Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

weisses · 21-01-2014 01:38PM

Penncil Dick wrote: »

All of which points to secularism as the ideal solution. Various people believe various things to various degrees. So remove all that, and put in place systems which don't depend on religion statistics at all. The same systems for everyone, regardless of religion, which are equal and fair for all.

I'm all for that ...rather yesterday then Tomorrow

My only issue is that the credibility of a nationwide census is disputed by a few polls from which i don't know how exactly they where conducted themselves

The census could be flawed yes but provide something valid as to why .. so you can make a case regarding the upcoming census

weisses · 21-01-2014 01:42PM

King Mob wrote: »

The polls show that those who consider themselves to be christian or catholic do not all share the same beliefs, even to the point of rejecting the defining beliefs of those religions.
Do the polls and surveys not show this?

I see the outcome but what would interests me is

Who got asked
What specifically was asked

All i saw was the outcome

King Mob wrote: »

Do you believe that all the people who claim to be Catholics believe the exact same things?

No
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Movement.

If that is what you meant ?

King Mob wrote: »

If not can you provide any statistics for the numbers of people who believe what?

No but Would probably be on the Internet somewhere (polled)

King Mob wrote: »

Can you explain what about the polls is flawed that causes you to reject them?

That is not the point they could be valid

But

You have issues with the outcome of the census and the questions asked but somehow the polls are accurate and viable without you knowing what questions where exactly asked and how they where phrased.

21-01-2014 01:48PM

weisses wrote: »

I see the outcome but what would interests me is

Who got asked
What specifically was asked

All i saw was the outcome

The links have been provided, if you are interested, go look.

weisses wrote: »

No

No but Would probably be on the Internet somewhere (polled)

So again, what useful information was gathered by the census?

weisses wrote: »

You have issues with the outcome of the census and the questions asked but somehow the polls are accurate and viable without you knowing what questions where exactly asked and how they where phrased.

The polls are irrelevant to the point I'm making. You agree that not all of those people who said they are catholic believe the same thing, making the census information useless.

The polls simply confirm the exact details of how differently they believe.

So please detail what about the questions in the polls lead to inaccurate results.

Penn · 21-01-2014 01:49PM

weisses wrote: »

The census could be flawed yes but provide something valid as to why .. so you can make a case regarding the upcoming census

The main flaw in the Census that I can see is that it is filled in by one person in the house at the stated time, on behalf of each person in that house. Which means even if you're over 18 but still living at home, you don't get to fill in your own information. This is a huge gap which can lead to information being wrong.

Let each person over the age of 16 fill in their own Census information.

weisses · 21-01-2014 02:40PM

Penncil Dick wrote: »

The main flaw in the Census that I can see is that it is filled in by one person in the house at the stated time, on behalf of each person in that house. Which means even if you're over 18 but still living at home, you don't get to fill in your own information. This is a huge gap which can lead to information being wrong.

Let each person over the age of 16 fill in their own Census information.

Yes completely agree

Its a flaw that could spit out wrong figures.

But to use the results of some polls (which nobody identified as valid) as evidence against a possible flaw in the census to me is just as flawed as the census could be

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 02:49PM

robindch wrote: »

I can probably guess the answer, but you're happy to go even though you don't believe everything (anything?) you're told to believe? And you're happy to lend your open support to an organization with the reputation of the RCC?

My own belief corresponds very closely with what the RCC teaches. What gave you the idea that I don't believe them?

Yes. Very happy.

weisses · 21-01-2014 02:49PM

King Mob wrote: »

You agree that not all of those people who said they are catholic believe the same thing, making the census information useless.

No now you are misrepresenting what I'm saying .. I provide you a link explaining different believes within the rcc which still makes them Catholic. I even asked if it was that what you meant

Now you jump from 1 false assumption in a wrong conclusion

King Mob wrote: »

The polls simply confirm the exact details of how differently they believe.

And i asked you is to how you came to believe the polls are accurate if you don't know the specifics of the questions asked ... I looked back in the thread but all i came across where the outcome of the polls

King Mob wrote: »

So please detail what about the questions in the polls lead to inaccurate results.

Again I'm not saying the polls are wrong... I'm asking why you believe they are accurate when you only know the outcome and not what and how the questions where formulated

Penn · 21-01-2014 02:56PM

weisses wrote: »

Yes completely agree

Its a flaw that could spit out wrong figures.

But to use the results of some polls (which nobody identified as valid) as evidence against a possible flaw in the census to me is just as flawed as the census could be

Evidence, or perhaps simply "indication"?

21-01-2014 03:05PM

weisses wrote: »

No now you are misrepresenting what I'm saying .. I provide you a link explaining different believes within the rcc which still makes them Catholic. I even asked if it was that what you meant

Now you jump from 1 false assumption in a wrong conclusion

So now you are saying that all Catholics believe the exact same thing?

If not, then the census contains no useful information other than how many people self identify as catholic.

weisses wrote: »

And i asked you is to how you came to believe the polls are accurate if you don't know the specifics of the questions asked ... I looked back in the thread but all i came across where the outcome of the polls

Again I'm not saying the polls are wrong... I'm asking why you believe they are accurate when you only know the outcome and not what and how the questions where formulated

Because no one's presented any reason to doubt them or provided examples of confounding factors like we have with the census. Because most of them were done by reputable poll taking companies who factor in flaws that effect the census. And because one conducted by a catholic organisation makes it look bad for the church, excluding the possibility that the numbers are over inflated.

Again, none of which is relevant or important unless you are insisting that 90% of people agree with the church.

weisses · 21-01-2014 03:08PM

Penncil Dick wrote: »

Evidence, or perhaps simply "indication"?

Indication yes and nothing more imo

Reading through this thread people seem to think its way more then just an indication though

weisses · 21-01-2014 03:18PM

King Mob wrote: »

So now you are saying that all Catholics believe the exact same thing?

If not, then the census contains no useful information other than how many people self identify as catholic.

No i don't say that ... again i provide a link which explain different movements(thinking) within the rcc

And even if people self identify themselves as catholic .... I did not see any evidence stating they are lying

King Mob wrote: »

Because no one's presented any reason to doubt them or provided examples of confounding factors like we have with the census.

Ohh so just because its not presented on thread you believe the polls are accurate .... just terrific

King Mob wrote: »

Because most of them were done by reputable poll taking companies who factor in flaws that effect the census. And because one conducted by a catholic organisation makes it look bad for the church, excluding the possibility that the numbers are over inflated.

Then why can't i find how these polls where taken and what questions where used and how they factored in the flaws that effect the census

King Mob wrote: »

Again, none of which is relevant or important unless you are insisting that 90% of people agree with the church.

No you should say None of which is relevant or important unless it proves that the 90% figure is wrong

gaynorvader · 21-01-2014 03:22PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

My own belief corresponds very closely with what the RCC teaches. What gave you the idea that I don't believe them?

Yes. Very happy.

Are you opposed to all forms of contraception, masturbation, vasectomies, etc.?
Do you believe in transubstantiation? What do you believe happens?
What are your views on homosexual relationships? Homosexual marriage?
How do you feel about eating meat on Fridays? Drinking alcohol on Good Friday?

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 03:26PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Are you opposed to all forms of contraception, masturbation, vasectomies, etc.?
Do you believe in transubstantiation? What do you believe happens?
What are your views on homosexual relationships? Homosexual marriage?
How do you feel about eating meat on Fridays? Drinking alcohol on Good Friday?

No, no, no, yes (transubstantiation), Good for them, don't believe in same-sex marriage, meat of fridays thing is very much optional nowadays, I try to fast Good Friday and Ash Wednesday.

21-01-2014 03:33PM

weisses wrote: »

No i don't say that ... again i provide a link which explain different movements(thinking) within the rcc

And even if people self identify themselves as catholic .... I did not see any evidence stating they are lying

Ohh so just because its not presented on thread you believe the polls are accurate .... just terrific

Then why can't i find how these polls where taken and what questions where used and how they factored in the flaws that effect the census

No you should say None of which is relevant or important unless it proves that the 90% figure is wrong

Your ignoring my point.

Do the people who identify as catholic in the census all agree with the Churches position on social issues such as homosexuals or abortion?
Yes or no?

If yes, back this up.
If no, then your pedantic points about the other polls are irrelevant because you agree with what they indicate.

weisses · 21-01-2014 03:54PM

King Mob wrote: »

Your ignoring my point.

Do the people who identify as catholic in the census all agree with the Churches position on social issues such as homosexuals or abortion?
Yes or no?

Honest answer ... I don't know

Now can you address my point ?

why you believe the polls are accurate when you only know the outcome and not what and how the questions where formulated

And its not pedantic .. its what is used to discredit the census

I want to know what verifiable facts in these polls are more accurate then the census

21-01-2014 04:03PM

weisses wrote: »

Honest answer ... I don't know

So then what about the polls that show that they don't?
Are you now saying they aren't accurate?

weisses wrote: »

Now can you address my point ?

And its not pedantic .. its what is used to discredit the census

I want to know what verifiable facts in these polls are more accurate then the census

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the points people are making.

The number recorded in the census simply does not reflect the beliefs of those people. It just records what name people self identify as.
The polls show that "Catholics" have diverse beliefs.
And since Catholics have diverse beliefs we cannot say "the country is 90% catholic, therefore 90% of people believe that abortion should be illegal."

So it is not that the polls supersede the numbers in the census, they just show the limitation of the usefulness of that number.

J_E · 21-01-2014 04:04PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

According to the 2011 Census (Wikipedia) there were 3,861,335 catholics in the Republic of Ireland.

According to this report (Practice and Belief amongst Roman Catholics in Ireland - by the Bishops Conference, academically led and funded by EU Framework grants) - Fig 1 shows that, in 2009/10, 42.1% of Irish catholics attended mass once per week and 6% attended more than once a week.

So 48.1% of 3,861,335 is 1,857,302 people at least once a week.

Now, even allowing a (HUGE) margin of error that's comfortably in excess of 1 million people at mass each week in the Republic alone.

You should stick your head into churches in your area from time to time Bannasidhe. You might be surprised by the numbers there and the things being said.

42.1% of Irish Catholics attending mass once a week? You're kidding me. More like once a year. Seriously, even if you were a devout Catholic, you're only deluding yourself with a statistic as crazy as that. Seriously, come on now...the majority of people who are marked Catholic on the census are Catholic in name only.

I know many, many families who will always write down Catholic on the census out of some sense of conformity but won't attend mass, don't agree with church, and have varying views on issues like abortion, most at peace or supportive of homosexuality, etc.

gaynorvader · 21-01-2014 04:10PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No, no, no, yes (transubstantiation), Good for them, don't believe in same-sex marriage, meat of fridays thing is very much optional nowadays, I try to fast Good Friday and Ash Wednesday.

Thanks for your answers!

You do appear to be quite at odds with most of the Catholic teachings I brought up. Only recently the previous pope asked people to start practising penance on Fridays.
I don't want to attack your stances on any of these issues, I'm just challenging your self-identification as Catholic, when you seem to disagree with quite a few of their beliefs. When you identify as a Catholic, I immediately think you disagree with contraception, etc. To me, it would seem that the label "Catholic" is not specific enough to tell me anything about the person other than that they are probably Christian. That's why I suggested there should be more denominations of Catholicism as I don't think the Pope can be believed to speak for most of them as it stands.

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 04:11PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

42.1% of Irish Catholics attending mass once a week? You're kidding me. More like once a year. Seriously, even if you were a devout Catholic, you're only deluding yourself with a statistic as crazy as that.

I'd be delighted if you could point me to an alternative, evidence based weekly mass attendance figure for Ireland. I'm all ears.

Just because a fact doesn't correspond to your experience, doesn't mean its not true. Might just mean you have to get out more.

weisses · 21-01-2014 04:15PM

King Mob wrote: »

So then what about the polls that show that they don't?
Are you now saying they aren't accurate?

Nope i cannot say that even as much as you can say they are accurate

I even believe the census is not accurate that is a statistical fact

King Mob wrote: »

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the points people are making.

The number recorded in the census simply does not reflect the beliefs of those people. It just records what name people self identify as.
The polls show that "Catholics" have diverse beliefs.
And since Catholics have diverse beliefs we cannot say "the country is 90% catholic, therefore 90% of people believe that abortion should be illegal."

If it where just points ... what is suggested by people here is that its almost fact that because of what the polls state the census is wrong ...

Its 90 % christian and not catholic alone ... not to be pedantic

King Mob wrote: »

So it is not that the polls supersede the numbers in the census, they just show the limitation of the usefulness of that number.

But what makes it that these polls are so infallible ?

The outcome off these polls suits the common believe in this forum ... it doesn't make them more accurate

Bannasidhe · 21-01-2014 04:16PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'd be delighted if you could point me to an alternative, evidence based weekly mass attendance figure for Ireland. I'm all ears.

Just because a fact doesn't correspond to your experience, doesn't mean its not true. Might just mean you have to get out more.

I would be delighted if you supplied evidence for your claim re: attendance at Mass - seeing as you were the one who first introduced this topic and have admitted there is no actual verified headcount it's a bit rich that you are now demanding evidence based proof from someone who disagrees with your original guesstimate.

J_E · 21-01-2014 04:16PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'd be delighted if you could point me to an alternative, evidence based weekly mass attendance figure for Ireland. I'm all ears.

Just because a fact doesn't correspond to your experience, doesn't mean its not true. Might just mean you have to get out more.

I would hazard a guess that my knowledge of things might be a little truer than yours

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 04:16PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Thanks for your answers! You do appear to be quite at odds with most of the Catholic teachings I brought up. Only recently the previous pope asked people to start practising penance on Fridays.
I don't want to attack your stances on any of these issues, I'm just challenging your self-identification as Catholic, when you seem to disagree with quite a few of their beliefs. When you identify as a Catholic, I immediately think you disagree with contraception, etc. To me, it would seem that the label "Catholic" is not specific enough to tell me anything about the person other than that they are probably Christian. That's why I suggested there should be more denominations of Catholicism as I don't think the Pope can be believed to speak for most of them as it stands.

Your focussing on a tiny amount of issues. You never asked if I believed what the RCC says about:

Salvation,
Hope,
Confession,
Prayer,
Forgiveness,
Heaven,
Hell,
Saints,
Miracles,
Rights of workers,
Poverty,
Care of the sick,
Love,
Joy,
Violence,
Art,
Music,
Latin,
Monastic life,
Charity,
Nature and the environment,
Education,
etc
etc

A narrow focus on sex, meat of fridays and drinking on good friday is just that - narrow.

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 04:18PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that my knowledge of things might be a little truer than yours

Really? Why?

At least I pointed to a verifiable and academically rigorous source for the 42.1% figure. You're just going on a hunch based on your own experience.

Cabaal · 21-01-2014 04:19PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Your focussing on a tiny amount of issues. You never asked if I believed what the RCC says about:

Translation.......don't talk about the stuff I find deeply uncomfortable and don't want to comment on because I support the RCC and go to mass no matter what.

gaynorvader · 21-01-2014 04:19PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Your focussing on a tiny amount of issues. You never asked if I believed what the RCC says about:

Salvation,
Hope,
Confession,
Prayer,
Forgiveness,
Heaven,
Hell,
Saints,
Miracles,
Rights of workers,
Poverty,
Care of the sick,
Love,
Joy,
Violence,
Art,
Music,
Latin,
Monastic life,
Charity,
Nature and the environment,
Education,
etc
etc

A narrow focus on sex, meat of fridays and drinking on good friday is just that - narrow.

Largely because these issues are common across different Christian denominations, they are not what sets Catholics apart, if you get me.

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 04:19PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would be delighted if you supplied evidence for your claim re: attendance at Mass - seeing as you were the one who first introduced this topic and have admitted there is no actual verified headcount it's a bit rich that you are now demanding evidence based proof from someone who disagrees with your original guesstimate.

He disagreed with the 42.1% figure but couldn't suggest what an alternative figure might be.

Bannasidhe · 21-01-2014 04:20PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Really? Why?

At least I pointed to a verifiable and academically rigorous source for the 42.1% figure. You're just going on a hunch based on your own experience.

Pointed to. Quote mined more like.

Up to 42.1% now I see - did someone get out the miracle gro?

I Heart Internet · 21-01-2014 04:20PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Largely because these issues are common across different Christian denominations, they are not what sets Catholics apart, if you get me.

I really have to disagree with you there.

J_E · 21-01-2014 04:22PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Really? Why?

At least I pointed to a verifiable and academically rigorous source for the 42.1% figure. You're just going on a hunch based on your own experience.

Well, let's give another constrasting quote to shake things up;

As recently as the 1970s, almost 90 percent of Irish Catholics went to Mass at least once a week. Today, the number is closer to 25 percent. And in some parts of Dublin, just two or three percent of self-described Catholics regularly go to church.

It's not accurately verifiable, I don't care who you talk or point to. There's no point rattling it down to a single number, but there's no doubt about the levels of attendance being dire nowadays and mostly consisting of a generation of people who lived in a time where the RC was a lot different.

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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