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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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Comments

  • #1052
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Once again: I'm equally happy for atheism not to be taught in school as I am for Christianity not to be taught in school. Fair enough?


  • #1053
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    What sort of schools did you go to? :eek: Teachers in my schools would just have a talk with the kid to explain that sort of behaviour isn't allowed by the rules. That's how teachers should do it, rather than go Old Testament and banish them from the school.
    ... and what would happen if the 'talk' continued to be ignored by the pupil?
    ... and what would happen if their local pastor decided to call to the school?

    I think we all know that when 'push came to shove' ... that the one being 'shoved' out of the school, would be the Christian child 'hot on the heels' of their pastor ... who would effectively be an 'uninvited guest' at the irreligious school ... and thus totally subject to their rules whilst there.


  • #1054
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... and what would happen if the 'talk' continued to be ignored by the pupil?
    ... and what would happen if their local pastor decided to call to the school?

    I think we all know that when 'push came to shove' ... that the one being 'shoved' out of the school, would be the Christian child 'hot on the heels' of their pastor ... who would effectively be an 'uninvited guest' at the irreligious school ... and thus totally subject to their rules whilst there.

    Elaborate on what the student is doing. The example is too vague to able to give any meaningful answer to it.

    What is the student doing? why is the local pastor getting involved?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1055
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    No thanks. Prefer secularism to religious segregation. You can of course start a faith school with other Christian parents, but the state should be entirely secular when it comes to public schools.

    The state shouldn't involve itself in religious/irreligious matters ... and if it does, it certainly shouldn't start taking sides on the issue.
    ... this is all part and parcel of the separation of state and religion/irreligion.


  • #1056
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    The state shouldn't involve itself in religious/irreligious matters ... and if it does, it certainly shouldn't start taking sides on the issue.
    So it should neither pay for the teaching of the idea that Christian doctrine is true, nor the teaching that Christian doctrine is false?


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  • #1057
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The state shouldn't involve itself in religious/irreligious matters ... and if it does, it certainly shouldn't start taking sides on the issue.
    ... this is all part and parcel of the separation of state and religion/irreligion.

    I know. It's what I support and you oppose. You have stated that the government should fund faith schools after all.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1058
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Nope I just want to see if JC agrees that children should get educated about different religions or will he be biased and say only Christianity should be taught in RCC schools.
    I agree that children in Christian schools (indeed all schools) should be taught about different religions and irreligion. This is all part of a broad liberal education, to equip the next generation to live in respect and harmony amongst people of all religions and none within our increasingly pluralist society.
    The type of disrespectful things some of you guys say about Christians in general, and me in particular, indicates that some of you guys missed out on the respecting diversity lessons, if they were ever taught, when ye were at school.;)


  • #1059
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    I agree that children in Christian schools (indeed all schools) should be taught about different religions and irreligion. This is all part of a broad liberal education, to equip the next generation to live in respect and harmony amongst people of all religions and none within our increasingly pluralist society.
    The type of disrespectful things some of you guys say about Christians in general, and me in particular, indicates that some of you guys missed out on the respecting diversity lessons, if they were ever taught, when ye were at school.;)

    So you have no problem with an imam coming in and actively teaching christian children about Islam for exactly the same hours and in the same way they get taught about Christianity?


  • #1060
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    I know. It's what I support and you oppose. You have stated that the government should fund faith schools after all.
    The state may not take sides by funding no schools (which I think nobody wants) ... or by funding all schools (which only the illiberal 'secularists' seem to object to, whilst ironically protesting their pseudo-plurailsm).


  • #1061
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    I agree that children in Christian schools (indeed all schools) should be taught about different religions and irreligion. This is all part of a broad liberal education, to equip the next generation to live in respect and harmony amongst people of all religions and none within our increasingly pluralist society.
    I agree that all children should be taught about all religions too. What I don't believe is that they should be taught - with state funds - that all but one of them is wrong.


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  • #1062
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The state may not take sides by funding no schools (which I think nobody wants) ... or by funding all schools (which only the illiberal 'secularists' seem to object to, whilst ironically protesting their pseudo-plurailsm).

    All schools would be secular, so I clearly want the government to fund those. Not sure how you thought otherwise?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1063
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So you have no problem with an imam coming in and actively teaching christian children about Islam for exactly the same hours and in the same way they get taught about Christianity?
    The Christian ethos of a Christian school would preclude equal time to all faiths and none ... but it wouldn't preclude respect for all faiths and none and their expression within the school.

    Like I have said, everyone is free to set up schools to their particular liking ... or if they don't have the time (or can't get sufficient pupils to attend) ... they can choose the school that most meets their ethos.
    None of this implies that people of other faiths or none (or their community leaders/pastors) should be disrespected by any school.


  • #1064
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The Christian ethos of a Christian school would preclude equal time to all faiths and none ... but it wouldn't preclude respect for all faiths and none and their expression within the school.

    Like I have said, everyone is free to set up schools to their particular liking ... or if they don't have the time (or can't get sufficient pupils to attend) ... they can choose the school that most meets their ethos.
    None of this implies that people of other faiths or none (or their community leaders/pastors) should be disrespected by any school.

    You're contradicting yourself. The school is teaching more about Christianity at the expense of other groups. Many would see that as disrespectful. And it sounds very like the current Irish system rather than a secular system (which you were claiming to support.).

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1065
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    All schools would be secular, so I clearly want the government to fund those. Not sure how you thought otherwise?
    You are not in Stalinist Russia ... you are in a liberal secular pluralist democracy that is respectful of religious/irreligious diversity ... and that respect logically translates itself into respect for religious and irreligious schools, as parental demand decides.
    ... and I'm sorry, but if parental demand decides to have only one (or no) irreligious school it is none of the business of the state to co-erce parents who don't want an irreligious school into accepting one.

    You guys need to start marketing your irreligious philosphy to your potential parental market ... and insulting over 90% of your potential audience isn't a very sensible route to take IMO ... but that is just my opinion - and I could be wrong.;)


  • #1066
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    The Christian ethos of a Christian school would preclude equal time to all faiths and none ...
    This is directly at odds with your earlier bleating about equality.


  • #1067
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    You're contradicting yourself. The school is teaching more about Christianity at the expense of other groups. Many would see that as disrespectful. And it sounds very like the current Irish system rather than a secular system (which you were claiming to support.).
    A Christian (or indeed an irreligious) school has every right to favour it's own ethos. That's what parents sending chidren there expect.
    This doesn't mean that they should disrespect people of other faiths or none who don't share their ethos (but may be attending their school) ... and again this applies equally to all types of school.


  • #1068
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    You are not in Stalinist Russia ... you are in a liberal secular pluralist democracy that is respectful of religious/irreligious diversity ... and that respect logically translates itself into respect for religious and irreligious schools, as parental demand decides.
    Nope. A secular state should have a secular public school system. I would rather the government not build a school for every religious grouping in every town and village. It's an impossible, and financially wasteful, task.
    ... and I'm sorry, but if parental demand decides to have only one (or no) irreligious school it is none of the business of the state to co-erce parents who don't want an irreligious school into accepting one.
    Then those groups that want faith schools can form their own private schools. Nothing to stop them.
    You guys need to start marketing your irreligious philosphy to your potential parental market ... and insulting over 90% of your potential audience isn't a very sensible route to take IMO ... but that is just my opinion - and I could be wrong.;)
    Yes, you are. For a start, I'm not insulting anyone. How is secularism insulting to Christians? And only Christians it seems btw??

    I'm not marketing any philosophy as I don't want the school system pandering to my personal beliefs, unlike you who wants faiths schools paid out of the public purse.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1069
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    A Christian (or indeed an irreligious) school has every right to favour it's own ethos. That's what parents sending chidren there expect.
    Never said otherwise. I have said that the state should have its own secular public schools.
    This doesn't mean that they should disrespect people of other faiths or none who don't share their ethos (and may attend their school) ... and again this applies equally to all types of school.

    And yet you have only just said that priority should be given to Christianity in Christian schools. So you're disrespecting non-Christians by reducing time dedicated to their religion, and possibly worse again if faith formation occurs in the school.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1070
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    A Christian (or indeed an irreligious) school has every right to favour it's own ethos. That's what parents sending chidren there expect.
    This doesn't mean that they should disrespect people of other faiths or none who don't share their ethos (but may attend their school) ... and again this applies equally to all types of school.

    Hmmmmm what's that you said about sectarianism earlier? :rolleyes:


  • #1071
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    A Christian (or indeed an irreligious) school has every right to favour it's own ethos. That's what parents sending chidren there expect.
    Yes. And those parents should pay for that school. If they want taxpayer funds to pay for it, they need to accept that it's not OK for a taxpayer-funded school to teach myths as fact.
    This doesn't mean that they should disrespect people of other faiths or none who don't share their ethos...
    Except by claiming that their faiths are untrue.


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  • #1072
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by J C View Post
    The Christian ethos of a Christian school would preclude equal time to all faiths and none ...oscar

    Bravo
    This is directly at odds with your earlier bleating about equality.
    Equality means treating people with equality and respect.
    It doesn't mean surrendering your beliefs in favour of somebody else's or some kind of 'lowest common denominator'.
    You are quite entitled to respect for your beliefs ... and so am I.

    When it comes to establishing or choosing schools you are quite entitled to set up or choose a school whose ethos is closest to your beliefs ... and so am I.


  • #1073
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Hmmmmm what's that you said about sectarianism earlier? :rolleyes:
    There is nothing sectarian about respecting people of faith and none with whom you disagree.

    There is nothing sectarian about having your children taught in an environment that closest matches your beliefs.


  • #1074
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    so now secularism is 'surrendering your beliefs'??

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1075
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    There is nothing sectarian about respecting people of faith and none with whom you disagree.

    There is nothing sectarian about having your children taught in an environment that closest matches your beliefs.

    pretty sure that's almost a perfect dictionary definition of sectarian.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1076
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes. And those parents should pay for that school. If they want taxpayer funds to pay for it, they need to accept that it's not OK for a taxpayer-funded school to teach myths as fact.

    Except by claiming that their faiths are untrue.
    There have been many myths taught as fact down the years ... and they weren't all taught in religous schools.

    ... and just because I don't share all of your beliefs (or you mine) doesn't mean that we can't agree to differ ... and respect each other for our sincerely held beliefs.


  • #1077
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    Equality means treating people with equality and respect.
    "Class, this is Jamal. He's a Hindu. Let's all respect his religious beliefs, even though he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and is therefore doomed to eternal damnation."
    It doesn't mean surrendering your beliefs in favour of somebody else's or some kind of 'lowest common denominator'.
    When it comes to things the government pays for, beliefs shouldn't come into it. The government shouldn't be funding a school that teaches Christianity, Judaism, Paganism, Satanism... it's not a question of "lowest common denominator", it's a question of distinguishing between education and indoctrination. Teaching religious beliefs isn't education, and shouldn't be paid for by a liberal secular state.
    When it comes to establishing or choosing schools you are quite entitled to set up or choose a school whose ethos is closest to your beliefs ... and so am I.
    Sure. What I'm arguing with is the idea that you have the right to set up a school to indoctrinate your children at my expense.


  • #1078
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    SW wrote: »
    pretty sure that's almost a perfect dictionary definition of sectarian.

    He really is clueless! :eek:


  • #1079
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    There have been many myths taught as fact down the years ... and they weren't all taught in religous schools.
    True. Would you agree that that's a bad thing, and that it's a practice that should be eliminated completely?
    ... and just because I don't share all of your beliefs (or you mine) doesn't mean that we can't agree to differ ... and respect each other for our sincerely held beliefs.
    I respect your right to believe whatever nonsense you choose. I won't agree to your insistence that my taxes should fund the teaching of that nonsense to children.


  • #1080
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    pretty sure that's almost a perfect dictionary definition of sectarian.
    Sectarianism is religious/irreligious hatred ... and that certainly doesn't apply to a Christian School teaching the love of Jesus Christ to Christian children attending the school and respecting the faith or none of all other chidren attending the school.


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  • #1081
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Sectarianism is religious/irreligious hatred ... and that certainly doesn't apply to a Christian School teaching the love of Jesus Christ to Christian children attending the school and respecting the faith or none of all other chidren attending the school.

    that's extreme sectarianism.

    Sectarianism is beliefs pertaining to a sect, e.g. Christianity. So you are a supporter of sectarian schools.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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