If you knew your neighbour was a dole cheat would you report him/her

B.A._Baracus · 15-01-2014 05:00PM

I wouldn't report.
I know a lad who works the odd time while on the dole. Here and there type of work when he can get it. He is right. Life isnt fair. Its dog eat dog. I wish it wasnt but it is.

Ray Palmer · 15-01-2014 05:16PM

HardLuckWoman wrote: »

Its all about control with my mother. She stopped myself and my sister getting on in life. Never allowed us swimming lessons as kids, and jealous when we studied, she would come in and throw our books all over the place. Money was the same, god help it if we end up with more money than she ever did. And money made her happy. Her boys getting 600+ a week, herself getting 400 a week, and myself and my sister getting 350 a week. Right there at the bottom where 'silly bitches' belong.
.

I am sorry to hear that but parents are people too and can have their own baggage. I actually read something about the very subject recently. Chances are you are right she is jealous. You are now an adult and she feels you are competition. I would hazard a guess she has said stuff about other people having money and doing better than her many times.
It isn't so much about you and your sister but her and insecurities she has. Having a large family curtails many opportunities for her so she could feel hard done by and resentful.
The older I get the more I see people question their parents morals on subjects. Just because they are parents doesn't mean they are right which is something they have to learn once you are an adult. The old belief of mother knows best has long been gone.

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 05:27PM

Specialun wrote: »

How do you know clerical errors make up the bulk or do you feel to make up cr@p to suit your arguement. You claimed very little is taken from fraud..I showed you figures that could potentially mean your wrong

I have to agree with this, it seems like he's arguing just for the sake of it and without any real supporting information

@darkpagandeath the 19.5bn expected spend is based on last years figures + or - a small percentage depending on what way they think the jobs market will go, how many people will die of old age and how many people will be eligable for OAP etc.

it might be forecasted spend but will be a very well informed and educated guess.

I also never suggested that my income tax is 100% deposited into the social welfare pot, thats just your interpretation of my post and it seems like you're the only one who's interpretated that way.

steddyeddy · 15-01-2014 05:32PM

I have encountered many teenagers who ran away from a violent or unsafe home and relied on welfare to survive. A lot of these people Couldn't find landlords who took rent allowance and so had to pay Dublin rents on 188 a week. Some of them had to move address quite quickly and were reported to the dole office for an address different to the claiming address and were cut of. Their new landlord didn't allow letters to the house because he wasn't tax compliant so they had no proof of address.

That might seem like the minority example but a lot of people on welfare are extremely desperate. You don't know their situation so reporting them would be a pretty scummy thing to do. True the welfare system is a trap but do you really think the biggest tax evaders are recipients of social welfare?

darkpagandeath · 15-01-2014 05:32PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

You can't differentiate where specific tax taken goes, it doesn't' work like that. The government don't sit down and go right lads were gonna put income tax into health and were gonna put VAT into social welfare, it just doesn't work like that and that would be a really daft way to to it. It all goes into a pot and is distributed as needed.

Over 30% of the budget goes on social welfare therefore I can claim that over 30% of my tax taken goes on social welfare, since it goes into a generic pot that pays out over 30% of it's contents for social welfare.

You wouldn't do up a household budget like that, you wouldn't work on monday and say right todays wages are gonna go on rent and tomorrows are gonna go on bills. Since you get payed a lump sum at the end of the week/month it would be much more appropriate to say x% is gonna go on rent and y% is gonna go on bills.

I never said they should put any extra money into catch those people screwing the system. The theme of the thread is should you report people who cheat the system. Your view seems to be no because people cheating the state don't cost us that much money (correct me if I'm wrong). That logic is flawed because you have no idea how much money it costs the state and as demonstrated above relatively small numbers can cost a fairly significant amount of money.

I don't think anyone is claiming that pretty much everyone is scamming the system.

I understand the tax system well enough thanks I was merely pointing out to these people in the thread shouting "My tax this, My tax that". Chanting like it was there personal wages funding this and not a fund.... There has been a link posted a few times to a website cant remember the name that deals with breaking down your tax to were it actually goes.

And I have never said not to go after these people defrauding the state. I merely pointed out that it’s hugely exaggerated and a myth that huge numbers are defrauding. What is not a myth is the rampant wastage in the system I would be allot happier they deal with fixing the holes first than chasing after a tiny minority of people. Once the holes are fixed by all means go after them.

Sala · 15-01-2014 05:37PM

Yes, it's theft.

darkpagandeath · 15-01-2014 05:43PM

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/over-40-state-coffers-spent-2045441

Interesting read...

30% is Oap

and it cost 60 million just to pay the money out...

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 05:43PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I understand the tax system well enough thanks I was merely pointing out to these people in the thread shouting "My tax this, My tax that". Chanting like it was there personal wages funding this and not a fund.... There has been a link posted a few times to a website cant remember the name that deals with breaking down your tax to were it actually goes.

And I have never said not to go after these people defrauding the state. I merely pointed out that it’s hugely exaggerated and a myth that huge numbers are defrauding. What is not a myth is the rampant wastage in the system I would be allot happier they deal with fixing the holes first than chasing after a tiny minority of people. Once the holes are fixed by all means go after them.

you've also said you wouldn't rat on anyone, this is how it starts. lets say that between 5-10% of claiments are defrauding the system. its not a significant amount but its something that shouldnt be happening at all.

Im not going to continue arguing with you mind you because i really think you're arguing for the sake of it.

Valetta · 15-01-2014 05:44PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I would be allot happier they deal with fixing the holes first than chasing after a tiny minority of people. Once the holes are fixed by all means go after them.

It's not either or.

They should do both.

However, this thread is about "dole cheats" so overspending or misspending by government departments is irrelevant to the subject at hand. It has no bearing on the rights or wrongs of social welfare fraud.

rubadub · 15-01-2014 05:47PM

Walkin Talkin Stephen Hawkin wrote: »

No chance.

Snitches get stitches.

would you ever snitch on anybody? like report a burglary in your house in the hope they might catch them?

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Not the government you are fupping. It's honest, hardworking people.

+1

anncoates wrote: »

I think if you want to rat on them, they should let them know who did it.

Why is this? are there any other crimes where you think the people reporting or aiding the investigation should be disclosed to the criminal, like if somebody identified a bank robber in a line up. Its quite an odd idea to disclose the person reporting the crime, when usually they go out of their way to protect them, like having darkened rooms for line ups or 2 way mirrors.

darkpagandeath · 15-01-2014 05:55PM

matt-dublin wrote: »

you've also said you wouldn't rat on anyone, this is how it starts. lets say that between 5-10% of claiments are defrauding the system. its not a significant amount but its something that shouldnt be happening at all.

Im not going to continue arguing with you mind you because i really think you're arguing for the sake of it.

Link the post were I said that ?

I thought this was a discussion board I'm not arguing I'm disagreeing.

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 06:03PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Link the post were I said that ?

I thought this was a discussion board I'm not arguing I'm disagreeing.

apologies, i mistook someone elses post for your own.

Frank Black · 15-01-2014 06:07PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's nice picking figures out of the air to make an argument look valid

1. That's projected

2. As you well know there is more tax taken than simply income tax

lets play a game ...

Do the same with the health budget. As your not saying people don't deserve to be treated if they get ill ?

WTF are you talking about?
The only thing I'm 'saying', is that your statement that a only tiny amount of income tax goes on SW is quite patently bollox.
Is that clear enough for you?

Ray Palmer · 15-01-2014 06:15PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have encountered many teenagers who ran away from a violent or unsafe home and relied on welfare to survive. A lot of these people Couldn't find landlords who took rent allowance and so had to pay Dublin rents on 188 a week. Some of them had to move address quite quickly and were reported to the dole office for an address different to the claiming address and were cut of. Their new landlord didn't allow letters to the house because he wasn't tax compliant so they had no proof of address.

That might seem like the minority example but a lot of people on welfare are extremely desperate. You don't know their situation so reporting them would be a pretty scummy thing to do. True the welfare system is a trap but do you really think the biggest tax evaders are recipients of social welfare?

This is incredibly dubious. One you can get the dole while not having a fixed address. Teenagers under 18 have a special treatment available to them. Other teens (18+19) can be treated as other homeless people. I have never heard of a LL insisting on no mail and find that to be unreliable to say the least.
It also is not anywhere close to what is being discussed as who is going to report a teenager as a dole cheat if they aren't even living somewhere or keeping a hidden existence in a property.
This is just a minority case it isn't a case of cheating social welfare.

The belief from the tax office is the biggest number of tax cheats are tradesmen who often claim the dole also.

There is system in place that does means tests and calculated what you are entitled to based you contributions. If anybody is cheating the system they are doing it for a lifestyle choice not to just get by.

WilyCoyote · 15-01-2014 06:15PM

No, I wouldn't ............

cause I often have to borrow a few hundred off him to fix my car/go away for a few days etc. It's only when he refuses that I then threaten him with reporting.

Cienciano · 15-01-2014 06:19PM

Funny that people think that "snitching" is wrong. Watching too many mafia movies I think. It's perfectly ok in lots of situations
There's a level that I wouldn't report it. A low to medium level, someone doing the odd cash in hand job, someone doing the odd days work.
But there's the people that milk it are living a life so comfortable that they wouldn't dream of getting a job (or a "real" job). You're paying their income directly.
Fúck them, they deserve to be "ratted out".

steddyeddy · 15-01-2014 06:26PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This is incredibly dubious. One you can get the dole while not having a fixed address. Teenagers under 18 have a special treatment available to them. Other teens (18+19) can be treated as other homeless people. I have never heard of a LL insisting on no mail and find that to be unreliable to say the least.
It also is not anywhere close to what is being discussed as who is going to report a teenager as a dole cheat if they aren't even living somewhere or keeping a hidden existence in a property.
This is just a minority case it isn't a case of cheating social welfare.

The belief from the tax office is the biggest number of tax cheats are tradesmen who often claim the dole also.

There is system in place that does means tests and calculated what you are entitled to based you contributions. If anybody is cheating the system they are doing it for a lifestyle choice not to just get by.

Well I'm afraid it's true about the landlord and he still refuses mail. He includes it as part of the lease.

On your first point the teenagers got the dole while living at a fixed address eg their family home. While things at the home got bad they had to leave quickly. They were desperate and signed up to the house were they weren't allowed to declare it as their address.

You would do well to talk to the ISPCC or the victims themselves if you find their claim unbelievable.

Tiddlypeeps · 15-01-2014 06:38PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I'm afraid it's true about the landlord and he still refuses mail. He includes it as part of the lease.

On your first point the teenagers got the dole while living at a fixed address eg their family home. While things at the home got bad they had to leave quickly. They were desperate and signed up to the house were they weren't allowed to declare it as their address.

You would do well to talk to the ISPCC or the victims themselves if you find their claim unbelievable.

I also find that a little bit unbelievable, I'm not saying it's not true but I can't make any sense of it.

Why would a teenager move into a rental place that won't allow post when there are so many places out there that will?

Why would a landlord not accept post? Having letters for random people turn up at your door isn't an indication that the house is being rented (I've lived in places that regularly received post for people who have never even lived there) and even if it was an post don't consult with revenue about what houses are getting what post. Why would a landlord limit his potential tenants like that for absolutely no gain?

Then there is the fact the landlord has no way of stopping someone using the house as a postal address and no way of telling if they are, unless it's an apartment with a locked post box.

Again I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it just makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

steddyeddy · 15-01-2014 06:44PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I also find that a little bit unbelievable, I'm not saying it's not true but I can't make any sense of it.

Why would a teenager move into a rental place that won't allow post when there are so many places out there that will?

Why would a landlord not accept post? Having letters for random people turn up at your door isn't an indication that the house is being rented (I've lived in places that regularly received post for people who have never even lived there) and even if it was an post don't consult with revenue about what houses are getting what post. Why would a landlord limit his potential tenants like that for absolutely no gain?

Then there is the fact the landlord has no way of stopping someone using the house as a postal address and no way of telling if they are, unless it's an apartment with a locked post box.

Again I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it just makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

I have worked with people from troubled situations in a volunteer capacity so I won't sit here defending them. People in violent situations move into the first place they can find out of desperation. It's that simple.

One the second point you will have to ask the landlord. He didn't want tenants registered with social welfare, ptrb or any government agency.

old hippy · 15-01-2014 07:46PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Funny that people think that "snitching" is wrong. Watching too many mafia movies I think. It's perfectly ok in lots of situations
There's a level that I wouldn't report it. A low to medium level, someone doing the odd cash in hand job, someone doing the odd days work.
But there's the people that milk it are living a life so comfortable that they wouldn't dream of getting a job (or a "real" job). You're paying their income directly.
Fúck them, they deserve to be "ratted out".

It doesn't come from watching mafia movies. There's a history of opposition to informing in Ireland.

rubadub · 15-01-2014 07:58PM

old hippy wrote: »

It doesn't come from watching mafia movies.

I would say it still does for many though.

http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/statistics_cri_victim.html

In 2006, the Garda Public Attitudes Survey found that of those who have been victims of crime, 14% did not report the most recent crime to the Gardaí.

Not sure how that compares to other countries, but doesn't seem too high to me.

sparksfly · 15-01-2014 08:24PM

[QUOTESo 100% of the tax take goes directly to social welfare now ?[/QUOTE]

I don't give a crap how much goes directly to social welfare, taxpayers fund these social welfare parasites.

These same dole cheats are not happy enough sponging off the taxpayer but want to undercut legitimate businesses as well.

No mercy.

Cienciano · 15-01-2014 08:34PM

old hippy wrote: »

It doesn't come from watching mafia movies. There's a history of opposition to informing in Ireland.

Probably why priest got away with raping children for so long

old hippy · 15-01-2014 08:46PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Probably why priest got away with raping children for so long

That was more to do with a vast cover up. Not sure what paedophile priests have to do with the topic, mind.

Unless you're equating people on the dole in tough circumstances to paedophiles?

B.A._Baracus · 15-01-2014 09:09PM

Reality of life:

"Yes. Yes I would report someone! Its illegal and immoral. Now excuse me while I download the entire Breaking Bad series off kickass torrents"

Cienciano · 15-01-2014 09:33PM

old hippy wrote: »

That was more to do with a vast cover up. Not sure what paedophile priests have to do with the topic, mind.

Unless you're equating people on the dole in tough circumstances to paedophiles?

You know exactly what I mean

steddyeddy · 15-01-2014 09:57PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Probably why priest got away with raping children for so long

Actually you can blame the gaurds on that. Lots of public reported priests in this country.

Eight Ball · 15-01-2014 10:43PM

Valetta wrote: »

It's not being a busy body.

As has been said before in the thread, it's no different to reporting a crime witnessed on the street: say a mugging or someone shoplifting.

:pac:

Femme_Fatale · 15-01-2014 10:51PM

People wouldn't report it because it's not their business and also it could come back to bite them on the arse if the person they report is bad news.
It's not just not wanting to be a rat due to watching mafia movies.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

What is funny about the people who say "no" is they are actually the people likely to report their friends and family if they fall out.

We are?

matt-dublin wrote: »

so if your neighbour was collecting full time employment under the table in cash, plus collecting housing allowance, the dole and other benefits potentially bringing in upwards of 60-70k a year by scamming the system you would sit idly by and let it happen???

You might as well just walk over to them and give them €50 a week out of your pocket by hand!

More like one cent. An individual getting dole in addition to cash-in-hand is not costing another individual €50 a week.

suicide_circus wrote: »

You are certainly complicit in the theft if you dont report it.

No you're not.

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 11:33PM

If you base jobseekers welfare budget/population it works out at about €12 per man, woman and child in the country per week.

(3bn/4.5m based on 2012 figures/census)

Just a simple way of working it, but if you subtract OAPs and children I'm sure it would at least double.

That's my fun manipulated statistic for the day

If you knew your neighbour was a dole cheat would you report him/her

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