Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

Carawaystick · 05-02-2014 11:43PM

The nta have a document showing 36 minute times for the Swords-Dublin qbc
in 2009
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/quality_bus_corridor_2009.pdf

Obviously it's from Airside to Dorset st, but
fixing the cat and cage bottleneck,
reducing dwell times will get you a lot for a little.

I would't have southbound busses serving the airport, build a heated sheltered waiting area and use the car park shuttle busses

Carawaystick · 05-02-2014 11:50PM

monument wrote: »

Images of the Emerging Preferred Routes attached... these differ to the original maps...

The lack of any interchange stop at the estuary roundabout shows an awful lack of concern for integrating the 33a/b route

xper · 06-02-2014 12:29AM

Carawaystick wrote: »

The lack of any interchange stop at the estuary roundabout shows an awful lack of concern for integrating the 33a/b route

The map posted by monument above shows an Estuary stop.

If your concern is that it's not marked as an "interchange stop", that's just semantics. A stop is a stop. Clearly on the route maps interchanges are regarded as stops in close proximity to stops on other high quality transport routes, primarily rail based. I'd wager that the majority of proposed BRT stops are in close proximity to a Dublin Bus route stop.

xper · 06-02-2014 12:46AM

VWD8 wrote: »

The NTA confirmed to Dublin City Council today that Dublin Bus will be operating it.

This seems weird. I doubt that it is the relevant minister's idea!

On RTE News. http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0205/502460-bus-rapid-transit-dublin/

There are some more re-assuring statements in that report regarding lay-bys for ordinary bus stops, full bus lanes, junction priority, etc than the alarming blanket statement about not being able to provide separate lanes in city centre sections that was in the initial Irish Times article.

The devil will be in the detail, of course.

monument · 06-02-2014 01:39AM

NTA presentation to Dublin City Council transport and traffic SPC: http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Intro-to-BRT-for-Dublin.pdf

Webcast (from Wed, 05th Feb 2014 - 3:00 pm) includes some extra detail is "Archiving - Available soon" at http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/

Aard · 06-02-2014 02:15AM

monument wrote: »

Images of the Emerging Preferred Routes attached... these differ to the original maps...

A few notes...

The stop beside Drumcondra Station should be named "Drumcondra". The other stop could be named "Homefarm Road" or similar.

It couldn't hurt if the Pink line was extended to Clongriffin Station.

It is interesting that the Blanch-UCD route is coloured blue. Like the privately-proposed "Blue Line". That just so happened to extend southbound towards Sandyford. I wonder if the proposed route is curtailed at UCD so as to allow "Blue Line"-ification at a later date? A mega Blanch-Sandyford route in the future maybe?

Amirani · 06-02-2014 02:22AM

Aard wrote: »

A few notes...

The stop beside Drumcondra Station should be named "Drumcondra". The other stop could be named "Homefarm Road" or similar.

It couldn't hurt if the Pink line was extended to Clongriffin Station.

Both seem like no-brainers to me.

spuddy · 06-02-2014 08:15AM

Has anyone used a BRT? I lived in Nantes for a while which has, what they term, a busway.

Here's my take. From an infrastructure perspective, it looks just like a tram, stations, dedicated lanes, priority over traffic etc. the only thing missing are the tracks in the ground and the overhead powerlines.

Few differences once you step on board though:
1) They're much much less spacious than trams, both in length & breath. They really feel much smaller inside
2) Because they're a maximum of two 'carriages' long, even with greater frequency, you were much more likely to be squeezed in
3) They're much noisier. Despite the look and feel, as soon as it moved off, there was no doubting you were on a bus, with a diesel engine.

Don't get me wrong, they're not bad, better than a regular bus, but if anyone thinks they're getting a tram line on the cheap, think twice about that

Banjoxed · 06-02-2014 09:21AM

spuddy wrote: »

Has anyone used a BRT? I lived in Nantes for a while which has, what they term, a busway.

Here's my take. From an infrastructure perspective, it looks just like a tram, stations, dedicated lanes, priority over traffic etc. the only thing missing are the tracks in the ground and the overhead powerlines.

Few differences once you step on board though:
1) They're much much less spacious than trams, both in length & breath. They really feel much smaller inside
2) Because they're a maximum of two 'carriages' long, even with greater frequency, you were much more likely to be squeezed in
3) They're much noisier. Despite the look and feel, as soon as it moved off, there was no doubting you were on a bus, with a diesel engine.

Don't get me wrong, they're not bad, better than a regular bus, but if anyone thinks they're getting a tram line on the cheap, think twice about that

I don't think anyone who actually knows anything about transport would really believe that, unless they wanted to hoodwink the wider public to believe that. The folly of real BRT is that there would have to be an endless procession of these vehicles to have anything like the same capacity of Luas, let alone a metro.

For that reason I believe is what we will get are some BRT vehicles, that look a bit like a tram but without the road capacity.

cgcsb · 06-02-2014 09:28AM

alot of the routes are parallel to, and not that far from existing rail lines, essentially an admission that the rail service is not satisfying commuter demand

bk · 06-02-2014 11:01AM

Hugh Cregan of the National Transport Authority told a meeting of Dublin City Council's Transport Committee that it was planned to contract out the service to Dublin Bus as it involved a "complete reconfiguration" of bus services.

Interesting, I wonder if these means routes like the 16 and 41 will be removed and instead their buses used as local feeders to the BRT with true integrated ticketing.

In other words finally having what we should have always had!

As DB will be operating these routes, I hope they learn lessons from their operation and apply them to their own bus services at a lesser level.

Also another thought, this should lead to a large number of new Luas style ticket machines throughout the city center and some suburbs. That should help a little with Leaps problems on DB, now being able to top-up, buy and add tickets at more locations. Though I still think DB needs to get new ticket machines to truly make leap viable on Dublin Bus.

Godge · 06-02-2014 11:59AM

monument wrote: »

Images of the Emerging Preferred Routes attached... these differ to the original maps...

Between Cabra Road, Stoneybatter, Liberties Quarter, Aungier Street and Donnybrook, the Blanchardstown route is not going to work.

For example, how are the bendy buses going to manage turning from/to Aungier Street and the Green?

For example, how are they going to manage Donnybrook?

At the moment the 39A takes about an hour to get from Blanchardstown to UCD in the mornings unless it gets snagged in the usual places which will still be there. How is all the money spent on this route going to change that?

Wouldn't it be much better value to upgrade the Maynooth line to DART status and provide proper feeder bus service to/from the Blanchardstown Centre and a new station at Porterstown as well as a proper feeder service to UCD from Sydney Parade?

bk · 06-02-2014 12:32PM

Godge wrote: »

At the moment the 39A takes about an hour to get from Blanchardstown to UCD in the mornings unless it gets snagged in the usual places which will still be there. How is all the money spent on this route going to change that?

Perhaps some (a lot) of the money will be going towards road widening projects, like is currently being done at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra.

Godge · 06-02-2014 12:42PM

bk wrote: »

Perhaps some (a lot) of the money will be going towards road widening projects, like is currently being done at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra.

You might like to explain to me how a road-widening project will be able to facilitate buses turning from/to Stoneybatter into North King Street or will be able to remove the bottlenecks at Prussia Street and Donnybrook?

bk · 06-02-2014 12:55PM

Godge wrote: »

You might like to explain to me how a road-widening project will be able to facilitate buses turning from/to Stoneybatter into North King Street or will be able to remove the bottlenecks at Prussia Street and Donnybrook?

I meant it in a general sense, though I also meant that they can and probably will CPO and demolish some buildings to widen roads.

I also guess that in this particular circumstance, they plan on changing some streets to one way, etc. too. Perhaps they might even become bus only streets. For instance, looking at the maps, it is clear to Parnell Square East will become a two way street for the BRT, a very sensible move. I'm sure there will be many such reconfigurations.

cgcsb · 06-02-2014 01:34PM

bk wrote: »

Perhaps some (a lot) of the money will be going towards road widening projects, like is currently being done at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra.

road widening projects are only viable when there is land available at one side of the road. That is not the case in Stoneybatter, Cabra Road, Prussia Street or Donneybrook.

We could probably make Cabra Road + Prussia street one way with a contra flow bus lane, and chenge the flow direction on the bus lane depending on the time of day. That gets very messy very quick though. The only benefit I'm seeing so far is dwel time reduction and a reduction in hold ups arising from dual carriageway traffic making left turning movements. And therre are cheaper ways to fix the dwell time problems through, reducing/eliminating cash and using the two different doors properly. It's a lot of money for such a little return.

I put the project in the same category as the DART airport spur, a lot of money for only minor improvement in services. It's as if we'd spend anything on a collection of higgildy piggildy projects rather than invest substantially in brand new high quality rapid transit corridors.

cgcsb · 06-02-2014 01:37PM

bk wrote: »

I meant it in a general sense, though I also meant that they can and probably will CPO and demolish some buildings to widen roads.

I also guess that in this particular circumstance, they plan on changing some streets to one way, etc. too. Perhaps they might even become bus only streets. For instance, looking at the maps, it is clear to Parnell Square East will become a two way street for the BRT, a very sensible move. I'm sure there will be many such reconfigurations.

re: demolishing buildings, you're having a laugh. Aside from the high property values you're talking about a lot of listed buildings and even demolition of non listed buildings would be found unacceptable in an EIS.

Sam Russell · 06-02-2014 01:49PM

There used to be feeder buses from UCD to Sydney Parade (about 25 years ago).

Could the old trolley buses be used to supply the RBT vehicles? These are electric buses, powered by two wires. They are currently used in Geneva, in addition to buses and trams, and have the advantage of trams in that they accelerate quickly, and less noisy.

LYONS TROLLEY BUSES:
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=a8LNHwBroTsGjM&tbnid=eujvyQfJxJ9XdM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.railway-technology.com%2Fprojects%2Flyon%2Flyon6.html&ei=e4TzUu6jJoLy7AbepoCQAw&bvm=bv.60799247,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNFguNwyatbDx7ksP3Cz1i-HHrMy8A&ust=1391777271872217

Godge · 06-02-2014 02:22PM

bk wrote: »

I meant it in a general sense, though I also meant that they can and probably will CPO and demolish some buildings to widen roads.

I also guess that in this particular circumstance, they plan on changing some streets to one way, etc. too. Perhaps they might even become bus only streets. For instance, looking at the maps, it is clear to Parnell Square East will become a two way street for the BRT, a very sensible move. I'm sure there will be many such reconfigurations.

That doesn't answer the questions in relation to the Blanchardstown/UCD route.

No matter what they do, it won't work.

Jack Noble · 06-02-2014 05:01PM

The more I look at this, the more I suspect - and fear - it's nothing like BRT systems in Europe, Americas or Australia.

It looks like souped buses in speedstripes with a few fancy stops and priority at junctions.

Looking at the suggested routes, where exactly is the room for dedicated BRT lanes and traffic lanes?

I'm looking forward to seeing what's put out to consultation later this month and would love to be proved wrong.

A big problem here is that we have few politicians who understand or even care about transportation and proper planning and development.

Most will either accept or kneejerk reject what 'experts' suggest - without having the slightest clue what they are talking about.

You only have to listen to the BS Leo comes out with - or look at the vacuous press releases 'welcoming' these developments sent out by TDs and councillors - to understand that.

Copyerselveson · 06-02-2014 05:11PM

The pols want to cut a ribbon and have a stone plaque in place to commemorate the ribbon cutting.

markpb · 06-02-2014 05:45PM

Godge wrote: »

That doesn't answer the questions in relation to the Blanchardstown/UCD route.

No matter what they do, it won't work.

That's a very defeatist attitude. If they do it on the cheap or in a hurry, it'll be poor. That doesn't mean it can't be done well though.

_Kaiser_ · 06-02-2014 06:49PM

monument wrote: »

Images of the Emerging Preferred Routes attached... these differ to the original maps...

"Swiftway" eh? Bird-like logo, new livery... [reads further down the thread] hmmm, fancified buses, DB-operated, existing roads/infrastructure you say....

045%20RA%20266%20July%202002%20img484%20(8).jpg

045%20RA%20266%20July%202002%20img484%20(8).jpg

Oh look... it's really just "CitySwift 2.0" and just like in that pic we can still "improve" it to make it "Super" and farm the buses out to other routes as well.

The more things change, the more they stay the same..

irishguy · 06-02-2014 09:41PM

I really don't see how it's going to work in harolds cross/terenure. It's quite narrow at points, so I don't see where the other buses and car are going to go.unless they have segregated lanes it's a total waste of money. Surely the eib/eu would lend us a few quid for metro north+ Dart underground. Or even a private investor

SimonQuinlank · 06-02-2014 09:49PM

Shortsighted and a lot of outlay for little return or improvement in service,which means Irish politicians will support it wholeheartedly.Building something just to be seen to be doing something.

Save the money and put it towards Metro,which would benefit the city for decades.

LXFlyer · 06-02-2014 10:16PM

As with everything like this - the devil will be in the detail, and frankly until we see detailed plans for entire routes (which basically will be the EIS) and exactly what the impact on other traffic (and indeed other bus routes), along with exactly what priority measures will be in place, it really is impossible to judge this.

I have to admit, the use of the word "priority" in these circumstances constantly rings alarm bells with me. It was supposed to be in place for both CitySwift and LUAS, but was quietly switched off for the former and also for the latter on the Red Line in the city centre due to the impact it had on traffic patterns.

Whatever happens this scheme has got to be done properly or not at all. We have had too many transport schemes (such as CitySwift) scuppered by other interests/lobby groups.

On a positive note, I welcome the changes in the routes to bring BRT into the city centre area. The original routings were too far away from the city centre to be any use. The question now will be - how practical will it be and how will it be given guaranteed priority.

Godge · 06-02-2014 10:38PM

lxflyer wrote: »

As with everything like this - the devil will be in the detail, and frankly until we see detailed plans for entire routes (which basically will be the EIS) and exactly what the impact on other traffic (and indeed other bus routes), along with exactly what priority measures will be in place, it really is impossible to judge this.

I have to admit, the use of the word "priority" in these circumstances constantly rings alarm bells with me. It was supposed to be in place for both CitySwift and LUAS, but was quietly switched off for the former and also for the latter on the Red Line in the city centre due to the impact it had on traffic patterns.

Whatever happens this scheme has got to be done properly or not at all. We have had too many transport schemes (such as CitySwift) scuppered by other interests/lobby groups.

On a positive note, I welcome the changes in the routes to bring BRT into the city centre area. The original routings were too far away from the city centre to be any use. The question now will be - how practical will it be and how will it be given guaranteed priority.

There are only a certain number of ways you can travel from Blanchardstown to the city. None of them have the space for proper BRT all the way unless they use the Phoenix Park. No amount of detail will change this.

Remember it is no use if you give the buses priority on Queen Street if they are stuck on the Cabra Road because the cars that were not given priority on Queen Street are lined up in front of them.

fly_agaric · 06-02-2014 11:09PM

irishguy wrote:

Surely the eib/eu would lend us a few quid for metro north+ Dart underground.

Yes I wonder about this. My pet conspiracy theory is that this has not happened (with either of the big transport projects) because fg fear building very expensive new stuff in Dublin while Irish economy is not exactly booming will anger most of their voters who don't live/work there!

edit: said anger of course being more damaging than any benefit/kudos they might get from those who'd be happy to see the projects get built!

LXFlyer · 06-02-2014 11:26PM

Godge wrote: »

There are only a certain number of ways you can travel from Blanchardstown to the city. None of them have the space for proper BRT all the way unless they use the Phoenix Park. No amount of detail will change this.

Remember it is no use if you give the buses priority on Queen Street if they are stuck on the Cabra Road because the cars that were not given priority on Queen Street are lined up in front of them.

Again, until the full EIS and all associated traffic changes are published - it's impossible to judge this. I appreciate what you're saying, but until we can see the full detail this debate is somewhat moot.

monument · 07-02-2014 12:32AM

Here's a possible solution for the Old Cabra Road... access controlled BRT like this is used for sections of BRT routes I've seen in the Netherlands...

Google Maps link and image for those who are not too bothered:

Key cross sections also attached.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

existing roads/infrastructure you say

No, reworked space.

That can be done -- I'm not saying it will be done.

Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

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