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The Mark Duggan trial.

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Comments

  • #122
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Semantics. He's still dead isn't he? He was shot dead when he was unarmed and exiting a car with no gun in his hand. I'm not saying Duggan was an upstanding citizen who the cops randomly targeted, but he was wrongly shot dead in my eyes and people have a right to point that out without being accused of undermining law and order, as some in this thread have done.



    It clearly isn't considering there has been a number of incidents of trigger-happy policing in London (and the world over) which has led to people being wrongly killed. As I mentioned earlier, De Menzes (an entirely innocent working man) was shot seven times in the head by the police who susbsequently put out a load of bullsh*t then to cover their arse.

    Police brutality (and racism) exists and that "endangers lives" also as has been demonstrated continuously in the past.

    I'm not 100% convinced about the verdict myself, but ultimately a jury examined the evidence and came to a conclusion.

    The Met Police are bastards for sure, but let's put this in to proportion. There are very few police shootings in London, especially when you consider the size of the place.

    Out of curiosity, where you living in London when De Menezes was killed?


  • #123
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Napper Hawkins wrote: »
    I'd agree he didn't expect to be gunned down in cold blood, ****ebags who carry guns around like Mark Duggan tend to think they are invincible and have no concept of their own mortality.

    Also, I don't think they were having a go at the genre, I'm pretty sure they were having a go at the army of thicks who try to live out a fantasy portrayed in many rap music videos/lyrics.

    Sure there are those who get off on that but you know, there's plenty of heavy metal fans who lead a raucous life and all that. And remember the mods and rockers. Every genre has its more extreme followers...


  • #124
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    kuntboy wrote: »
    Scumbag lived by the sword. How many people did he terrorise and brutalise with his gun previously? I am sick to death of scumbag wannabe "gangsta" knob-jockeys and their thug gangsta "culture" that is all over the place nowadays. Prancing around thinking they are hard with their guns and pitbulls trying to intimidate everyone, and with their stupid souped-up hotrods with spoilers blasting out dubstep. If they only knew how ridiculous they looked, they all think they're in a US rap video, its pathetic.

    de Menzes should have stopped when told to by the cops, instead he ran onto a train chased by them a few days after an attack- what an idiot, what did he expect would happen?

    Nobody. He got that gun minutes before the police stopped him...


  • #125
    Napper Hawkins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭Napper Hawkins


    old hippy wrote: »
    Sure there are those who get off on that but you know, there's plenty of heavy metal fans who lead a raucous life and all that. And remember the mods and rockers. Every genre has its more extreme followers...

    True enough, it's got basically nothing to do with musical taste though. More like gullible fools who take things too far and can't differentiate between fantasy and reality.

    You can be into black metal and manage to not murder any Christians, for example.


  • #126
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I'm not 100% convinced about the verdict myself, but ultimately a jury examined the evidence and came to a conclusion.

    They made a certain interpretation of the facts that ultimately the police weren't acting illegally. They did however agree on the fact that Duggan was unarmed when he was shot and the gun was well away from him when he was killed. Which basically means the police opened fire and killed him without them ever having seen a weapon in his hand. Now of course the argument could also be made that Duggan was a criminal and brought that attention on himself. That may well be the case, but as I alluded to earlier, the Met being trigger-happy and generally abusive toward swathes of London has affected plenty of innocent people as well with often tragic consequences.
    The Met Police are bastards for sure, but let's put this in to proportion. There are very few police shootings in London, especially when you consider the size of the place.

    I'm not saying they're like the cops in Rio or anything; and any personal dealings I've had with the cops over here have actually been positive enough. However, there is also a pretty nasty side to the Met here which was finally exposed with the Stephen Lawrence case.
    Out of curiosity, where you living in London when De Menezes was killed?

    No, I moved over a year and half after.


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  • #127
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    The unit has been involved in thousands of incidents, arrests and raids with firearms discharged only 6 times - I wouldn't exactly call that trigger happy

    Also, there was a huge amount of criticism for the tame, hands-off approach by the UK police to the subsequent riots


  • #128
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    FTA69 wrote: »

    They made a certain interpretation of the facts that ultimately the police weren't acting illegally. They did however agree on the fact that Duggan was unarmed when he was shot and the gun was well away from him when he was killed. Which basically means the police opened fire and killed him without them ever having seen a weapon in his hand. Now of course the argument could also be made that Duggan was a criminal and brought that attention on himself. That may well be the case, but as I alluded to earlier, the Met being trigger-happy and generally abusive toward swathes of London has affected plenty of innocent people as well with often tragic consequences.

    I'm not saying they're like the cops in Rio or anything; and any personal dealings I've had with the cops over here have actually been positive enough. However, there is also a pretty nasty side to the Met here which was finally exposed with the Stephen Lawrence case.

    No, I moved over a year and half after.

    I knew a black met policeman who was in the force at the time the Stephen Lawrence enquiry reported. He suddenly became everyone's best friend!

    From what I can deduce, the policemen that shot Duggan did not see a gun, but it had been confirmed to them that he had one.

    Honestly, to judge the policemen that shot JC De Menezes you had to be living or working in London at the time. Two attacks on the tube in the space of a week and the atmosphere in the city could be cut with a knife. My heart goes out to his family, but I also have a lot of sympathy for the policemen involved as well. As far as they were concerned, he was a suicide bomber.


  • #129
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Duggan was a nephew of the notorious Noonan brothers originally from Dublin who terrorised a community in Manchester for years. Thugs and bullies cruel and sadistiic and young Mark was brought to visit them from age 3 to be immersed in their gangster ways. Poor Mark never stood a chance. His primary teacher said he was the most unmanageable child she had ever had.
    If he had been out at work to help to feed and clothe the 6 kids he created he'd be still alive but no he was in a taxi in the middle of the day with a gun in a shoebox.
    I've rarely seen such a hatefull person as that aunt last night. Vile.


  • #130
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So if "intelligence" says someone has a gun they're fair game?

    Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
    If in doubt take him out


  • #131
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Pudders wrote: »
    Blair Peach

    Colin Roach

    Harry Stanley

    Charles de Menzes

    Ian Tomlinson

    Now these are all cases that the Met Police should answer about.

    And no progress either on the Cock Robin killing.
    Everyone wants to know who killed him and it is reported that a sparrow has admitted it. Apparently he used a bow and arrow


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  • #132
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    catallus wrote: »
    Wasn't the information available to the police that he had a gun in the taxi? And when he saw the police he threw the gun out the window of the taxi?
    apparently, to me thats effectively a surrender

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #133
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    catallus wrote: »
    If a policeman even has a scent of a rumour of information that someone is carrying a gun then they're fair game.
    not good enough, their has to be absolute evidence before a situation like this can be allowed to happen, the met bungled this up as per
    catallus wrote: »
    The idea that policemen should risk their lives on the off-chance that a scumbag will be magnanimous in arrest is deeply stupid.
    not at all, a fire arms officer is payed to risk his life

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #134
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Gatling wrote: »
    Theres the issue nobody's 100% from the witness side what he had ,
    Especially if you seen the low quality videos taken by witnes[s/QUOTE]

    same could be said for the police, their intelligence was faulty at best
    Gatling wrote: »
    Intelligence says he was armed[s/QUOTE]

    it was wrong, he had no gun on him when shot so that makes the intelligence invalid
    Gatling wrote: »
    He was armed we know that[s/QUOTE]

    we don't, no gun was found on him
    Gatling wrote: »
    Now take the side of the firearms officer who fired the shots suspect known for violence confirmed as having a fire arm on his persons makes a sudden moved either raising a loaded weapon or supposed phone at you do you wait to be hit first or do you do your job and protect yourself and the public and take the person down[s/QUOTE]

    no weapon was raised, if it was then their wouldn't be an issue
    Gatling wrote: »
    Its a very fine line that some police officers have to take sometimes[s/QUOTE]

    god love them, they get payed and don't get identified

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #135
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    catallus wrote: »
    then try to assert that an innocent such as myself would be conceivably the target of police violence.
    i bet that poor brazilian murdered on a tube train in 2005 thought the same
    catallus wrote: »
    The fact is is that the man killed by police was under surveillance.
    according to the police, a police force who is well known for telling lies in fairness

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #136
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Mint Aero wrote: »
    This thread

    This thread...is like PC brigade jizz circle heaven.

    *Grabs popcorn*

    *Pulls up seat and drops pants*
    are you 2 years old or something? what does us owners of personal computers have to do with this thread?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #137
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    That's not what you said. You wrote this..





    The fact remains that the police shot an unarmed man dead.
    again

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #138
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    There goes sensible discussion.


  • #139
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    jimboblep wrote: »
    This guy was armed they did find a gun at the scene

    doesn't mean it was his, it seems no DNA was actually found on the gun
    jimboblep wrote: »
    He was also known to police from my reading of the situation he had thrown the gun or was in the process of it

    had thrown it apparently, effectively a surrender
    jimboblep wrote: »
    The officer had to make a quick decision i dont think it was premeditated or a case of this is the only way we could get him

    no, the officer fecked up, i would like to agree with you it wasn't premeditated or whatever but lets face it the met is so far from squeeky clean one can't really trust what they say or do TBH

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #140
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    end of the road wrote: »
    Gatling wrote: »
    Theres the issue nobody's 100% from the witness side what he had ,
    Especially if you seen the low quality videos taken by witness/QUOTE]
    same could be said for the police, their intelligence was faulty at best
    Gatling wrote: »
    Intelligence says he was armed/QUOTE]
    it was wrong, he had no gun on him when shot so that makes the intelligence invalid
    Gatling wrote: »
    He was armed we know that/QUOTE]
    we don't, no gun was found on him
    Gatling wrote: »
    Now take the side of the firearms officer who fired the shots suspect known for violence confirmed as having a fire arm on his persons makes a sudden moved either raising a loaded weapon or supposed phone at you do you wait to be hit first or do you do your job and protect yourself and the public and take the person down/QUOTE]
    no weapon was raised, if it was then their wouldn't be an issue

    god love them, they get payed and don't get identified

    So specialist officers should be identified after a fatal shooting incident for what reason exactly
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #141
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Pudders wrote: »
    Blair Peach

    Colin Roach

    Harry Stanley

    Charles de Menzes

    Ian Tomlinson

    Now these are all cases that the Met Police should answer about.
    Im not a fan of One Direction either.


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  • #142
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    no comparison at all in these cases. One was a scumbag, the other was a sorry victim of the panic sweeping London after the Tube bombings.
    a scumbag is no reason to shoot someone, at least not in this country or britain, you and others might like that to be the case, but not going to happen, actually their is a comparison, both men were unarmed at the time when shot
    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    As for Mark Duggan and his ilk. He wont be missed from the gene pool.
    maybe not, but thats irrelevant

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #143
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    end of the road wrote: »
    a scumbag is no reason to shoot someone, at least not in this country or britain, you and others might like that to be the case, but not going to happen, actually their is a comparison, both men were unarmed at the time when shot

    maybe not, but thats irrelevant

    It's rather telling when threads like these descend into talk of gene pools and scumbag accusations. I expect a pro-eugenics sermon anytime soon.


  • #144
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    catallus wrote: »
    don't go running through a tube-station like a lunatic, hopping railings a few days after a major terrorist attack;
    oh yeah, isn't this the same stuff that was later found to be a big bunch of lies? yeah thats right.
    catallus wrote: »
    Any person who uses any of these events to criticise police need to just come out and say they are anti-law.
    lol, the usual "if you question the polices actions your against them" nonsense, this is a force who has a long history of corruption and lies, so not surprising even to this day they have a bad reputation or their actions will be meeted by mistrust right or wrong.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #145
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ShaunC wrote: »
    I'm not comparing the incidents but you can see why the police are ready too shoot first and ask questions later.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock
    yet will make excuses and won't admit if their wrong

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #146
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    So when the police say "stop or we'll shoot you" what should happen next? They just keeping asking him nicely to stop till his manners kick in? Threats are pointless if you don't follow them up.

    The police were questioned. There was a whole inquest. Didn't you hear?
    who says they shouted anything? they didn't to that poor brazilian murdered on the tube in 2005

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #147
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Live by the sword...
    he didn't live by the sword, he was shot over a gun, 2 completely different things

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #148
    Pug160
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    It's difficult to determine exactly what happened but Duggan was a violent criminal and quite frankly I have no sympathy whatsoever. Someone who knew him said something about karma and living by the gun and dying by the bullet - or words to that effect. I've found the coverage to be embarrassing - especially watching his aunt, who gave what appeared to be a black power salute. Classy bunch.


  • #149
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Goddamit endoftheroad are you going to do this for the next 6 pages or are you going to make a coherent point after having read the thread?


  • #150
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    In the one where you'd swiftly change your tune if he got away because the police didn't want to appear heavy handy then ended up shooting a member of your family.
    wrong

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #151
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    catallus wrote: »
    Goddamit endoftheroad are you going to do this for the next 6 pages or are you going to make a coherent point after having read the thread?

    You suggested that those of us who question deaths in custody or fatal shootings are somehow anti-law. Let's address that for starters.


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