Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

monument · 25-01-2014 12:40AM

Carawaystick wrote: »

Because there are hardly any tram stops on the Naas rd
And it it a completely different road type to drumcondra ( pubs, shops, students)

There's tram stops around every 600-500 meters, with BRT distance can go to higher or lower -- generally more than normal bus stops but still can drop to 250m (as tram stop can).

On the former N1, between Collins Ave and the NCR, I'd expect min/max 5-7 stops -- seven would be pushing it. Heading towards town, I'd expect something like this: 600m - 640m - 150m - 500m - 300m (further out likely longer distances and in the city centre low distances). Even with the 600m gaps there's no where on the road further than 300m from a stop.

The different road type is a positive for the designs pictured: It will make it easier and quicker to cross the road which is shown to reduce jaywalking; the speed limit is 50km/h rather than 60km/h near many of the Luas stop; the design is likely to bring off-peak speeds closer to that limit; the design would mean people are only crossing one lane of general traffic which is safer than the current set up when things go wrong.

ArmaniJeanss · 25-01-2014 03:27AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That's the way our tram lines are designed, trams on the inner, cars on the outer (prime example would be on the Naas road section of the Red Line) and it hasn't caused pedestrian mayhem.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Because there are hardly any tram stops on the Naas rd
And it it a completely different road type to drumcondra ( pubs, shops, students)

Well at the moment anyone on the Drumcondra Road who wants to get a bus, roughly 50% of the time they are going to have to fully cross from one side of the the road to the other anyway (seems a logical assumption that ~50% of such trips will currently start from a pub/shop/school/house on the 'wrong' side). And still there is no pedestrian mayhem.

I think you are overestimating this as a problem, people are generally pretty good at not getting knocked down.

cgcsb · 25-01-2014 05:29PM

dublin-texas wrote: »

While I like monument's example, I think this will lead to a massive increase in road death and accidents, imagine people in Ireland simply walking over the car drive lane to reach the bus shelter. I'm sure that the design will include pedestrian traffic lights at the stops, but in reality who is going to use them, everybody is just going to run across.

Plus even if we ever get a reliable bus system, unless the transit shelter is configured to cope with our "no bus for a while than 3 in row" for the passenger queues it is going to be dangerous to stand there.

I would love a BRT with dedicated physically separated bus lanes and quality stops but the bus stop might need to move to the pedestrian pathway.

ridiculous

Carawaystick · 26-01-2014 02:56AM

monument wrote: »

There's tram stops around every 600-500 meters, with BRT distance can go to higher or lower -- generally more than normal bus stops but still can drop to 250m (as tram stop can).

On the former N1, between Collins Ave and the NCR, I'd expect min/max 5-7 stops -- seven would be pushing it. Heading towards town, I'd expect something like this: 600m - 640m - 150m - 500m - 300m (further out likely longer distances and in the city centre low distances). Even with the 600m gaps there's no where on the road further than 300m from a stop.

The different road type is a positive for the designs pictured: It will make it easier and quicker to cross the road which is shown to reduce jaywalking; the speed limit is 50km/h rather than 60km/h near many of the Luas stop; the design is likely to bring off-peak speeds closer to that limit; the design would mean people are only crossing one lane of general traffic which is safer than the current set up when things go wrong.

The r110/810/Naas rd, from the M50 towards the city centre is dual carriageway until after the Bluebell tramstop.

The r132 from shortly after the tunnel mouths south to the city centre, is single carriageway, all the way to Quinns pub.
South of Griffith Avenue, putting any obstacle in the way of crossing the swords road is not preventing jaywalking, but impeding the residents of their liberty.
Jaywalking is only illegal within certain (<15m ) limits of pedestrian crossings.
If a person is crossing the swords rd, they are at present going to cross (apart from the pinch point at the cat&cage) going to cross a bus lane, a traffic lane, a traffic lane and a bus lane.

If the bus lane gets discarded, and you have a traffic lane and two magic brt lanes, and a traffic lane, then I can't see how the situation is improved.
People will cross to the middle of the road, and unless the brt can get about them, block both brt lanes. Unlike now where non-public traffic is put out.

monument · 26-01-2014 07:28PM

This is the middle of the road BRT set up in Nantes in France, it's much the same as I'm suggesting for Dublin:

The above is far more in keeping with the street use of the roads we're talking about compared to this:

In any case, for this section of road, the Manual For Urban Roads and Street demands about double the amount of crossing (mainly due to lack of crossing at all arms of junctions) and with crossing at both sides of most/all BRT stops you'd end up with around 30 crossing compared to something like 11 now. Also, if the manual was followed, all staggered crossing would be straightened.

Carawaystick wrote: »

The r110/810/Naas rd, from the M50 towards the city centre is dual carriageway until after the Bluebell tramstop.

The r132 from shortly after the tunnel mouths south to the city centre, is single carriageway, all the way to Quinns pub.

That section of the R132 is mostly four lanes or more -- there's a few dual carriageways which are easier to cross!

Carawaystick wrote: »

South of Griffith Avenue, putting any obstacle in the way of crossing the swords road is not preventing jaywalking, but impeding the residents of their liberty.

What's currently "impeding the residents of their liberty" is

Carawaystick wrote: »

Jaywalking is only illegal within certain (<15m ) limits of pedestrian crossings.
If a person is crossing the swords rd, they are at present going to cross (apart from the pinch point at the cat&cage) going to cross a bus lane, a traffic lane, a traffic lane and a bus lane.

If the bus lane gets discarded, and you have a traffic lane and two magic brt lanes, and a traffic lane, then I can't see how the situation is improved.
People will cross to the middle of the road, and unless the brt can get about them, block both brt lanes. Unlike now where non-public traffic is put out.

Having to deal with crossing two lanes of BRT or Luas in the middle of a road is far easier than having to deal with crossing two lanes of general traffic with bus lanes on the edge. It would look something like the narrow section of Nass Road (plus cycle paths)...

Aard · 26-01-2014 08:18PM

Plus busses (and of course, trams) come along at much longer intervals than cars do. Busses in BRT are kept to a single lane, while a two-lane carriageway allows cars to change lanes, which increases unpredictability.

monument · 03-02-2014 11:24AM

Rapid bus almost as fast as Metro North, says NTA
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/rapid-bus-almost-as-fast-as-metro-north-says-nta-1.1676924

Rapid bus scheme for Dublin ‘could cut journey times by 40%’
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/rapid-bus-scheme-for-dublin-could-cut-journey-times-by-40-1.1676911

stop · 03-02-2014 11:32AM

Swiftway seems to be the name for this new project:

whois info

domain: swiftway.ie
descr: Dublin Transportation Office
descr: Statutory Body
descr: Discretionary Name
admin-c: ARS104-IEDR
tech-c: AAM456-IEDR
registration: 09-October-2013
renewal: 09-October-2016
holder-type: Billable
wipo-status: N
ren-status: Active
in-zone: 1
nserver: ns1.blacknight.com
nserver: ns2.blacknight.com
source: IEDR

person: John Doyle
nic-hdl: ARS104-IEDR
source: IEDR

person: Blacknight.ie Hostmaster
nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR
source: IEDR

Sam Russell · 03-02-2014 12:34PM

Would it use the tunnel?

Davy · 03-02-2014 12:42PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it use the tunnel?

Route maps suggest no, but final routes wouldn't be decided.

Cool Mo D · 03-02-2014 12:56PM

How would ticketing work - part of the Dublin Bus network, or the Luas? It's propably too much to expect having properly integrated ticketing by then.

petronius · 03-02-2014 01:08PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/rapid-bus-scheme-for-dublin-could-cut-journey-times-by-40-1.1676911

While i think rapid dependable buses are an essential component of a city transport system, I see no evidence that they would not gradually become just like the existing buses and realities make them less efficient.

How would it differ from the QBC's or Aircoach would it improve capacity or integration with other public transport providers.

I recall previous suggestions of a Luas-like bus rather than the extension to the Point Depot! rather than a fixed line Light Rail

the only benefit I like about this proposal is the pay fair at the station and not have the bottleneck (and time delay) of paying the driver. Many european cities have integrated ticketing with validatiors(stamps) at stations and on carriages and it works

TheBandicoot · 03-02-2014 01:11PM

Crap name.

petronius · 03-02-2014 01:12PM

Blue Line was the name of another rapid bus/ luaslike bus option proposed http://dublinobserver.com/2010/10/dublin-blue-line-video-and-map/

monument · 03-02-2014 01:15PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it use the tunnel?

It's expected to be on-street.

Serving a large population; some high density areas; very high, high and mid level trip generators, and a train station before the city centre -- it seems like a good idea.

cgcsb · 03-02-2014 01:36PM

Agree, crap name and it adds another brand. It should be referred to as luas and use the same ticket zones, with the option to upgrade to lrt as demand increases.

Mr Pseudonym · 03-02-2014 01:53PM

petronius wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/rapid-bus-scheme-for-dublin-could-cut-journey-times-by-40-1.1676911

While i think rapid dependable buses are an essential component of a city transport system, I see no evidence that they would not gradually become just like the existing buses and realities make them less efficient.

How would it differ from the QBC's or Aircoach would it improve capacity or integration with other public transport providers.

I recall previous suggestions of a Luas-like bus rather than the extension to the Point Depot! rather than a fixed line Light Rail

the only benefit I like about this proposal is the pay fair at the station and not have the bottleneck (and time delay) of paying the driver. Many european cities have integrated ticketing with validatiors(stamps) at stations and on carriages and it works

Their lanes would be segregated from traffic, and they would receive preference at traffic lights.

Sam Russell · 03-02-2014 01:54PM

petronius wrote: »

Blue Line was the name of another rapid bus/ luaslike bus option proposed http://dublinobserver.com/2010/10/dublin-blue-line-video-and-map/

Same thing I would think. Looks like a tram but goes like a bus. Advantage is that it can be like a tram but then divert/extend as a bus.

December2012 · 03-02-2014 02:22PM

Can anybody find a good image of the blanchardstown route? Particularly the Dublin 15 end?

cgcsb · 03-02-2014 02:41PM

December2012 wrote: »

Can anybody find a good image of the blanchardstown route? Particularly the Dublin 15 end?

I don't think an exact route has been determined, however on the face of it, there will be significant sharing between the brt vehicles and private cars on the Blanchardstown and Tallaght routes.

cgcsb · 03-02-2014 02:48PM

December2012 wrote: »

Can anybody find a good image of the blanchardstown route? Particularly the Dublin 15 end?

heres a basic

mackerski · 03-02-2014 02:56PM

cgcsb wrote: »

heres a basic

They'd better have a good plan for how the bus will get from the Blanchardstown Centre onto the N3 via the Snugborough Road. Today that would leave you in gridlock as you negotiate one of the most contended junctions in the area. No amount of signal priority will fix that.

And the funny thing is that there is a freeflow loop onto the N3 citybound that they could readily use via the new contraflow bus lane at the NW corner of the centre.

But frankly, if the plan is to connect D15 to the city centre, and ignoring the fact that such buses would get snarled up at various parts of that route either way, the trick is to have a shuttle service to THE RAILWAY STATION that's already there on the Navan Road, having first tackled the poor timetable. Buses should complement rail, not compete with it.

cgcsb · 03-02-2014 03:07PM

Agreed. 2 or 3 bus routes connecting the sprawl to Castlenock, Coolmine and Clonsilla stations, with each service timed to meet trains and an improvement in train frequency on the line, would achieve the same objectives most probably at lower cost. However, this is Ireland so we'll build an expensive parallel bus route, that's bound to run into rush hour congestion at several parts of it's route. Obviously this is a better solution than 2 state owned branches of the same state owned company communicating with each other.

Dyr · 03-02-2014 03:26PM

Articulated busses dont really work in dublin

markpb · 03-02-2014 03:33PM

Bambi wrote: »

Articulated busses dont really work in dublin

They can if the route is well planned.

As an aside, I see that the NTA (or at least the Indo) are drawing similarities between what's being proposed here and the existing busway in Los Angeles, nicely ignoring the crucial fact that their busway was built atop an old train line (like our Green line was) giving them lots of segregation and a fairly direct route to start with.

Dyr · 03-02-2014 03:44PM

markpb wrote: »

They can if the route is well planned.

As an aside, I see that the NTA (or at least the Indo) are drawing similarities between what's being proposed here and the existing busway in Los Angeles, nicely ignoring the crucial fact that their busway was built atop an old train line (like our Green line was) giving them lots of segregation and a fairly direct route to start with.

they'd wanna plan a route with no bumps in the road so, be a bit like the james joyce challenge of walking across dublin without passing a pub

TheBandicoot · 03-02-2014 03:45PM

Personal opinion- D15 route doesn't really help me. I would have to take a normal bus to the centre to get it(~15 minutes at peak), then the BRT would only bring me to St Stephens Green, so I'd have to walk to get to work in the Docklands area. Versus just walking to the rail station and heading to the Docklands Station or Pearse.

The route also doesn't seem to connect with Luas Red line, or at least not easily.

EDIT: Also have no idea how they will fit this onto what is basically the current 39a route along the Navan Road/Prussia St without massive disruption and closing stretches off to private cars and removing bus lanes for Dublin Buses. As long as the alignment can be upgraded to a light rail route in future I suppose it is worth doing.

Dyr · 03-02-2014 03:57PM

this might be headbanger stuff, but something like a state version of the Uber car share program (minus the corporate suzzball factor) might work for peoples commutes. Be cheaper to implement than infrastructure changes anyway. Offer tax credits for each lift given or something similar.

ArmaniJeanss · 03-02-2014 04:08PM

monument wrote: »

Rapid bus almost as fast as Metro North, says NTA
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/rapid-bus-almost-as-fast-as-metro-north-says-nta-1.1676924

Rapid bus scheme for Dublin ‘could cut journey times by 40%’
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/rapid-bus-scheme-for-dublin-could-cut-journey-times-by-40-1.1676911

"A “BRT only” lane may not be feasible in the city centre,but could be incorporated on major roads on the outer sections of the routes."

That line from the first link is fairly discouraging, there's little point in building something that does 3/4s of the journey at speed only to head into a major traffic black spot. I have a similar bus lane journey each morning where the 38B can whizz from Mulhuddart to Cabra in 20 minutes, only to spend the next 15 minutes crawling from Cabra to Phibsboro down the single lane Cabra Road.

If its a replacement for Metros or Luas's then it should be like them for the whole journey.

LXFlyer · 03-02-2014 04:24PM

Plans of routes are due to be published on February 17th per the Irish Times today.

Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

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