Sex educations in our schools

Faith · 04-02-2014 10:50PM #1

I heard this being discussed on the ray D'Arcy show this morning and then read this full article on the Irish Times website: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/sex-on-the-syllabus-what-are-our-children-taught-1.1677796?page=1

Basically, sex education is supposed to be on the syllabus for all secondary schools in Ireland, but many schools simply ignore the requirement. Others try and tackle the topic themselves, while some bring in outside, completely unregulated, groups to do it. Many of these groups are "abstinence only" groups, and include some infamous names like Youth Defence.

Some staggering quotes from the article:

More than two decades after the liberalisation of condom laws, contraception remains a hot-button issue in some schools. We spoke to 14 current and four recent post-primary students. Of 13 who mentioned contraception, five had or will get information, two got scant information on contraception, two were told nothing, and four got explicitly critical messages.

The textbook continues : “The failure rate of condoms in preventing teenage pregnancies and STIs among teenagers is even higher since other factors, such as alcohol, affect condom efficacy. What’s more, condoms provide no protection against emotional, psychological, mental, social, and moral effects. Sex before marriage often causes guilt, shame, broken hearts, shattered dreams, bad self-esteem, lost innocence, bad reputations, family problems, feelings of being used, depression, regret for losing one’s virginity, embarrassment and humiliation.”

Now, I've actually done some research into optimum sexual education for teenagers for my masters, and research indicates that comprehensive sexual education is the best way of lowering teen pregnancy rates (Kohler, Manhart and Lafferty, 2007). Adolescents who received comprehensive sex ed also began having sex later than those who got abstinence-only programs.

So ignoring the issue of sex is the worst thing we can do, along with spreading misinformation. But how can we change this? How can we persuade schools that a comprehensive sex education program is needed, and given at an early stage (as in, before every has started having sex!).

On the other hand, do you disagree with me completely? Do you think sex education has no place in schools? Do you fear we'll encourage kids to have sex if we teach them about it?

Did you get sex education in school? Was it any good? Did it happen too early/too late?

I'd love to get an idea of how parents and teachers feel about this too.

I'd love to get a good discussion going about this because I feel so passionate about it. I personally feel that secondary school students should be provided with the full facts so that they can act in confidence when the time comes, rather than pretending that, if we don't talk about it, they won't do it.

rawn · 04-02-2014 10:56PM

My sex education in school was in either first or second year, given by our tutor who giggled with embarrassment so much she had to stop by the time she mentioned the word "penis" and it was never brought up again. Tbh I would have benefited personally from a bit more info as we didn't have internet access at home at the time to ask questions (this was only 00/01, mind, but still not many kids had access to a computer with internet) and I was annoyed about it because I felt too embarrassed to ask anyone questions, I just had to wait to find out on my own

Having said that, there were some students who were sexually active around that time but there were no pregnancies all through to 6th year so I guess the silly bints had a bit of cop on without being educated formally about it.

awec · 04-02-2014 11:01PM

IMO the government need to grow a set when it comes to issues like this. But ultimately they are too afraid of upsetting the wrong people - the fact that anyone is able to go into a school and give messages against contraception is outrageous.

Zaph · 04-02-2014 11:02PM

I went to a Christian Brothers school in the 80s. Sex education consisted of the reproductive system chapter in our science book, and we had to wait until 3rd year to cover it. We usually spent at least a week on each chapter, but I seem to remember that one being completed in about 3 days. And the sad thing is that probably wasn't atypical of sex education in Ireland at that time. The fact that it is included on the syllabus now is a huge leap forward from those days. All they need to do now is get everyone teaching the same thing.

ferretone · 04-02-2014 11:07PM

I switched schools partway through secondary. We'd already had SE in the first school, which was a girls'-only school, and quite honestly they did an excellent job, thoroughly comprehensive, despite the fact that this was in the '80s, and a convent school to boot. The other school was mixed, and they had the course a little later, so I got it again. I think that seemed quite good too, but unfortunately it was difficult to tell, as the boys scarcely let the teacher get a word in, for all the giggling and slagging!

shruikan2553 · 04-02-2014 11:09PM

We learnt about puberty but not what to do with our bits once the blood went to them!

04-02-2014 11:12PM

Why is it the schools responsibility, one of my daughter was subject to a batty talk by an outside group brought in by the school, other parents and myself complained, the school had not realised what exactly the talk was going to be like

.

Why are parents not doing this it is part of parenting, and parents should not expect to pawn it off on to the school it is primarily their responsibility to educate their children and to do it when it is just information and before they here some vulgar distorted explanation form another child who thinks they know every thing, none of this nonsense that they don't want to spoil the child's innocence!!!! Why is sexual knowledge assonated with the loss of innocence in the first place it is such and unhealthy attitude.

Legs.Eleven · 04-02-2014 11:13PM

Zaph wrote: »

I went to a Christian Brothers school in the 80s. Sex education consisted of the reproductive system chapter in our science book, and we had to wait until 3rd year to cover it. We usually spent at least a week on each chapter, but I seem to remember that one being completed in about 3 days. And the sad thing is that probably wasn't atypical of sex education in Ireland at that time. The fact that it is included on the syllabus now is a huge leap forward from those days. All they need to do now is get everyone teaching the same thing.

I went to a co-ed, public secondary school and yeah that was about the height of my sex ed too (chapter in the biology book) and we flew through it. We were also made watch a dusty old VHS video of an illegal abortion in a class called pastrol care, but a load of us did a walk out. Everything since then has been trial and error. I agree sex ed is absolutely essential and I really hope things have changed to some degree since.

shopaholic01 · 04-02-2014 11:15PM

My sex education consisted of a nun hand drawing male and female genetalia. :rolleyes:

All students should receive detailed sex ed, including unbiased information on contraception, STIs, relationships and sexuality. They should be encouraged to wait until they are emotionally mature enough to deal with having sex, instead of focusing on the year on their birth cert.

catallus · 04-02-2014 11:15PM

The idea that condoms are the only way to limit sexually transmitted disease, without any grounding in moral teaching is a facetious lie.

Any educational approach needs to promote the idea of abstinence, (understood as not being overly promiscuous and treating sex with the respect it deserves as a human practice that has repercussions for everyone, especially the impressionable young).

Legs.Eleven · 04-02-2014 11:15PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Why is it the schools responsibility, one of my daughter was subject to a batty talk by an outside group brought in by the school, other parents and myself complained, the school had not realised what exactly the talk was going to be like.

Why are parents not doing this it is part of parenting, and parents should not expect to pawn it off on to the school it is primarily their responsibility to educate their children and to do it when it is just information and before they here some vulgar distorted explanation form another child who thinks they know every thing, none of this nonsense that they don't want to spoil the child's innocence!!!! Why is sexual knowledge assonated with the loss of innocence in the first place it is such and unhealthy attitude.

Well ideally it would be the parents responsibility but how can you ensure it will happen? What about students whose parents simply don't give a flying fcuk, for example? At least if the schools hold classes on it, you can ensure it's reaching a wider audience, so to speak.

Eeden · 04-02-2014 11:15PM

My child (in an Educate Together primary school) had a very good sex education programme in 6th class. But parents were consulted to an unbelievable degree - we were given a choice of programmes beforehand and thankfully, we opted for the most comprehensive one. Parents who weren't happy with it could refuse to let their child participate, but I don't think any of them did. The kids were allowed to ask (by way of a secret ballot each week) anything they wanted, and the co-ordinator of the class would email the questions to all of the parents, telling them the proposed answer.

I think part of the problem is with Catholic schools and with parents who themselves went to Catholic schools who still have The Guilt. They seem to have the idea that letting children know that sex exists means they will become curious (when they wouldn't otherwise be ??) and might start experimenting. Of course, you could argue that the Catholic Church had its reasons for keeping sex such a secret.... but I'll leave that for now.

Now, some of the parents in the ET school were also a bit wary - especially those whose children were the oldest in their families, interestingly enough. Those whose children had older siblings were considerably more relaxed.

The Backwards Man · 04-02-2014 11:17PM

It was the school chaplain who was our Sex Ed teacher. First morning he wheeled in a TV, stood nervously in front of the class, announced 'Ah, sure yous know more about it than me', and we spent the rest of the classes watching This Morning with Richard and Judy

GarIT · 04-02-2014 11:17PM

There is a bias here which a lot of people especially radio shows don't notice. We had great sex ed but when surveyed over half the class said we got very little or none at all. The group that said we got none would appear to be the group that just took the piss and didn't listen.

Femme_Fatale · 04-02-2014 11:18PM

I think a good start would be to stop calling ourselves sexually repressed and prudish and suffering from catholic guilt, the usual stuff that's trotted out by Irish people referring to everyone but themselves and their friends.
"We're" not. Self flagellation leads to self fulfilling prophecy.

Professey Chin · 04-02-2014 11:18PM

I got 2 classes in 1st year. Those classes were then replaced with religion. Last I heard about it in school.

Unknown Soldier · 04-02-2014 11:23PM

It is the job of the parents. Years ago it was handed off to the schools and church.

It is a natural thing that should be explained to kids when it is felt necessary, like "you know who" not really existing at a certain time of the year.

PopePalpatine · 04-02-2014 11:24PM

catallus wrote: »

The idea that condoms are the only way to limit sexually transmitted disease, without any grounding in moral teaching is a facetious lie.

Any educational approach needs to promote the idea of abstinence, (understood as not being overly promiscuous and treating sex with the respect it deserves as a human practice that has repercussions for everyone, especially the impressionable young).

Oh, I know where this is going.

Sex education centred around abstinence don't work, especially when they're heavily grounded in moralistic bullshit.

hairyprincess · 04-02-2014 11:26PM

Heard this discussion too. There is still hugely backward notions on the part of parents regarding sex education. I know parents in their 30's and early 40's who refuse to talk to their kids about it. They are happy for them to learn from their peers or from inappropriate TV programmes for their age.

The woman whose comment Ray read out who said she collected her child early from school because she didn't want her taking poster really shocked me. The child was Junior (out senior) infants and they were learning the correct terms for the body parts, she believed that that was sexualising the kids.

I really feel it is a parents responsibility to educate their child on their body and how to look after it, but as todays discussion showed it has to fall on the shoulders of the schools.

Faith · 04-02-2014 11:28PM

Zaph wrote: »

The fact that it is included on the syllabus now is a huge leap forward from those days. All they need to do now is get everyone teaching the same thing.

Absolutely, it's great that it's now on the syllabus. The next step is to make it mandatory.

mariaalice wrote: »

Why is it the schools responsibility, one of my daughter was subject to a batty talk by an outside group brought in by the school, other parents and myself complained, the school had not realised what exactly the talk was going to be like.

Why are parents not doing this it is part of parenting, and parents should not expect to pawn it off on to the school it is primarily their responsibility to educate their children and to do it when it is just information and before they here some vulgar distorted explanation form another child who thinks they know every thing, none of this nonsense that they don't want to spoil the child's innocence!!!! Why is sexual knowledge assonated with the loss of innocence in the first place it is such and unhealthy attitude.

A lot of people are just too embarrassed to talk about it. At least if it's done it schools, you've got someone who is ideally happy to talk about it all, and you can teach dozens at the same time.

Ideally, it should be parents, I agree. My mum told me everything I needed to know at a young enough age, and I never rushed into anything sexually or had any doubts about what happened. On the other hand, my best friend's mum never even told her what a period is.

I'd actually love to start going into schools and delivering a comprehensive sexual education program to junior cert students. But I wouldn't even know how to go about approaching it because there would be so many barriers.

P_1 · 04-02-2014 11:28PM

Had a one day class about it in primary school presented by an external 'teacher' that didn't have too much of a bias, admittedly it was delivered in Irish so perhaps the scope for bias was limited (attended a Gealscoil) and none whatsoever in secondary (VEC).

JupiterKid · 04-02-2014 11:30PM

catallus wrote: »

The idea that condoms are the only way to limit sexually transmitted disease, without any grounding in moral teaching is a facetious lie.

Any educational approach needs to promote the idea of abstinence, (understood as not being overly promiscuous and treating sex with the respect it deserves as a human practice that has repercussions for everyone, especially the impressionable young).

The 1950s are calling...

Pumpkinseeds · 04-02-2014 11:31PM

I was born in the 70's and my parents idea of sex education was to leave a book on my bed called Girls growing up' after I had my first period. A week later my mother asked if I had any questions, naturally I said no.

At school it was pretty much diagrams in 3rd year and had more of a get it out of the way approach than any real attempt at sex ed. I think it should be taught in schools and taught properly, including homosexuality and transgender. An all inclusive approach is what's needed, by competent teachers who aren't embarrassed by the subject.

04-02-2014 11:37PM

Faith wrote: »

Absolutely, it's great that it's now on the syllabus. The next step is to make it mandatory.

A lot of people are just too embarrassed to talk about it. At least if it's done it schools, you've got someone who is ideally happy to talk about it all, and you can teach dozens at the same time.

Ideally, it should be parents, I agree. My mum told me everything I needed to know at a young enough age, and I never rushed into anything sexually or had any doubts about what happened. On the other hand, my best friend's mum never even told her what a period is.

I'd actually love to start going into schools and delivering a comprehensive sexual education program to junior cert students. But I wouldn't even know how to go about approaching it because there would be so many barriers.

I am sure you would be fantastic at it if you ever got the job.

Although I fully support comprehensive sex education human nature being what it is people will still make fools of themselves over love and sex it is what make us the imperfect humans we are.

There is no escaping the pain of human relationships I am afraid.

job seeker · 04-02-2014 11:42PM

I was thought sex ed in 1st year at secondary school which consisted of the wood work teacher putting a condom on the handle of a yard brush..

LETHAL LADY · 04-02-2014 11:53PM

Went to an all girls catholic primary school and in sixth class we had our first sex education talk delivered by a nun. We had to get permission slips signed by our parents to attend and some girls were not allowed to attend the class at all. I couldn't understand this as even my mother, who is an old fashioned type, knew we weren't going to hear about anything that shocking especially with a nun doing the talk. It was farcical as we had to write our questions on pieces of paper which the nun then chose whether or not to read and reply to. Very basic and didn't teach us anything we didn't know already.

Next sex type education was science in first year. Again an all girls school and by a male science teacher who was mortified to say the least, but to be fair it wasn't his job to really go into anything but the mechanics of it.

Finally, pastoral care class in sixth year and yet again another nun doing the talking. Basically that talk was a lecture stating that if you don't have sex you will not get pregnant. The ultimate wrong according to the nun was to end up a teenage mother.

I tried to educate myself as much as I could as a teenager about the actual reality of it through reading what I could (magazines, books, no internet in my day), by my older sisters advice and by listening to my friends experiences. I have to say when I was that age it was all about making girls fearful of getting pregnant or being called a slut was the implication of the method of sex education I received.

I suppose that nowadays with so much information available online schools feel less of a need to deliver up to standard sex education classes. I think that parents hold a lot of responsibility when it comes to sex education in the first place and I hope to be able to deliver open and honest advice to my kids, but honestly I'm glad I am are a few years off that yet.

Forgot to mention it was the lovers guide vhs tape that taught my generation about sex.

Merkin · 04-02-2014 11:54PM

I went to a Catholic all girls boarding school and we had no sex ed whatsoever. We were wheeled into watch a VHS in one religion class in second year which glossed over menstruation and that was the extent of it!:eek:

Thankfully Mum told me the facts of life when I was about ten, if she hasn't and I was depending on our education system I'd still be none the wiser!

irish_goat · 04-02-2014 11:58PM

We had science sex ed and religious sex ed. The religious one was a video that had a middle aged man and woman discussing puberty and then the man talked about erections and told us that he liked to "think about icebergs" to make them go away.

To be fair, it's a good trick. :pac:

oldyouth · 05-02-2014 12:02AM

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

It is the job of the parents. Years ago it was handed off to the schools and church.

It is a natural thing that should be explained to kids when it is felt necessary, like "you know who" not really existing at a certain time of the year.

100% agree, but as we all know, some parents don't give a damn and we owe it to those kids to inform them as best we can

Faith · 05-02-2014 12:07AM

oldyouth wrote: »

100% agree, but as we all know, some parents don't give a damn and we owe it to those kids to inform them as best we can

How do we do that, though? How do we draw attention to the importance of sex education? Even the Irish Times article I linked to, while excellent, sat on the fence and made no real recommendations.

I'm at a loss as to how we get the message across.

RDM_83 again · 05-02-2014 12:08AM

What about just doing a completely "scientific/biological" approach to sex ed, like tell people how to avoid pregnancy and prevent std's all of which could be taught completely dispassionately without any need to actually go into the actual morass of morality and lifestyle.

Give the facts about proper oral contracetive and condom use, and std transmission from other activities, don't bother going into the " sex is a wonderful activity" or conversely the "sex should be two people in a committed relationship" these could be left to a different class (at an older age possibly) or by the parents.

When you get down to it harm avoidance/risk avoidance is actually pretty bloody simple. physical barrier methods prevent std transmission if used properly (including for oral), oral contraceptives are effective at pregnancy prevention if used properly, don't do anything thats likely to result in internal tearing.

Sex educations in our schools

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