Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

20-01-2014 11:37AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. Give your own opinion.
To quote you again:

Part of being a Catholic includes having to go to mass every week.
If a person believes this, but fails to do so, it's simply them sinning.
However if a person believes that they do not need to go to mass at all (or simply don't know that they are supposed to), then their beliefs fall out of alignment with Catholicism.

Does a survey of mass-goers give conclusive proof of the number of Catholics in Ireland when by your own admission not all Catholics attend mass?

No it doesn't. But that's a dishonest representation of what Mark was saying.

Do you think that the census gives an accurate number of people to actually adhere to the defining beliefs of Catholicism?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I've been ignoring it because it's irrelevant to what we are discussing, but if you insist, and with the understanding that I am no expert.

Nope, it's very relevant to the discussion.

Kinda hypocritical for you to badger people about not answering questions when you ignored one.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The difference between Shia and Sunni is a split which occured due to conflict over the lineage of Muhammed. They recognise different ahaditha based on this.

So if someone specifically rejects the lineage and ahaditha accepted by Shia Muslims, would they be correct in calling themselves Shiites? How about vice versa?
How about someone who rejects the Quran as a whole, are they Muslim if they claim they are?

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 12:22PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

How many? And what is it that they want about a catholic ethos? Nobody seems to know what a catholic ethos is but there are many people who want one some how.

See my explanation from a few days ago:

In short (as I could have sworn I said, but there's a lot on this thread...), the catholic ethos of a school is typically based upon the gospel teachings of Christ and the teachings of the RCC in it's current Cathecism and Compendium of Catholic Social Teaching.

Here's a link to guidance on formulating a "Schedule" for a catholic primary school in the Diocese of Kerry. They don't seeme to use the word ethos - they use the word "Schedule". http://www.dioceseofkerry.ie/media/uploads/The%20Schedule%20of%20a%20Catholic%20School.pdf

How many? I dunno. Enough to ensure most RCC schools are thriving.

Delirium · 20-01-2014 12:28PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

See my explanation from a few days ago:

How many? I dunno. Enough to ensure most RCC schools are thriving.

Considering they have no competition in a lot of towns and villages, you can't really make that statement. It's a choice of RCC school or no school. Really doubt many parents would choose no school even if it means sending them to a school they have problems with.

robindch · 20-01-2014 12:40PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

3-Do you just pick and choose based on whatever suits you at the time

I'm saying that the Tsarnaevs are just as islamic as are the self-identifying catholics who claim they're catholic.

smacl · 20-01-2014 01:34PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

How many? I dunno. Enough to ensure most RCC schools are thriving.

Most schools are thriving -> most schools are RCC -> Most RCC schools are thriving.

There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the RCC makes any contribution to the fact, merely that they are part of a majority position. However, ask most Catholics in their 40s and 50s if they think education has improved since the brothers and the nuns have been removed from the equation and I would suggest that you would get an emphatic majority 'Yes'.

I would also suggest that ET schools receive a far higher demand for places than RCC schools. They also seem to be thriving, as evidenced by a high level of representation in the recent young scientist expo. (First year that my youngest daughter exhibited. Sigh!)

shruikan2553 · 20-01-2014 01:45PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

See my explanation from a few days ago:

Here's a link to guidance on formulating a "Schedule" for a catholic primary school in the Diocese of Kerry. They don't seeme to use the word ethos - they use the word "Schedule". http://www.dioceseofkerry.ie/media/uploads/The%20Schedule%20of%20a%20Catholic%20School.pdf

How many? I dunno. Enough to ensure most RCC schools are thriving.

So they want their children to be taught that by not going to mass, homosexuality, divorce, sex before marriage, contraception and not being a catholic are all wrong even if they are ok with these things themselves?

Of course they're thriving, most of the schools in the country are RCC. If you dont want a place in one you need to move house, get a new job and even then you may not get into an ET and end up sending your child to a RCC school. There is a growing demand for ET schools while they are having to close some of the smaller RCC schools.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 01:54PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

So they want their children to be taught that by not going to mass, homosexuality, divorce, sex before marriage, contraception and not being a catholic are all wrong even if they are ok with these things themselves?

As Claire from Modern family says:

Claire: Your kids don't need to know who you were before you had them. They need to know who you wish you were, and they need to try to live up to that person. They're gonna fall short, but better they fall short of the fake you than the real you.

Few Irish catholics share their church's formal position on homosexuality btw - so parents don't send their kids to the local RCC to be thought that (which in my experience they simply aren't). Most people can live with this accomodation (until such time as, perhaps, the powers that be catch up and put on paper a more "realistic" position on human sexuality. I know that kind of "get-along" fudge would be abhorent to people who believe in an "all-or-nothing" religion but many people are fine with it.

shruikan2553 · 20-01-2014 02:01PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

As Claire from Modern family says:

Few Irish catholics share their church's formal position on homosexuality btw - so parents don't send their kids to the local RCC to be thought that (which in my experience they simply aren't). Most people can live with this accomodation (until such time as, perhaps, the powers that be catch up and put on paper a more "realistic" position on human sexuality. I know that kind of "get-along" fudge would be abhorent to people who believe in an "all-or-nothing" religion but many people are fine with it.

These parents want to send their children to a school that follows RCC teachings but only the ones that the parents agree with which could be anything because you can think anything and be a catholic.

Do parents want their children taught the teachings of the RCC or not? You seem to think they do but the parents dont have to think these things themselves and expect the church to teach based on what is acceptable today even if its against church teachings which sort of goes against that they want a RCC ethos.

Cabaal · 20-01-2014 02:13PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

As Claire from Modern family says:

Seriously?
You are trying to backup your views by quoting a made up character in a TV show?

I know you like believing that made up things are important, after all your belief in god proves this but now its just getting really silly.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 02:16PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Seriously,
You are trying to backup your views by quoting a made up character in a TV show?

I just thought it was funny and kinda related to the response I was going to give.

You're no fun Cabaal!

Cabaal wrote: »

I know you like believing that made up things are important, after all your belief in god proves this but now its just getting really silly.

I'm a silly guy.

20-01-2014 02:17PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

As Claire from Modern family says:

Few Irish catholics share their church's formal position on homosexuality btw - so parents don't send their kids to the local RCC to be thought that (which in my experience they simply aren't). Most people can live with this accomodation (until such time as, perhaps, the powers that be catch up and put on paper a more "realistic" position on human sexuality. I know that kind of "get-along" fudge would be abhorent to people who believe in an "all-or-nothing" religion but many people are fine with it.

So which parts of the Catholic Ethos that are uniquely provided by RCC schools that attract so many parents exactly?
Please quote from the guidelines you provided.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 02:25PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

These parents want to send their children to a school that follows RCC teachings but only the ones that the parents agree with which could be anything because you can think anything and be a catholic.

Do parents want their children taught the teachings of the RCC or not? You seem to think they do but the parents dont have to think these things themselves and expect the church to teach based on what is acceptable today even if its against church teachings which sort of goes against that they want a RCC ethos.

This query again, huh?

Does the RCC have a set of beliefs to abide by? - Yes
Does every RCC member abide by that set of beliefs - No
Are these people kicked-out - No (hardly ever)
Do RCC schools have an ethos in keeping with the beliefs of the RCC - Yes
Do all students and parents have to agree, in principal, with the thrust of that ethos - Yes (although I'm sure anyone ever actually asks)
Do all students and parents have to abide by every letter of these beliefs - No
Do parents send kids to RCC schools even though they don't agree with everything the RCC says - YES
Are these parents still RCC - YES (unless they don't want to be)
Is a RCC ethos pretty much a carte blanc to include anything - No

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 02:29PM

King Mob wrote: »

So which parts of the Catholic Ethos that are uniquely provided by RCC schools that attract so many parents exactly?
Please quote from the guidelines you provided.

Well I'd have thought the first paragraph sums it up:

A Roman Catholic School (which is established in connection with the Minister)
aims at promoting the full and harmonious development of all aspects of the
person of the pupil: intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a
living relationship with God and with other people.
The school models and promotes a philosophy of life inspired by belief in God
and in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The Catholic school provides Religious education for the pupils in accordance
with the doctrines, practices and tradition of the Roman Catholic Church and

promotes the formation of the pupils in the Catholic Faith.

weisses · 20-01-2014 02:34PM

robindch wrote: »

I'm saying that the Tsarnaevs are just as islamic as are the self-identifying catholics who claim they're catholic.

So could self-identifying Catholics who claim they're catholic not actually be catholic ?

20-01-2014 02:49PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Well I'd have thought the first paragraph sums it up:

A Roman Catholic School (which is established in connection with the Minister)
aims at promoting the full and harmonious development of all aspects of the
person of the pupil: intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and with other people.
The school models and promotes a philosophy of life inspired by belief in God
and in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The Catholic school provides Religious education for the pupils in accordance
with the doctrines, practices and tradition of the Catholic Church and
promotes the formation of the pupils in the Catholic Faith.

But you just said that most Catholics don't agree with the doctrines, practices and traditions of the Catholic Church. Why would this attract them?

What does the rest of the stuff actually entail practically? Cause to me it just sounds like a lot of waffle with no baring in the school.

What about "catholics" who don't believe in god or the resurrection of Jesus?

Zubeneschamali · 20-01-2014 02:49PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

A Roman Catholic School ... aims at promoting the full and harmonious development of all aspects of the person of the pupil: intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and with other people.

Luckily in my experience, their aim is really bad, and the kids don't notice much of the religious stuff.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 02:54PM

King Mob wrote: »

But you just said that most Catholics don't agree with the doctrines, practices and traditions of the Catholic Church.

No I didn't. You know I didn't Mob.

I said that the formal RCC line on homosexuality doesn't float many people's boats in Ireland but that most people were content to let that slide.

King Mob wrote: »

What does the rest of the stuff actually entail practically? Cause to me it just sounds like a lot of waffle with no baring in the school.

Love God, love your neighbour. Same as ET school except with the "love God" bit added.

King Mob wrote: »

What about "catholics" who don't believe in god or the resurrection of Jesus?

They can enjoy the "love thy neighbour" bit.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 02:56PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Luckily in my experience, their aim is really bad, and the kids don't notice much of the religious stuff.

Or they are oppressed daily by the incessant, hateful indoctrination. Depends who you listen to I guess.

My guess is that it's closer to what you said Zub.

swampgas · 20-01-2014 02:57PM

weisses wrote: »

So could self-identifying Catholics who claim they're catholic not actually be catholic ?

I don't think they all are (it depends on your definition of Catholic), but I Heart Internet seems to think otherwise.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 02:58PM

swampgas wrote: »

I don't think they all are (it depends on your definition of Catholic), but I Heart Internet seems to think otherwise.

As I've said time and time again on this thread, I may think someone "isn't a real catholic" but I have ZERO say or influence over how they perceive themselves and their beliefs.

weisses · 20-01-2014 03:03PM

swampgas wrote: »

I don't think they all are (it depends on your definition of Catholic), but I Heart Internet seems to think otherwise.

I wasn't quoting him so apparently there are people on opposite sides of the discussion agreeing, that's good

20-01-2014 03:05PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No I didn't. You know I didn't Mob.

I said that the formal RCC line on homosexuality doesn't float many people's boats in Ireland but that most people were content to let that slide.

The RCC line on homosexuality is part of the doctrine. Going to mass, which most catholics do not do, is part of the practice. And a large proportion of Catholics do not believe the traditions, such as transubstaniation.

So again, what attracts people to the Ethos?

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Love God, love your neighbour. Same as ET school except with the "love God" bit added.

So again, how does this come into practical school life exactly?
What about it is unique to RCC schools that makes them attractive?

I Heart Internet wrote: »

They can enjoy the "love thy neighbour" bit.

Which you say is part of every school.

Or they are oppressed daily by the incessant, hateful indoctrination. Depends who you listen to I guess.

My guess is that it's closer to what you said Zub.

Or you know, they get a platform to spout the parts of their doctrine that you say that most people reject.

robindch · 20-01-2014 03:34PM

weisses wrote: »

So could self-identifying Catholics who claim they're catholic not actually be catholic ?

That's what I've said in many previous posts. "I Heart Internet" disagrees and thinks that the term "catholic" can mean anything you like, which means it means nothing at all.

Personally, I couldn't care less what people self-identify as, so long as what they self-identify as actually has some meaning, especially when it's something that's used by certain individuals to acquire and perpetuate political influence.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 03:36PM

King Mob wrote: »

The RCC line on homosexuality is part of the doctrine. Going to mass, which most catholics do not do, is part of the practice. And a large proportion of Catholics do not believe the traditions, such as transubstaniation.

So again, what attracts people to the Ethos?.

The inclusion of the "loving God" bit in the ethos I guess.

King Mob wrote: »

So again, how does this come into practical school life exactly?
What about it is unique to RCC schools that makes them attractive?

Catholic pupils are thought that loving God is good. People want to send their kids to schools that teach them (in word and practice) to love God and love their neighbour.

King Mob wrote: »

Which you say is part of every school.

Yes. I imagine the basic "love thy neighbour" is taught in every single school in Ireland.

King Mob wrote: »

Or you know, they get a platform to spout the parts of their doctrine that you say that most people reject.

You say spout, I say teach. Zuben says they have bad aim anyway.

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 03:38PM

robindch wrote: »

That's what I've said in many previous posts. "I Heart Internet" disagrees and thinks that the term "catholic" can mean anything you like, which means it means nothing at all.

Personally, I couldn't care less what people self-identify as, so long as what they self-identify as actually has some meaning, especially when it's something that's used by certain individuals to acquire and perpetuate political influence.

Was this man a catholic Robin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Smyth

swampgas · 20-01-2014 03:42PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Was this man a catholic Robin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Smyth

But surely all that matters is what the man himself thinks he is, according to your version of things? If Brendan Smyth thinks he is a Catholic, do you just take his word for it, or would you prefer to judge his Catholicism based on his beliefs or actions perhaps?

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 03:50PM

swampgas wrote: »

But surely all that matter is what the man himself thinks he is, according to your version of things? If Brendan Smyth thinks he is a Catholic, do you just take his word for it, or would you prefer to judge his Catholicism based on his beliefs or actions perhaps?

My point is, he can describe himself as a catholic (and no doubt did - as a catholic priest) despite indulging in behaviour so bad.

I find people rarely speak of these criminals as simply child-abusers. They are usually referred to as "paedophile catholic priest..." Much as the catholic church might want to disown them, it can't.

robindch · 20-01-2014 03:51PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Was this man a catholic Robin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Smyth

I'm sure he said he was and that seems to be the clincher for you.

Or am I not understanding your "anything goes" position correctly?

I Heart Internet · 20-01-2014 03:56PM

robindch wrote: »

Or am I not understanding your "anything goes" position correctly?

No. You've got it just right. Even the very, very, very worst of people may claim to be catholics.

For such a meddlesome, discriminatory church, we take pretty much everyone.

swampgas · 20-01-2014 03:57PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

My point is, he can describe himself as a catholic (and no doubt did - as a catholic priest) despite indulging in behaviour so bad.

I find people rarely speak of these criminals as simply child-abusers. They are usually referred to as "paedophile catholic priest..." Much as the catholic church might want to disown them, it can't.

I think the term "catholic" in "catholic priest" is simply defining which denomination of priest he is, rather than being a description of his religion (although that should be a given). The church can always defrock priests, and then they are ex-catholic priests (if that), which is as close to disowning as the church ever seems to get.

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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