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Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

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Comments

  • #92
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I am not worried about that. The journalist who broke this story has said there are more revelations to come.
    The journalist hasn't even given an indication of what kind of source it is or if he has corroborated the evidence in any way.
    The 'more revelations to come' drip feeding designed to sell newspapers approach doesn't exactly give me confidence either.

    It may be all completely accurate, but there's just not enough for me to take it fully at face value yet.


  • #93
    zagmund
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    This is just a mess.

    "government level" - this went out with the cold war. If you approach someone in the surveillance business with €50k in your pocket, they're not going to tell you they only ship to "Government Buildings, Capital City". They will take your €50k (or €5k, or €500), issue an invoice for "machinery spare parts" and ship it wherever you want. They may even skip the invoice bit.

    The Ombudsman says that Garda involvement has been ruled out (or words to that effect) and the Gardai get upset. They would be a lot more upset if the Ombudsman said that Garda involvement couldn't be ruled out.

    The world and his brother gets wound up trying to analyse what is meant by an "anomaly". It's exactly what it says. Check out the dictionary. In my work over the years I've investigated things where there was a clear cause, things where there was no clear cause and things where there was something that didn't make sense and couldn't be explained. That's an anomaly. In the context of current events it could be anything - it could be a different config on some device in the environment when compared to thousands of otherwise similar device. Nobody can explain why the config was changed, nobody knows when it was changed, nobody knows why it was changed, it might or might not be possible to determine the likely reason behind the change, etc . . .

    There are two likely scenarios in my books -
    1) someone suspected they were being bugged, they called in external people to check (which is entirely logical), the external people found some strange things in the environment but couldn't say definitively whether bugging had taken place but on the balance of evidence to hand they felt that it was unlikely. In this case, there is nothing to report to the Minister - there was no bugging.
    2) the external people found some strange things in the environment and reckoned there was a good chance that bugging was taking place. In this case the Ombudsman could well have adopted tactics to defeat the surveillance without giving away the fact that they were now wise to it . . . holding meetings in the bugged rooms, etc . . . Whether or not they informed the Minister in this case could well be spin anyway.

    My view is that scenario 1 is most likely - strange things were found, but not enough to say for sure that bugging took place.

    z

    [edit] I said "most likely" above - both scenarios are perfectly plausible


  • #94
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I am not worried about that. The journalist who broke this story has said there are more revelations to come.

    A journalist says there are more revelations to come??

    Must be true then.


  • #95
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    raymon wrote: »
    Where were the bugs , what was the nature of them ?

    Government level surveillance - these are journalistic words , not a technical specification.

    Do you know that there were bugs ? How do you know ?



    Reasonable questions.

    The Irish Independent seems terribly sure:

    NWS_2014-02-10_NEW_002_30609700_I1.JPG

    It's also reasonable to question the origins of the story. All newspapers are in the business of selling copy, so if John Mooney has more to reveal you can be sure we'll get only it in installments.


  • #96
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Do you think that Verrimus (the consultancy firm) would come out in such a way and confirm their involvement, if the original article was filled with inaccuracies?

    Yes I do.


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  • #97
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,821 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Phoebas wrote: »
    The journalist hasn't even given an indication of what kind of source it is or if he has corroborated the evidence in any way.
    The 'more revelations to come' drip feeding designed to sell newspapers approach doesn't exactly give me confidence either.

    It may be all completely accurate, but there's just not enough for me to take it fully at face value yet.

    Did you watch Prime Time last night? It was specifically stated that there was definite electronic surveillance.

    Read between the lines, you should know that the journalist cannot reveal his source - especially if the source is someone in GSOC. With good reason too judging by the way the government have reacted so far.

    Have a read over some of the tweets from Conor Brady, former senior member of GSOC, to fill in the blanks if you need to - especially regarding the source of this story.

    http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10251592/


  • #98
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    The Irish Independent seems terribly sure:
    That's a reg flag up straight away.


  • #99
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Did you watch Prime Time last night? It was specifically stated that there was definite electronic surveillance.

    Read between the lines, you should know that the journalist cannot reveal his source - especially if the source is someone in GSOC. With good reason too judging by the way the government have reacted so far.

    I did watch it. The statement was from the journalist who didn't explain how he came to the conclusion.
    You can't just be taking the word of somebody as gospel without some kind of reasonable explanation from them about why they are saying it (and that doesn't mean that they have to reveal their source - just reveal what the extent of the evidence is, and if and how he corroborated it).


  • #100
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Reasonable questions.

    The Irish Independent seem terribly sure:

    NWS_2014-02-10_NEW_002_30609700_I1.JPG

    It's also reasonable to question the origins of the story. All newspapers are in the business of selling copy, so if John Mooney has more to reveal you can be sure we'll get only it in installments.


    Come on - this is the Irish Independent - I only believe the weather section.
    This graphic above is probably without any foundation .

    Nearly every business , organization and private computer and IP phone is under attack every day. And sometimes they get through.


  • #101
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Did you watch Prime Time last night? It was specifically stated that there was definite electronic surveillance.

    There is electronic surveillance of millions of computers worldwide - hackers hack. That's what hackers do . Doesn't matter if it is an office ,a hospital or a farm , or an Ombudsman.
    .

    I don't credit a domestic government agency or the Gardaí with the know how to do this type of stuff.


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  • #102
    golfball37
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭golfball37


    raymon wrote: »
    There is electronic surveillance of millions of computers worldwide - hackers hack. That's what hackers do . Doesn't matter if it is an office ,a hospital or a farm , or an Ombudsman.
    .

    I don't credit a domestic government agency or the Gardaí with the know how to do this type of stuff.

    I agree with your last line 100% but they are more than capable of outsourcing.


  • #103
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,821 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    raymon wrote: »
    There is electronic surveillance of millions of computers worldwide - hackers hack. That's what hackers do . Doesn't matter if it is an office ,a hospital or a farm , or an Ombudsman.

    Bedroom hackers cannot setup a fake GSM cell to monitor telephone calls, leaving the aside the fact that the equipment required to do so costs hundreds of thousands of euro. You also cannot directly breach the telephony infrastructure from your bedroom in order to intercept data.

    This is not related to computer hacking as you seem to think it is. Totally different matter entirely.

    raymon wrote: »
    I don't credit a domestic government agency or the Gardaí with the know how to do this type of stuff.

    You have little or no understanding of how our intelligence is gathered in this state then. It is far more sophisticated than you might think. The Directorate of Intelligence in the Defence Forces is top notch, as is the capabilities of the Gardaí. For good reason too considering we had armed paramilitaries engaged in warfare against the state up until recent years.


  • #104
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    zagmund wrote: »

    The Ombudsman says that Garda involvement has been ruled out (or words to that effect) and the Gardai get upset.

    No, what was said was that there was no evidence that ASG were involved, something like there is no evidence Gerry Adams was ever in the IRA.


  • #105
    zagmund
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Not quite. The statement said "There was no evidence of Garda misconduct. The commission decided to discontinue the investigation on the basis that no further action was necessary or reasonably practicable."

    OK, so it doesn't say that Garda involvement has been ruled out, but it does say there "was no evidence of Garda misconduct." I think that the Garda commissioner getting upset about this and demanding clarification is strange given the circumstances. In another situation you might expect the Gardai to say something like "We are glad to see that no evidence of Garda misconduct was found and that this was clarified at an early stage"

    z


  • #106
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Bedroom hackers cannot setup a fake GSM cell to monitor telephone calls,.

    Was there a fake GSM device found , or are you just guessing that there was?


  • #107
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,821 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Garda body urges GSOC chairman to consider position
    The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors has called on Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission chairman Simon O’Brien to consider his position.

    WOW is all I will say! Real danger of a 'war' emerging between the Gardaí and GSOC. The Minister needs to ensure that a constructive working relationship exists between the two organizations.


  • #108
    Call me Al
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Garda body urges GSOC chairman to consider position



    WOW is all I will say! Real danger of a 'war' emerging between the Gardaí and GSOC. The Minister needs to ensure that a constructive working relationship exists between the two organizations.


    Shocking!
    Simon O'Brien is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
    Shatter needs to sort calm the waters before this escalates any further.


  • #109
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Garda body urges GSOC chairman to consider position



    WOW is all I will say! Real danger of a 'war' emerging between the Gardaí and GSOC. The Minister needs to ensure that a constructive working relationship exists between the two organizations.

    That's the real story there . The Gardaí and the Ombudsman don't get along.

    As I said this fake story has become a place where Politicians ( or those closely associated like yourself ) , Journalists , Reporters and other vested interests like the Gardaí are making hay !

    It is a good opportunity for you Sierra and your Fianna Fail party to get a good dig at the government .


  • #110
    zagmund
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    I echo your "wow".

    The Gardai are doing themselves no favours in this.

    Quotes from the RTE coverage, not from the AGSI directly - "It said it was not acceptable that the Ombudsman suspected that a crime may have taken place and did not report it to gardaí." & "He said he believes the Ombudsman has no regard for the laws of this country and there is a huge question mark over the ability of Mr O'Brien to carry on in his position."

    There's so much wrong with this that it's scary. The Minister for "everything" needs to step in and tell everyone to cop themselves on. Joe Public is not interested in hearing internal squabbles like this. Joe is very interested in having faith in the institutions of the state.

    To say that the Ombudsman has no regard for the laws of the country is approaching thundering disgrace territory.

    z


  • #111
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    zagmund wrote: »
    To say that the Ombudsman has no regard for the laws of the country is approaching thundering disgrace territory.


    It also invites pot-kettle-black accusations.


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  • #112
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    So here is what we know

    1) There probably was no bug.
    2) Simon O Brien ( The Ombudsman in question) is a former London MET Police officer.
    3) The Gardaí don't like him poking around.
    4) The Gardai will beat the hell out of him with this story until he resigns.
    5) Journalists will print papers with made up headlines
    6) Politicians will exploit the situation to make gains


  • #113
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    raymon wrote: »
    So here is what we know

    1) There probably was no bug.
    2) Simon O Brien ( The Ombudsman in question) is a former London MET Police officer.
    3) The Gardaí don't like him poking around.
    4) The Gardai will beat the hell out of him with this story until he resigns.



    Know and probably don't really go together.

    Simon O'Brien looks like a man with a great weight on his shoulders. Not good for the GSOC's standing if he has to resign.


  • #114
    edanto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,802 ✭✭✭edanto


    Possibilities:

    (1) There was no bugging at all taking place

    (2) There was bugging and it was carried out by Gardai fearful of GSOC investigations

    (3) There was bugging and it was carried out by criminals hungry for information they could use to blackmail Gardai

    (4) There was bugging and it was carried out by another group with less obvious motives (e.g. British/Russian/US spy agencies, the NUJ, Prime Time, boards.ie Politics forum).

    Let's compare 1, 2 & 3 and discount 4 for now (although post-Snowden, very little would surprise me about the black box).

    All we know for sure is that some event took place which lead GSOC to suspect bugging and that event must have been a leak of information.

    (1) is unlikely - since we know (or at least "sources say") there was an event which prompted a security review, then there must have been either a leak from a mole or bugging. Both are serious enough, and in either case begs the question, who arranged it? So, whether there was technical bugging or not, who sought to get inside info from GSOC?

    Leading us to (2) or (3)

    Gardaí or criminals?

    If the Gardai were guilty, we'd expect their response to the news to be mud-slinging, defensive posturing, denials.

    If the Gardaí knew nothing about it at all, we'd expect their response to be outrage that information about Gardaí might have been compromised and sincere offers of help to their colleagues. Such offers would have to be sensitive to the unusual position GSOC is in - to whom can they safely report such crimes?

    Just on the responses so far, I'd be suspicious of the Gardaí. Very sad to say that, personally I've always had great trust in the Gardaí and it's been tough to accept revelations such as Morris, Smithwick & Boylan. The Boylan affair in particular seems relevant here.

    The post linked earlier is very interesting, the transcript of the RTE debate.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84548001&postcount=1

    A choice extract:

    Mooney: “This, this all goes down to, there is a convicted drug trafficker caught with €1.7 million worth of heroin and cocaine which was being sold. He admitted responsibility for that, yet he never stood trial. What does he know that unfortunately has this State in a situation where they can’t put him in jail?”


  • #115
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,821 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    raymon wrote: »
    So here is what we know

    1) There probably was no bug.

    Why do you say that? I could just as easily say that there probably was a bug. We don't know yet, there should be some sort of independent inquiry.


  • #116
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Why do you say that? I could just as easily say that there probably was a bug. We don't know yet, there should be some sort of independent inquiry.

    You just said there was a " fake gsm device".

    Did you make that up?


  • #117
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,178 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    edanto wrote: »
    Gardaí or criminals?

    If the Gardai were guilty, we'd expect their response to the news to be mud-slinging, defensive posturing, denials.

    If the Gardaí knew nothing about it at all, we'd expect their response to be outrage that information about Gardaí might have been compromised and sincere offers of help to their colleagues. Such offers would have to be sensitive to the unusual position GSOC is in - to whom can they safely report such crimes?

    Perhaps the pertinent question to ask is "who stood to gain the most from eavesdropping on GSOC discussions"?

    Also given the reaction of the Gardai to date, it's really not looking good for them.


  • #118
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Lemming wrote: »
    Perhaps the pertinent question to ask is "who stood to gain the most from eavesdropping on GSOC discussions"?

    Also given the reaction of the Gardai to date, it's really not looking good for them.

    But it is unlikely that eavesdropping even occurred

    here is an extract from the GSOC statement :
    "It confirmed the existence of three technical and electronic anomalies. These could not be conclusively explained and raised concerns among the investigation team in terms of the integrity of GSOC's communications security.
    However, GSOC is satisfied that its databases were not compromised.
    Since the investigation concluded, we have been working to review and enhance our security systems in the light of what the investigation revealed.
    "


  • #119
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    raymon wrote: »
    But it is unlikely that eavesdropping even occurred
    Perhaps our friends in the boards Security Forums could advise us better, but my understanding is that should this have been up to the standards of what are known as Advanced Persistent Threat groups (as per 'Cybersecurity' by Singer), then depending on the nature of these anomalies that is all the evidence they would have left behind.


  • #120
    edanto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,802 ✭✭✭edanto


    raymon wrote: »
    But it is unlikely that eavesdropping even occurred

    I've suggested some reasons to believe that there was a leak/bugging at GSOC. What do you make of them?


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  • #121
    okioffice84
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭okioffice84


    AGSI is asking GSOC chairman to 'consider his position'. Give me a break- there is only one organisation in the state with the motive and capability to bug GSOC and that's AGS


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