very good defensive shift for us

Morzadec · 24-02-2014 03:27PM

D'Agger wrote: »

True, I'd have preferred him to go on loan, but overall I don't think Shelvey will be consistent enough at this level and has found his at Swansea where they play football that suits his skillset.

He'd be a great option off the bench, cup games etc. but I think Rodgers said that he's at a stage of his career where he needed to be playing consistently and BR couldn't give him that. He could well develop his game and be a brilliant player in the future but I don't see it.

Just on the topic - his goal was a cracker yesterday, super take.

I think Shelvey is a bit similar to Adam in that he needs to be star of the show to an extent.

And I don't say that disparagingly. What I mean is that I believe he needs to be the main man of sorts in a team, getting on the ball lots, getting high up the field, having the freedom to take pops at goal from range.

I don't think he will ever reach the level to be of the quality of being that type of influential player at a top team. Unfortunately, that kind of role he plays, he probably wasn't/isn't of the quality required, but he will be an invaluable asset for Swansea, a team that should be making consistent midtable finishes, potentially breaking into the top half for the next few seasons.

I think he is a very good player, and Swansea is perfect for him right now. It was certainly the right move for him.

Could we have used him this year? Perhaps, but like I said, I don't know if he would've looked as impressive because the standards he would have been held to would have been higher, he wouldn't have got an extended run and he may not have been able to play the kind of dominant playmaking/attacking mid role in which he is playing at Swansea.

But I can certainly see the criticism in selling him and buying Alberto for the same price.

We really have seen very little of Alberto and Aspas this year. Do you think Rodgers is privately disappointed with what they have shown thus far (including what they've shown in training)?

Agueroooo · 24-02-2014 03:29PM

kingshankly wrote: »

Problem is you have a keeper won't come of his line
Defenders who don't know if he is or isn't gonna come no leadership whatsoever
Seem our players are defending the 18 yard line and refuse to step out to get tight to a forward who gas dropped in deep
And you have gerrard who is overworked as Henderson and sterling are gone forward with our fullbacks, coutinho is walking round looking pretty
There has to be more discipline shown by our midfielders
Lucas is brilliant at blocking pass lines it's something you don't notice until he's not playing and he gives you better balance but zero going forward
Every game will be different with different permutations and different indivduals required, up to Rodgers to get it right
Still in with a chance of winning the league but with a lot of away games coming up by the time spurs come to anfield there could be little in

agree with it all and again I wouldn't mind a defensive coach at the club as I don't think its Rodgers strongest point.

Mascherano type player in there and it would elevate this team into another dimension (easier said than done I know)but he does it brilliant at Barca were he sits deeper, and then has the ability to close down that space in between the lines so quick and effectively.

what we have is either Gerrard or Henderson having to come in from the side, and once passed its right down on the defenders who look terrified and simply don't know who's role is what.

the backing off and backing off without anyone coming out of the line showed it all for me.... looked straight from the training ground which is concerning.

OwaynOTT · 24-02-2014 03:31PM

whatawaster wrote: »

I have no problem with the Alberto signing, or the Ilori one for that matter. It's an area we neglected for too long - and we missed out on some serious talent because we couldn't compete with United, Arsenal and even Spurs. Walcott, Ramsey and Bale spring to mind. I'm not too worried that Alberto has made zero impact this season, it takes time for players to bed in. Look at Lamela. 30 million. Less impact than Alberto. He's probably still going to be a top player for Spurs though. I'm sure Van Gaal or whoever comes in next season will relish a player of his ability.

He has looked decent in his few bits but with Couthino, Suso and Textiera(spelling) - who seems to be getting the nod ahead of Alberto lately -was it a position we needed to take a gamble in?

djPSB · 24-02-2014 03:43PM

whatawaster wrote: »

I think we've made a significant error selling Shelvey. He should have been loaned out for the season. He is probably worth a lot more than we sold him for now (~£10m or so) and has plenty to offer in either central midfield or behind the strikers.

Could see him moving to Everton/Tottenham if not this summer then the following season.

He's a decent midfielder but don't think he'll reach the level we require.

Way too inconsistent too.

djPSB · 24-02-2014 03:45PM

whatawaster wrote: »

I have no problem with the Alberto signing, or the Ilori one for that matter. It's an area we neglected for too long - and we missed out on some serious talent because we couldn't compete with United, Arsenal and even Spurs. Walcott, Ramsey and Bale spring to mind. I'm not too worried that Alberto has made zero impact this season, it takes time for players to bed in. Look at Lamela. 30 million. Less impact than Alberto. He's probably still going to be a top player for Spurs though. I'm sure Van Gaal or whoever comes in next season will relish a player of his ability.

I reckon Lamela will be back to Italy first opportunity he gets.

Slattsy · 24-02-2014 03:45PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Because we are 4 points off the lead and only have 11 games left.

He is our best player.

Fair enough.

I'd rather give him a break myself than run him into the ground. Because he looks bolloxed. And with Sturridge scoring, the opp is there.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 Mod warning post#7005

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