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Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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Comments

  • #542
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You don't take it as fact that genealogists find errors in the census returns?

    You believe that those who are here illegally fill out the census?

    Really?

    where is here ?


  • #543
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    weisses wrote: »
    where is here ?

    Where could 'here' possibly refer to when used on an Irish forum by a poster whose location is stated as Cork?

    But in the case of illegals - anywhere can be here when it comes to filling out census returns.

    Now, how about you answer the question instead of deflecting.


  • #544
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    weisses wrote: »
    That's the point ... You can believe the census is wrong, you can have an opinion on other figures from the census but as long no one is actually showing some evidence that support your hypothesis we have to go with the census figures

    We all know atheists opposed the 2011 census even before it was held.

    So I'm not ignoring the points raised, I just don't take as fact the believes/opinions and here-say applied to the validity of the census figures

    There are figures given in my last post for why the census figures are flawed (for the purposes yourself and BB are trying to use them). They are not beliefs/opinions or hearsay, they are figures taken from other surveys asking questions in a slightly different way than the census which, given the bias in the source (Iona institute), are only going to exaggerate in your favour. You need to discuss the 30% figure and try explain why its not relevant, you can't just dismiss it out of hand.


  • #545
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Where could 'here' possibly refer to when used on an Irish forum by a poster whose location is stated as Cork?

    Haven't got a clou what you are on about
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    But in the case of illegals - anywhere can be here when it comes to filling out census returns..

    So where is the evidence? (could have missed it in the 36 pages ?)
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Now, how about you answer the question instead of deflecting.

    Jump of the horse demanding answers buddy

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88382024&postcount=351

    Focus on your own inabilities first


  • #546
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    weisses wrote: »
    where is here ?

    Republic of Ireland,
    British Isles,
    Western Europe,
    Planet Earth,
    Solar System,
    Orion-Cygus Arm,
    Milky Way,
    Local Group,
    Virgo Supercluster,
    Known Universe.


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  • #547
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Jernal wrote: »
    Republic of Ireland,
    British Isles,
    Western Europe,
    Planet Earth,
    Solar System,
    Orion-Cygus Arm,
    Milky Way,
    Local Group,
    Virgo Supercluster,
    Known Universe.

    Did people from there fill out the census ?

    I asked where is here because i thought " here " is this thread

    Simple question ..no need to for such a smart arse reply really


  • #548
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    There are figures given in my last post for why the census figures are flawed (for the purposes yourself and BB are trying to use them). They are not beliefs/opinions or hearsay, they are figures taken from other surveys asking questions in a slightly different way than the census which, given the bias in the source (Iona institute), are only going to exaggerate in your favour. You need to discuss the 30% figure and try explain why its not relevant, you can't just dismiss it out of hand.

    OP was about Christians not Catholics per se ... your link deals with catholics only.


  • #549
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,179 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    weisses wrote: »
    Did people from there fill out the census ?

    I asked where is here because i thought " here " is this thread

    Simple question ..no need to for such a smart arse reply really

    if people from the Republic of Ireland didn't fill out the census, then who did? :confused::confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #550
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    weisses wrote: »
    Haven't got a clou what you are on about



    So where is the evidence? (could have missed it in the 36 pages ?)



    Jump of the horse demanding answers buddy

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88382024&postcount=351

    Focus on your own inabilities first



    Perhaps you should read the whole thread and you will indeed find posters who have stated the census is exact. Buddy.

    You were asked a question. You responded with a question. That is called deflection. Buddy.


  • #551
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    SW wrote: »
    if people from the Republic of Ireland didn't fill out the census, then who did? :confused::confused:
    You believe that those who are here illegally fill out the census?

    I never said or implied or talked about what was quoted above ..

    The only thing i implied is that the census is correct (ish) always room for errors (as in polls)


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  • #552
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Perhaps you should read the whole thread and you will indeed find posters who have stated the census is exact. Buddy.

    You were asked a question. You responded with a question. That is called deflection. Buddy.

    At least i did respond .

    And i responded with a question because i did not and still don't understand part of your question because you implied things i never said ..... Buddy

    I did read the relevant parts dealing with the OP didn't care to much about the OT waffle and ramblings no


  • #553
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    weisses wrote: »
    I never said or implied or talked about what was quoted above ..

    The only thing i implied is that the census is correct (ish) always room for errors (as in polls)

    Correct (ish) is not the same as correct.

    In the case we are discussing the issue is that when it comes to the accuracy of the returns on the question re: religion it is not so much a case as 'room' for error as a whole house of error.

    The simple fact that the return is filled out by one individual on behalf of each individual in the house leaves it wide open to error.

    If my father were filling out the census and I were a member of his household he would tick 'Catholic' for me on the grounds that I was baptised. Ironic, as I am one of the few who managed to successfully defect, the RCC no longer considers me a Catholic and I have the documents to prove it.


  • #554
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    weisses wrote: »
    OP was about Christians not Catholics per se ... your link deals with catholics only.

    There are 3.8 million catholics out of about 4.1 million christians (>92%) in Ireland according to the census, so you will have do a lot better than that to dismiss the figures I referenced. Besides, my link also gives church attendance in 2009 for christians in general as 46% (44-45.2% for catholics in the same period), so still a massive difference.


  • #555
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    weisses wrote: »
    At least i did respond .

    And i responded with a question because i did not and still don't understand part of your question because you implied things i never said ..... Buddy

    I did read the relevant parts dealing with the OP didn't care to much about the OT waffle and ramblings no

    I see your passive aggressive buddy and raise you a my friend.


    No. I asked you a direct question. You deflected.

    I implied nothing.

    I shan't bother responding to you any more since by your own admission you dismissed most of the thread as waffle.


  • #556
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    weisses wrote: »
    I never said or implied or talked about what was quoted above ..

    The only thing i implied is that the census is correct (ish) always room for errors (as in polls)

    As I said in my first post to you, the issue is in what the census is correct(ish) about. It only tells us what people self-identify as, not what they believe or even what religious obligations they follow or fulfil. If you engaged with posts instead of constant deflection, then we wouldn't have gone in one big circle.


  • #557
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Correct (ish) is not the same as correct.

    In the case we are discussing the issue is that when it comes to the accuracy of the returns on the question re: religion it is not so much a case as 'room' for error as a whole house of error.

    The simple fact that the return is filled out by one individual on behalf of each individual in the house leaves it wide open to error.

    If my father were filling out the census and I were a member of his household he would tick 'Catholic' for me on the grounds that I was baptised. Ironic, as I am one of the few who managed to successfully defect, the RCC no longer considers me a Catholic and I have the documents to prove it.

    Same could go for one person in the family ticking the "no religion" box when there are indeed religious people in the household ...

    And the census will never be 100% accurate .... same goes for polls ... using that as a stick against the census is hilarious.

    I get what you and others are saying though .... Is there a figure/report that addresses these points/concerns


  • #558
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    As I said in my first post to you, the issue is in what the census is correct(ish) about. It only tells us what people self-identify as, not what they believe or even what religious obligations they follow or fulfil. If you engaged with posts instead of constant deflection, then we wouldn't have gone in one big circle.

    Sorry but that's your opinion (and probably widely shared on this forum)

    Claiming the census got it wrong based on opinion and inaccurate polls is not the way to go i think


  • #559
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    Fine. Have a grand old time discussing it over at the "exactly what percentage of the population is "theist"?" thread with everyone already over there.
    No thanks, I'm happy exposing your weird obsessions here thanks.


  • #560
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    weisses wrote: »
    Sorry but that's your opinion (and probably widely shared on this forum)

    Claiming the census got it wrong based on opinion and inaccurate polls is not the way to go i think

    That's not my opinion, it is fact. 84.2% of people in Ireland call themselves Catholic according to the census, but only 30% of catholics attend church weekly (which catholics are obliged to do) according to an Iona Institute poll (so if the 30% figure is inaccurate, then it can only be too high, given the source). Couple this with all the polls and statistics showing the support in this country for abortion (39% support for abortion by choice, 89% when the womans life is at risk), gay marriage (~75% support) and even contraceptive use (>60% use of modern methods), we can clearly see that the census is very limited in what it tells us about what religion people actually are.

    This is not opinion, and you need far more than your own opinion to dismiss it.


  • #561
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    That's not my opinion, it is fact. 84.2% of people in Ireland call themselves Catholic according to the census, but only 30% of catholics attend church weekly (which catholics are obliged to do) according to an Iona Institute poll (so if the 30% figure is inaccurate, then it can only be too high, given the source). Couple this with all the polls and statistics showing the support in this country for abortion (39% support for abortion by choice, 89% when the womans life is at risk), gay marriage (~75% support) and even contraceptive use (>60% use of modern methods), we can clearly see that the census is very limited in what it tells us about what religion people actually are.

    This is not opinion, and you need far more than your own opinion to dismiss it.

    Okay picked out one

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Public_opinion

    1000 people asked

    How many where Catholic or of other religion ?


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  • #562
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    @Brown Bomber: You are back again, so any response to this post?

    Lost my post 3 times now so excuse me for being brief.

    1. Belief and ritual are independent of each other.
    2. The Cathecism is a guide.
    3. Point 2 of yours is you moving the goalposts. Please see this post to remind yourself what we were discussing.
      Originally Posted by Brown Bomber viewpost.gif
      It has nothing to do with perspective. I mentioned the word "facts" in the post you quoted. Which of the following isn't a fact?

      1. Ireland is officially 90% Catholic.
      2. Every dictionary will tell you that Christmas is a Christian festival which celebrates the birth of Jesus.
    4. The dictionary references you provided proved my point, like I said.
    5. Christmas is not celebrated by many different types of people for many reasons. Get many Christmas cards from the Israeli settlements or Mecca this year? It is celebrated by people in what are traditionally Christian lands.
    6. I'm done talking about Christmas.


  • #563
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    weisses wrote: »
    Okay picked out one

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Public_opinion

    1000 people asked

    How many where Catholic or of other religion ?

    The 1000 were picked at random from all constituencies, so the distribution of religions amongst them would be similar to the distribution of religions amongst the entire country as reported by the census.
    Why just pick one poll though? All the polls referenced on that page randomly picked people across the country since 1997 (the earliest poll referenced) and they all showed support for some level of abortion significantly higher than 15.8% (100-84.2%).


  • #564
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Lost my post 3 times now so excuse me for being brief.

    1. Belief and ritual are independent of each other.
    2. The Cathecism is a guide.
    3. Point 2 of yours is you moving the goalposts. Please see this post to remind yourself what we were discussing.
    4. The dictionary references you provided proved my point, like I said.
    5. Christmas is not celebrated by many different types of people for many reasons. Get many Christmas cards from the Israeli settlements or Mecca this year? It is celebrated by people in what are traditionally Christian lands.
    6. I'm done talking about Christmas.

    http://api.ning.com/files/bmbhJPSwkY6keYi664vsIMOFC2gkrAA9iaoX6ihM3rL4bCPnU29QUMDpmJVRGrzWSOZ*M*cQLadOoTJ77gwziEcd4kct9v3j/merrymayor.jpg


  • #565
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    The 1000 were picked at random from all constituencies, so the distribution of religions amongst them would be similar to the distribution of religions amongst the entire country as reported by the census.
    Why just pick one poll though? All the polls referenced on that page randomly picked people across the country since 1997 (the earliest poll referenced) and they all showed support for some level of abortion significantly higher than 15.8% (100-84.2%).

    See that is something you assume

    It would be better if they would have asked what religion people where and posted that as well


  • #566
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Lost my post 3 times now so excuse me for being brief.

    1. Belief and ritual are independent of each other.
    2. The Cathecism is a guide.
    3. Point 2 of yours is you moving the goalposts. Please see this post to remind yourself what we were discussing.
    4. The dictionary references you provided proved my point, like I said.
    5. Christmas is not celebrated by many different types of people for many reasons. Get many Christmas cards from the Israeli settlements or Mecca this year? It is celebrated by people in what are traditionally Christian lands.
    6. I'm done talking about Christmas.

    1. Belief and ritual are one and the same when the belief includes the belief that the ritual is obligatory.
    2. The cathechism is a summary of catholic doctrine, much more akin to constitution than guide.
    3. You are the only one moving the goalposts. You first claimed that dictionaries define christmas as a christian festival (hence Higgins should have referenced christianity in his speech). However I proved that it is also defined as secular, so his not referencing it is actually a non-point. Tell me, if you have always accepted that christmas is both christian and secular festival (as many dictionaries define it), then what was your initial disagreement about?
    4. No they don't, because as we both know, your original point was that christmas is only a christian festival.
    5. Many people is not all people. I didn't get any from Jews or Muslims, but I did get many from atheists and agnostics.
    6. So you accept that you are wrong?


  • #567
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    weisses wrote: »
    Sorry but that's your opinion (and probably widely shared on this forum)

    Claiming the census got it wrong based on opinion and inaccurate polls is not the way to go i think

    Y'know what it's like? Hardcore tea-partiers saying Obama isn't the legitimate President AFTER the election.

    Their argument:
    1. A poll of 1,000 people which showed Romney leading.
    2. They know 7 people who voted for Romney and only 3 who voted for Obama.
    3. A poll showing +50% of people opposing abortion - It's somehow impossible to be a Democrat and oppose abortion.
    4. Other people are too thick to understand who they actually should have voted for. If they weren't so thick they would realise they are actually Republican. Their votes should be transferred to Romney.
    5. Democratic brainwashing makes people vote Democrat even when they don't want to.
    6. Voting is just "ticking a box".


  • #568
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    weisses wrote: »
    See that is something you assume

    It would be better if they would have asked what religion people where and posted that as well

    Its not needed though. If you properly take the 1000 people at random across the entire population then you will get a religious distribution similar to the whole population (with a certain degree of error of course). Given that the 1000 people were split across all constituencies, the size of the error will be kept small. This is not an assumption, these studies were performed by profession bodies for this kind of thing (MRBI, Red C etc.) and that's how these studies work.

    You ignored my second point though, why fixate on one study, when all the studies referenced since 1997 have show roughly similar support for some kind of abortion? One study might have somehow ended up with 1000 non-christians, but multiple studies by multiple professional bodies across a long period time? That's not very likely at all.

    You need to do a lot better than this to discount the polls.


  • #569
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Y'know what it's like? Hardcore tea-partiers saying Obama isn't the legitimate President AFTER the election.

    Their argument:
    1. A poll of 1,000 people which showed Romney leading.
    2. They know 7 people who voted for Romney and only 3 who voted for Obama.
    3. A poll showing +50% of people opposing abortion - It's somehow impossible to be a Democrat and oppose abortion.
    4. Other people are too thick to understand who they actually should have voted for. If they weren't so thick they would realise they are actually Republican. Their votes should be transferred to Romney.
    5. Democratic brainwashing makes people vote Democrat even when they don't want to.
    6. Voting is just "ticking a box".

    http://blog.theleagueofreason.co.uk/news/another-ridiculous-poll-from-the-daily-express/

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/13/is-obama-a-muslim-polls-unfairly-made-southerners-look-stupid-claim-the-five-hosts/

    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1043880?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103324759093


  • #570
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You need to do a lot better than this to discount the polls.

    You need to do a lot better in proving a poll done on 1000 people is more accurate then a survey covering the whole population


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  • #571
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Y'know what it's like? Hardcore tea-partiers saying Obama isn't the legitimate President AFTER the election.

    Their argument:
    1. A poll of 1,000 people which showed Romney leading.
    2. They know 7 people who voted for Romney and only 3 who voted for Obama.
    3. A poll showing +50% of people opposing abortion - It's somehow impossible to be a Democrat and oppose abortion.
    4. Other people are too thick to understand who they actually should have voted for. If they weren't so thick they would realise they are actually Republican. Their votes should be transferred to Romney.
    5. Democratic brainwashing makes people vote Democrat even when they don't want to.
    6. Voting is just "ticking a box".

    Are you paid per hyperbole?

    It would be more like 96% of the population being educated in schools 'owned' by the Republican Party with a Republican ethos and the head of the household votes on behalf of everyone in the house.


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