No place for child in local school

Hi. This is for the lady who first posted about her grand daughter. I'm sorry your daughter is in such a stressful position. Also sorry some posters may have been less than sympathetic. I'm in the same position. Moved back to the Glenageary area last year. So we were way down list for our chosen school. It's such a stressful position when you think you should be fine. Have been reassured by the school all is fine. Have your daughter, for whom you only want the best, attending a creche where all the children are going to the same school, then find yourself facing the unknown when it becomes clear she won't be going to the school you'd hoped for. I can say we have visited two schools that have places, saint kevins in sallynoggin and saint Josephs in dun Laoghaire. neither was on our list but both have places. Both are deis schools but that has a positive side too. Smaller classes. Free lunches. We preferred saint kevins - the principal and junior infants teacher both lovely, we looked I'm on classes and playtime and the children seemed happy, well behaved....we will probably send her there assuming no place comes up in one of the other schools we have her name down for on the waiting list for. It would seem now that some young families are able to afford to move back to these areas the schools that used to be able to accomodate all applicants recently suddenly can't. Who knows, if your grand daughter ends up there they may be friends. Best of luck to your daughter and reassure her she's not alone in this position.

Hi
I am in the same boat, I found out on Thursday (only after contacting the school myself) that my son has not received a place in our local catholic school which is contained within out estate.

I would like to point out, he is local shares the same road, catholic, eldest child so unfortunately no siblings to follow, I attended the secondary school as a past pupil, his name has been down since the week of his birth, and he currently attendeds the Montessori in the grounds of the school. My entire family attended the primary school and my two foster brothers currently attend

When I contacted the school I received an email from the principal saying he hadn't received a place and she hopes I have his name down in another school.

All other schools fee and non feeing are full I have tried 8 of them, all have said there over subscribed and that there enrolment criteria has to accommodate locality etc and to contact my local school.

I was not informed of the section 29 appeals or the NEWB, or any options open to me.

I also wasn't issued an enrolment policy when I applied for my son.

After contacting the minister of education he advised that I'm entitled to this information and received the criteria yesterday

1. Siblings (all)
2. Past pupils
3. Staff children
4. Local and catholic (on an age basis April 2009 to match 2010 cut off)
5. Local and not catholic etc
6 non local.... Etc etc

So my "eldest"
Local catholic child is now 19th on a cancellation list for a "brand" new school building that didn't increase it's class rooms despite being over subscribed since changing from an all girls school to mixed!

The second email I received stated they received 208 applications and only 58 places. The principal is not helpful or understanding actually quite power hungry (from past experiences).

I'm not being considered a pasty pupil despite my affiliation with the school, and my family currently attending. We moved home to be beside his school and my family home so that my mother who minds my children when I work could walk them to and from school with her foster children!

I actually cannot believe the policy that is in place and that locality is only considered at option 4! I'm sickened that there isn't a fairer method of applying places and I don't think a blanket offering to siblings should be alone on criteria one!!

I am doing what I can to fight this, because at this moment my child has no school place! I have worked my ass off to move and love in the area of the school to ensure he wasn't dragged up out of bed all hours to be brought miles to school to sit in an early class so I can make it to work! I'm so angry!

I have contacted the school to arrange a meetings, TD's, education board, NEWB, arch bishop of dubljn, local priest, trustee order who own the school, awaiting details of the board of management (which they don't share on there site) and parents council!

My child has the god given right to attend school and offering places to non local children is reducoulas! If anyone has gotton anywhere or facing the same issue please contact me!

Moonbeam wrote: »

Offering places to the kids of past pupils before local kids is stupid.
Hopefully you get an offer before September.
If they stick rigidly to their enrolment policy there is little that can be done.
Are there any other local schools?
I thought they had to inform you that section 29 was open to you when they inform you that you do not get a place? we were informed anyway.
I am still waiting for a place for my eldest in our local school since Sept,I have a 20km round trip with her every day and she is soon to be the eldest of 4 so as you can imagine it is hell but the school she is in is wonderful and has really good teachers and staff.

I find it absolutely appalling, that parents have to endure this hardship with an eldest child! There should be a selection of places reserved for new family's and too be honest I don't believe just being a sibling should be an entire first criteria.

I am so angry I can't even out it into words I feel like I'm letting my son down, that I might have to send him to a school I don't feel is a standard he deserves, that i have to get him picked up by strangers and the school I have pointed to for the past two years that he has always know as the "big" school that he is going to go to, he won't!

I have been in such a horrible mood due to this, I feel so let down yet again by the systems applied in Ireland! This school I can't get into because locality is too far down the list the other schools I can't get Into because it's too far up there lists! Where is the consistency!

G-Man wrote: »

Hi,
Our daughter is eldest too and often thought that she would be discrimated against.. Its not my daughters fault she is the eldest and has no sibling to latch on to... And it seems many in the legal profession agree with these sort of discriminations.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tipperary-school-wins-appeal-in-traveller-discrimination-case-514143.html

Do you notice how the judge agreed the parental rule was discriminatory, but he felt the school had made a fair reason to being discriminatory. Is it ever fair to be discriminatory. Even a lay person could examine and see if the schools discrimination is reasonable... Is it even possible to have fair discrimination?

So IMHO there are two grounds of discrimination here one the child not having the right older sibling, and not having the right parent. This discrimination is wrong, it just so happens that in Ireland we can peculiarly say this discrimination is fair when we need to protect someone elses position i.e. the kids who have the older siblings or the parent who happens to have gone to this school..

I would call bunkum on these two "protections". Ireland has so many single sex and other diverse schools that the sibling rule is an anachronism (although we do understand its desirability), the parent rule is just old fashioned paternalism in protecting some sort of local favouritism of a school, if it is that .. Its just strange.


Even if you won your argument whats the alternative, lottery? Or maybe some sort of reverse pay internships to get in under rule 3.

I hope I win, and even when I do I am not giving up on fighting this issue, it's seems that so many people are affected by it and its so un just and so unfair. I have always considered myself to be relatively intelligent, but assumed as a young teenager and adult that government and like minded bodies must be made up of geniuses, I'm actually appalled at how lazy, nepotistic, egotistical, historic and outdated that actually are! How the hell are these people in power?

This school has a brand new building, and yet still only 16 classrooms and now less outside space that is all tarmac'd! Sold the land but never made space for new classes? Crazy! And the first planning permission for the new building was applied for in 1978 like seriously!!! I am just baffled

sawdoubters wrote: »

will she be 4 when she goes to school she could wait until 5

a quick word with your local parish priest might do the trick



http://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=elementaryschools&find_loc=Cabinteely%2C+Co.+Dublin

My son turned 4 today actually so he will be 4 years and 9 months. He is exceptionally intelligent, not very sporty but intellectually very very advanced, and with speaking with his Montessori teacher she said it would be Cruel to keep him back to 2015 as he has done 2 years of Montessori and because of how developed he is!

I contacted the arch bishop last night, the priest associated with the school is next on my list when I find out who he is!

G-Man wrote: »

I am saddened for you and your sons predicament. It looks like we are OK for one of our 2 favourite schools for our eldest daughter in '14. If it was not I can imagine your disappointment at having to explain this and understand it to your son.

You are not letting your son down, a parent who puts such effort into their childs education is is doing amazing work not just for their son but for their community.

Keep plugging away, surely some of 58 offered and the 18 ahead of you in the list are on other schools as well. Many will fall away.

I dont know your experience of the principal, but she does not have an easy task either. I dont know if this is too late for you but may suit some other parents, is there anyway of getting involved in the school as fundraising or maybe you have a special skill in music, art, computers or whatever and be able to offer something , so that you are embedded in the school before entry year, (staff in point 3 may have a broad definition particularly as schools are stuck for skills). It might sound off the wall and a bit pushy, but that waiting list of 19 might not be ordered as strict as we think.



Your missives to PP and etc., might well be noted but they are probably in an area they do not want to get involved in, (same goes for dept or any official), so thats it they are noted, why should the system you know is broken now change. I would encourage you to understand to the principals side and see what she needs. ...

See this is where is get more frustrated I fundraised for there new school my sister (now only 14) was attending during there last years in the old building. I helped with school trips and sports days. Many if the teachers know me. And the principal herself does. My mother has been associated with the school over 16 years 10 of those the current principal was in place! My mother fosters and has had to have children added later in school year and I remember one time she went and the principal told her don't just think because you have one foster child in that all will get places don't take this school for granted, a total power trip and my mum left feeling like she had been out down, next day called and told she had a place for him! Her manner is appalling.

I called on oct 23rd to see what the status of places where .... Secretary to get back to me and heard noting.

25th received and email asking to confirm if I still wanted a place in September which I confirmed.

Left it over Christmas as I though places hadn't been announced, called on Thursday and in Friday I recieved this

Dear
Mr & Mrs

X is 19th on the cancellations list and has not received a place at our school. Are two junior infant classes are now full.

I hope you have placed his name with alternative schools.

Regards
Principal!

I wasn't contacted or told, and now have since found out that one parent was told she had a place in November another not told she didn't have a place until December!

She should never have made principal, has no training and is very very cruel to staff and children. Many a story I can share and yet nothing has ever been done about her, I was happy for my children to attend as she is due to retire.

seavill wrote: »

What do you propose the school do for you?

They had 58 places for over 200 applicants. Obviously there are going to be people extremely disappointed. I certainly don't mean to sound disrespectful but If you had got in someone else would have missed out but you certainly wouldn't have been complaining about the system then. I understand your disappointment but are you hoping if you kick up enough fuss they will give into you and you get a place over someone else or what is the end goal?

Would you rather a lottery system or what are you proposing. It has to be decided some how but it's certainly not the fault of the principal or teachers or PP that the government are inept and can't plan properly.

And for what it's worth you are much better off with a school with a decent reputation that has a decent principal with many years left as opposed to one that is so bad as you describe and could be replaced by someone that could be 100 times worse or 100 times more useless.

Well firstly I propose that some form if system in places go eliminate multiple school applications, which leads to very very hard allocation process because family's are applying to upwards to 8 schools, I applied to one! The local school beside my house that I attended and my family currently attend.

So what do I propose

1. A centralised system to eliminate multiple school applications - using a orefernce system.

2. A "fair" enrolment process - do you think its fair that a child that lives in Meath has got a place my my local school because his sister Attends and got. Place a few years ago (don't ask me how)or the staff children getting preference over my child, this school is ment to be my local amenity. I'm not looking to get him into and amazing school in want him in his local school, one I can walk to, my mother can walk to that I have a support network in the area should it be required.

3. Eldest children are completely discriminated against so I don't think a blanket criteria be applied there should be a pro rata placed on places offered.

How can I get my child into a school if my local is admitting non local above mine and other school are admitting on local basis and he misses out?

I also don't think there process have been followed fairly as there has been two children that I know have no been offered places that shouldn't ahead of my son,

I am also annoyed I have only been told now two months after other parents have been told.

So what I want to happen is that I get my son into the most appropriate local school and that may mean kicking up a lot of fuss but that is what I deserve to see that he is treated in a fair method, and that if in fact there is a genuine excess of children over resources in the area that the minister of educations responsibility is to ensure that is met, so they can evaluate how they can accommodate an additional class in the school!

Do you think I'm asking to much? Or that I'm expected to stand back and be governed by biased processes and nepotistic judgement. The fact that the principal has in the past "made allowance" for other children shows just how wrong the system is! Based on the criteria you can clearly see how the board of the school is composed staff, past pupils and current children parents!

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

Hang on a sec. First of all if over 200 people apply to a school for 58 places what in fairness do you expect a principal to do?
Plus you have just mentioned you feel the principal is on a power trip and 'cruel' to the children so why on earth would you want to send a child to a school where you greatly dislike the person running it.

Because she retires next year and won't have much to do with my children.

I "need" him to attend that school because that is the school my two foster brothers attend currently and he will be brought to school with my mother! I also want him in a catholic school, I also want him to progress with the children in his Montessori school, I want him to be in a class with children that live in his local area, the area I have worked hard to live in, I want him nearby to ensure he can be social with his friends from school.

The school has been over prescribed every single year YET built a brand new school building with the exact same number of school rooms ????? Logic?

So considering my son by law has the right to attend school this September where does he go?


Out of those 200 applicants many will not be from the area, also may not be catholic, may only have there name down as a back up, but yet even with my son satisfying all criteria "except" not haveing an older sibling in the school he is not offered a place. I believe certain people will be disappointed and if I applied for him in a school I loved and felt it was an excellent school but he didn't get a place I would be "disappointed" but if cope it was a preference but I'm not from that area so it's disappointment not anger!!!

This is anger, he deserves a place in that school, above past pupils children, above staff children and above non local siblings!

Purplemonke wrote: »

Well firstly I propose that some form if system in places go eliminate multiple school applications, which leads to very very hard allocation process because family's are applying to upwards to 8 schools, I applied to one! The local school beside my house that I attended and my family currently attend.

So what do I propose

1. A centralised system to eliminate multiple school applications - using a orefernce system.

2. A "fair" enrolment process - do you think its fair that a child that lives in Meath has got a place my my local school because his sister Attends and got. Place a few years ago (don't ask me how)or the staff children getting preference over my child, this school is ment to be my local amenity. I'm not looking to get him into and amazing school in want him in his local school, one I can walk to, my mother can walk to that I have a support network in the area should it be required.

3. Eldest children are completely discriminated against so I don't think a blanket criteria be applied there should be a pro rata placed on places offered.

How can I get my child into a school if my local is admitting non local above mine and other school are admitting on local basis and he misses out?

I also don't think there process have been followed fairly as there has been two children that I know have no been offered places that shouldn't ahead of my son,

I am also annoyed I have only been told now two months after other parents have been told.

So what I want to happen is that I get my son into the most appropriate local school and that may mean kicking up a lot of fuss but that is what I deserve to see that he is treated in a fair method, and that if in fact there is a genuine excess of children over resources in the area that the minister of educations responsibility is to ensure that is met, so they can evaluate how they can accommodate an additional class in the school!

Do you think I'm asking to much? Or that I'm expected to stand back and be governed by biased processes and nepotistic judgement. The fact that the principal has in the past "made allowance" for other children shows just how wrong the system is! Based on the criteria you can clearly see how the board of the school is composed staff, past pupils and current children parents!

Your problem is the system is already in place and has applied to you and the other 200 people in your school.

You can propose whatever you like but it is unlikely to change anything now. Recently there has been talk of changing admission policies and I think there is something in line for this but again it won't have any effect on your situation.

You say in your OP you are not considered a past pupil despite all your connections to the school. It seems that you were not a past pupil of the primary school so this seems fair.
It appear that the school were able to fulfill the criteria of selection based on the first 3 points on your list on your OP. If they apply the rules strictly I can't see how you can have a problem.
If they were to bend the rules for someone surely this would be worse than applying them strictly.
You applied knowing there would be a selection procedure. These procedures have been in place in all primary schools for the last 10 years or so that I am aware of so you signed up to this school knowing there would be a selection process even if you did not know exactly what it would entail.
If you did not know the ins and outs of the process then you failed yourslef by not looking into this.
If you had asked for the enrolement policy anytime over the last 4 years you would have seen the cirteria and known straight away you don't fulfill any of the first 3 so things were always going to be tight. About 2 years ago there was a massive incident around enrolement policies all over the papers and TV. Again this should have put it back in your mind.

Saying all that hindsight is a great thing and I do sympathise that this school would be ideal for you however you did not fulfull the selecting criteria to get into the 50 or so places. Yes its bad planning etc. do you think the department, the principal, the PP don't know the school is oversubscribed, this is most likely the case every year. This is the case in numerous schools around the country not just yours.

In a perfect world people woudl only apply for one school and it would make life easier but this isnt currently the case so in essence you should have done the wrong thing and put his name down in several schools, your main problem is that you presumed that you would get into this one and now you are stuck. Unfortunately you are not the only one in this situation and please God it gets sorted for you but blaming everyone left right and centre won't help anything.

As a backup plan its time to start looking into alternative solutions and how you would work around these. Again you won't be the only one that it will be awkward for but in the end of the day we don't always get what we want or deserve. Hopefully there will be a large list of cancellations and you might be lucky but for now I think you need to look at different options

Purplemonke wrote: »

Well this is where I see thing differently, I spoke with the principal two years ago when I had started him in the Montessori and I was collecting the other boys from school, I mentioned to her that I had his name down etc etc the policy that is now in place is new and implemented in the last two years (I'm waiting to find out when).

I find it wrong that local schools are not prioritising local children.

Even if I had placed his name down in the other 5 local schools as I said in an earlier post he would not have recieved a place as there criteria is too prioritise there local area which we fall outside.

So back to my dilemma, a school not catering for its locality, now it may trans pirer than many offered places may infact be one of the many that have filled multiple school applications, and due to my sons birthday being janruary if they happen to be older they would be prioritised! So I hope he will manage to get a place in one of the local schools!

However this is a problem, this is an issue facing many and in this one school 150 children did not recieve places I don't know the break down of local versus not or past pupil or staff children or whatever, but the fact is that if each school has a different criteria, it's "own" method of selecting children, that is not monitored or regulated and favors are being applied (which I know are) in all schools, them how can people forward plan!? Local schools should be for local children. End off.

So I will be fighting not just for my son but for every child and family that will be placed in this position, I assume from your replays you haven't hit this issue, and most likly either avoided it of don't have children, either way I hope you never have to.

I will try to get this issue highlighted, that is what I hope to achieve

What was the policy in place when you put your childs name down 4 years ago?

What counts as local children? Someone that moved next to the school 6 months ago, are they local? someone that lives 10 mins drive away but are part of the parish for 20 years are they local? What then about the person that moves to the area for work or whatever reason how do they fit into your difinition of being local, are they excluded because they only moved here even though they may be more "local" than the person 10 mins away.

You may not have received a place if they were over quota in the other 5 schools but what if this is teh only school over quota? if they other 4 were not over quota then you would have received a place and would not be without any school?

Look in the end of the day everyone knows there is an enrolement policy. You were not bothered about how right or wrong it was until it didn't suit you now that it doesn't theres a problem. If you really thought it was that wrong you would have made it your business to know what it was before now and would have been fighting for it to be changed for the last 2 years. If you have 2 foster brothers in the school you have access to all the school policies.

If a school is built for 200 students and 2 housing estates are built next door to it adding another 100 students to the "local" pot, how are these "locals" to be accommodated? With all due respect you are taking a very simplistic view of it in your posts

While there are no easy solutions, why should this child be discriminated against because they did not have an elder sibling who attended the school or a parent.. That bit seems unfair, it might seem reasonable to some, but to a kid and there parent who want there kid to get the best chance it looks like a school is putting up barriers to access and that is why I understand the problem, I dont think there are easy solutions.

Listen I believe the minister is about to strike down the whole interviewing the kid or the parents to see if they can speak irish.. Again this seems reasonable to some but then why do Gaelscoils get to discriminate against some kid who might have a wholehearted desire to speak Irish but just does not have the support of family to demonstrate it. SHOULD NON GAELSCOILS GET TO discrimate against kids who come from households with none of of our national languages and perhaps no desire or even a dislike of them and our culture in ireland.... you can imagine where that would end up, but when Gaelscoils do it its seen as OK? I actually like GaelScoils .

See these above are just examples of arbitrary discriminations that sometimes damage a pupils prospect.... There does need to be a rethink here, maybe we need some sort of "Freakenomics" study to look at possible alternatives....Like heres one, howabout parents are entitled to free education for their children, but must bid for a place in the school of choice for their firstborn for the first year and after that its all free.... Thats right auction off the places.

Well that looks shocking doesnt it, but the fact is we already do that, by having local admission policies, we are auctioning of school places but the money goes to local auctioneers and into house prices.. Why not let schools get a piece of this action to fund education of all kids.

Local admission preferences (and perhaps all these other methods) are subject to abuse, they just prefer families who can afford to buy homes or even second homes near certain schools and make those homes unavailable to families who really really do have a local connection e.g. grandparents, cultural, work etc.

G-Man wrote: »

Listen I believe the minister is about to strike down the whole interviewing the kid or the parents to see if they can speak irish.. Again this seems reasonable to some but then why do Gaelscoils get to discriminate against some kid who might have a wholehearted desire to speak Irish but just does not have the support of family to demonstrate it. SHOULD NON GAELSCOILS GET TO discrimate against kids who come from households with none of of our national languages and perhaps no desire or even a dislike of them and our culture in ireland.... you can imagine where that would end up, but when Gaelscoils do it its seen as OK? I actually like GaelScoils but both location (wierd medieval parish boundary quirk) and poor language ability - currently and not having an elder sibling all count against us, so our local gaelscoil is out.

My local Gaelscoil is great. They know 95% of the parents have no Irish and don't care, quite a few are.

I must correct myself and be sorry for misleading. I never went through with the application process for the Gaelscoil but had got the rundown from a teacher in the school. So maybe if I did go through with it, I might have found it as flexible and understanding as others have found out in their experience.

I have just thought of another freakomics entry criteria. Say the school states that the parents must bring their P60 and demonstrate the household is earning over a certain threshold.... we dont actually charge fees but we would like you to demonstrate that your household is suitably funded.

That again is a criteria that might sound offensive so stated, but thats what fee schools in effect do by charging high fees and therefore rule out kids from certain backgrounds attending the school.. Its not about the money they might say while folks its actually all about THE MONEY!

You never no a place might come available in the educate together school near me my daughter was 33 on the list and there was suppose to be two junior infant classes. 3 years later i ring up to be told she's 79 on the list and their will only be 1 junior infant class. She got bumped down by siblings coming first.

Then today she got accepted into the gaelscoil in maynooth which is great but it is 15 minutes out of way roughly. But the local school near us doesn't issue acceptance letters till March so I will have to accept maynooth just in case.