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IFA accused of attempting to shut down dissenting voices

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Comments

  • #32
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    This is a general problems across organisations when they become large and hire professional/full time staff. A good few Trade Unions are gone the same way believe it or not.

    You really start to notice it when elections take place and the number voting continually drops. The top table then become populated over time with insiders these usually are so called activist's. It become in the interest of full time officials that there is no radicalism and a core within the organisation control it and wish for no change in policy.

    After a while there become's a core that feel rightly or wrongly that they are disenfranchised and top table usually instead of dealing with issue consider them troublemakers and refuse to listen to them.

    It is now reaching a critical time for the IFA either they change and listen or a large number will leave the organisation and as importantly will stop paying IFA levy to factory's and milk processors.

    Usually it is only when these organisations are hit hard in the pocket that they change,


  • #33
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    This is a general problems across organisations when they become large and hire professional/full time staff. A good few Trade Unions are gone the same way believe it or not.

    You really start to notice it when elections take place and the number voting continually drops. The top table then become populated over time with insiders these usually are so called activist's. It become in the interest of full time officials that there is no radicalism and a core within the organisation control it and wish for no change in policy.

    After a while there become's a core that feel rightly or wrongly that they are disenfranchised and top table usually instead of dealing with issue consider them troublemakers and refuse to listen to them.

    It is now reaching a critical time for the IFA either they change and listen or a large number will leave the organisation and as importantly will stop paying IFA levy to factory's and milk processors.

    Usually it is only when these organisations are hit hard in the pocket that they change,

    And to finish this fairy tale, we'll all pack up and go home and live happily ever after.


  • #34
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    rancher wrote: »

    Thought for the day
    Those who can .....do
    Those who can't.....teach
    and then there's critics.....who can neither do nor teach

    Not really sure what the above thought brings...

    It makes me want to ask is that the official IFA position on critism - that all critism should be immediately rejected, and the critics themselves portrayed as somewhat useless?


  • #35
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    Username John wrote: »
    Not really sure what the above thought brings...

    It makes me want to ask is that the official IFA position on critism - that all critism should be immediately rejected, and the critics themselves portrayed as somewhat useless?

    That was said to me many years ago, don't where it came from but it has proved to be true over and over again...you'll see it's reasonably true


  • #36
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    rancher wrote: »
    That was said to me many years ago, don't where it came from but it has proved to be true over and over again...you'll see it's reasonably true

    It's a bad sign to be afraid of dissent or criticism. I will harp on again about Claremorris, a letter signed by 800+ IFA members was described by John Bryan as "silly", and any discussion of it was suppressed.

    Problems only fester.


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  • #37
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    It's a bad sign to be afraid of dissent or criticism. I will harp on again about Claremorris, a letter signed by 800+ IFA members was described by John Bryan as "silly", and any discussion of it was suppressed.

    Problems only fester.

    Don't worry Con, I sort the problems in my county. If you take on a job, you have to do it.


  • #38
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    rancher wrote: »
    Don't worry Con, I sort the problems in my county. If you take on a job, you have to do it.

    John Bryan did not seem to know that. Takes a bit of doing I would think to get 800 lads to sign something along with their herd number. That doesn't come from no where.


  • #39
    delaval
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭delaval


    rancher wrote: »
    delaval wrote: »
    I actually don't think a new org is necessary at all. The problem is that politics and spin doctors have taken over the organisation.

    I recall one meeting in 08 when milk price was heading for a peak, saying at a meeting that we are about to price ourselves out if the market. I didn't say it needed to fall, well the reaction and ridicule I had to listen to from the top table was unreal. They should have seen what was coming but we were happy so they felt all was ok. Before you say they have no control over price, I agree but a bit of reality is all people ask for.

    Again, do you agree or not about my comment about a disconnect?[/QUOTE]

    No more so than years ago, same few here going to Meetings,Protests etc as there ever was.
    You can't say either that I'm not saying it as it is, you're definitely getting reality from me.

    Just a quick question, know nothing about Strathroy, but they're keen for milk......will they require money up front like the rest of the proceesors or will new entrants get in with out hello money

    Strathroy need the NFC logo, some WX suppliers feel the need not to supply Glanbia.

    You'll remember the Westmeath "auction" I'm sure. I sure you recall how it ended. A promise of a better price.

    The deal is done end of I'd say.

    I'd say there'll be no 2c charge on new milk, it'll be based on shareholding I'd say.


  • #40
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    This is a general problems across organisations when they become large and hire professional/full time staff. A good few Trade Unions are gone the same way believe it or not.

    You really start to notice it when elections take place and the number voting continually drops. The top table then become populated over time with insiders these usually are so called activist's. It become in the interest of full time officials that there is no radicalism and a core within the organisation control it and wish for no change in policy.

    After a while there become's a core that feel rightly or wrongly that they are disenfranchised and top table usually instead of dealing with issue consider them troublemakers and refuse to listen to them.

    It is now reaching a critical time for the IFA either they change and listen or a large number will leave the organisation and as importantly will stop paying IFA levy to factory's and milk processors.

    Usually it is only when these organisations are hit hard in the pocket that they change,
    On top of this as the age profile of the core decision makers increases they tend to make decisions which protect their pensions and in the case of older farmers their SFP thus the bias in the IFA towards the status quo in the CAP reform debate.
    Another interesting aspect of this is that this "pension"mindset reduces land mobility as the older farmer wants to hold on to his entitlements at all costs thus denying his offspring a proper shot at farming until he dies.
    The age profile of farmers has gone up because of this and will continue to rise if young farmers continue to be disenfranchised


  • #41
    bob charles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    coolshannagh28 wrote: »
    The age profile of farmers has gone up because of this and will continue to rise if young farmers continue to be disenfranchised

    The age profile has gone up because for all the work we putting in, we are receiving peanuts for our efforts. couple this with layers of bureaucracy. If there was a decent few quid in the job there would be plenty of farmers.


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  • #42
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    bob charles wrote: »
    The age profile has gone up because for all the work we putting in, we are receiving peanuts for our efforts. couple this with layers of bureaucracy. If there was a decent few quid in the job there would be plenty of farmers.

    You have to ask then , who is making sure you are not rewarded?


  • #43
    bob charles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    coolshannagh28 wrote: »
    You have to ask then , who is making sure you are not rewarded?

    Government?


  • #44
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    coolshannagh28 wrote: »
    On top of this as the age profile of the core decision makers increases they tend to make decisions which protect their pensions and in the case of older farmers their SFP thus the bias in the IFA towards the status quo in the CAP reform debate.
    Another interesting aspect of this is that this "pension"mindset reduces land mobility as the older farmer wants to hold on to his entitlements at all costs thus denying his offspring a proper shot at farming until he dies.
    The age profile of farmers has gone up because of this and will continue to rise if young farmers continue to be disenfranchised

    Are you in the real world!!!!!!!
    In the real world most farms have an income for one family......the owner.
    If that's a sixty year old farmer, how can he give it away and live for maybe ten years without an income and even then be only getting €230/ wk.
    Farmers aren't public servants that can retire at maybe 55 and get a pension, no, their farm is their income, especially what happened with pensions in the last five years and no Government/IFA is going to change that situation.
    The best transfers around here I see is where the farm skips a generation, a young guy gets it from grandparents.
    Also father/son/daughter partnerships don't always be great fun either.
    In NewZealand, young people have to buy the farm from their parents.

    Can't see many farmers wanting to farm into senility, but most can't afford not too


  • #45
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    rancher wrote: »
    Are you in the real world!!!!!!!
    In the real world most farms have an income for one family......the owner.
    If that's a sixty year old farmer, how can he give it away and live for maybe ten years without an income and even then be only getting €230/ wk.
    Farmers aren't public servants that can retire at maybe 55 and get a pension, no, their farm is their income, especially what happened with pensions in the last five years and no Government/IFA is going to change that situation.
    The best transfers around here I see is where the farm skips a generation, a young guy gets it from grandparents.
    Also father/son/daughter partnerships don't always be great fun either.
    In NewZealand, young people have to buy the farm from their parents.

    Can't see many farmers wanting to farm into senility, but most can't afford not too

    You have unearthed the vicious circle that lies at the heart of farming ,farming does not pay enough money to provide an income never mind a pension ,the SFP becomes the pension leading to the low transferability of the farm .
    Why does farming not provide adequate income ,because the price of the product is fixed by the cartel and the cartel is supported by the government and the insiders,


  • #46
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    rancher wrote: »
    Are you in the real world!!!!!!!
    In the real world most farms have an income for one family......the owner.
    If that's a sixty year old farmer, how can he give it away and live for maybe ten years without an income and even then be only getting €230/ wk.
    Farmers aren't public servants that can retire at maybe 55 and get a pension, no, their farm is their income, especially what happened with pensions in the last five years and no Government/IFA is going to change that situation.
    The best transfers around here I see is where the farm skips a generation, a young guy gets it from grandparents.
    Also father/son/daughter partnerships don't always be great fun either.
    In NewZealand, young people have to buy the farm from their parents.

    Can't see many farmers wanting to farm into senility, but most can't afford not too

    By planning for his retirement. You seem to be implying that younger farmers who are looking to move on have the problem which only emphasises Pudsys point about organisations as large as the IFA becoming inert, anything that looks like change has to be suppressed.

    I took a job as a branch secretary and delegate this year. I'll give it a spin for a year and see what happens. I want to see radical change within the industry and the association if I don't see a willingness to at least discuss changes in the coming year it''ll be the second departure of this member certainly from any sort of active roll in the organisation.


  • #47
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    freedominacup wrote: »
    By planning for his retirement. You seem to be implying that younger farmers who are looking to move on have the problem which only emphasises Pudsys point about organisations as large as the IFA becoming inert, anything that looks like change has to be suppressed.

    I took a job as a branch secretary and delegate this year. I'll give it a spin for a year and see what happens. I want to see radical change within the industry and the association if I don't see a willingness to at least discuss changes in the coming year it''ll be the second departure of this member certainly from any sort of active roll in the organisation.

    No, I'm saying it as a sixty year old farmer who's depending on the farm for my income, present and future and who sees farmers who took farm retirement being left to farm because the 'farmer' has fecked off and got a job.
    Theres lots of concessions there for young farmers, I should know, I've had to lobby for them every budget, but they're not worth a damn if the owner hasn't another income so that he can give away his farm.
    I invested in the farm and paid into a pension that was decimated because some senior public servants didn't do their jobs, so I won't be giving away my farm anytime soon.
    Why would I !!!!!


  • #48
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    freedominacup wrote: »
    I want to see radical change within the industry and the association

    Good luck with that, have 14 months put in in the same role as you took up.


  • #49
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    rancher wrote: »
    Are you in the real world!!!!!!!
    In the real world most farms have an income for one family......the owner.
    If that's a sixty year old farmer, how can he give it away and live for maybe ten years without an income and even then be only getting €230/ wk.
    Farmers aren't public servants that can retire at maybe 55 and get a pension, no, their farm is their income, especially what happened with pensions in the last five years and no Government/IFA is going to change that situation.
    The best transfers around here I see is where the farm skips a generation, a young guy gets it from grandparents.
    Also father/son/daughter partnerships don't always be great fun either.
    In NewZealand, young people have to buy the farm from their parents.

    Can't see many farmers wanting to farm into senility, but most can't afford not too
    rancher wrote: »
    No, I'm saying it as a sixty year old farmer who's depending on the farm for my income, present and future and who sees farmers who took farm retirement being left to farm because the 'farmer' has fecked off and got a job.
    Theres lots of concessions there for young farmers, I should know, I've had to lobby for them every budget, but they're not worth a damn if the owner hasn't another income so that he can give away his farm.
    I invested in the farm and paid into a pension that was decimated because some senior public servants didn't do their jobs, so I won't be giving away my farm anytime soon.
    Why would I !!!!!

    This is much the same for many private sector workers, most have had pension decimated over the last 5 years. A good few now find that they too will have to work into late sixty's before the OAP kicks in.

    The reality is that the pension industry in Ireland is a sham and unless your employer matches contributions it is crazy investing in one. However there are way around it after fifty the amounts you can invest in same and get tax relief on is substandical. Look at investing in ultra low risk funds such as Government bonds and deposit accounts. Return will be quite small 2-3% however with tax relief actual return will be in in the 10% bracket. However investing in pensions is tax defered you are allowed to take 1.5 time a years salary as a lump sum and must but an annunity then ( check regulations and talk to a good investment advisor).

    I was dispointed that Rovi closed the previous investment thread as often in farming it is somthing we fail to look at. Maybe at some stage we can open one and look at different options available to farmers. The only thing to be aware of is that we are not professionals however in a way that is not a bad thing because some of us may bring different outlooks to the table.

    This often is what farmers cannot understand about parttimers. With us while it is a buisness we often consider that we would prefer to part fund our retirement through a farming buisness rather than by trusting pension funds completly (I am in a scheme through work that is preforming well). However some managed funds have scandlous feed and investment charges. The other advise is make sure as you get nearer your retirement age that it is derisked. remember you have to notify fund of the same.

    Sorry for taking this thread off course

    Pudsey


  • #50
    randomperson12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭randomperson12


    No, I'm saying it as a sixty year old farmer who's depending on the farm for my income, present and future and who sees farmers who took farm retirement being left to farm because the 'farmer' has fecked off and got a job.
    Theres lots of concessions there for young farmers, I should know, I've had to lobby for them every budget, but they're not worth a damn if the owner hasn't another income so that he can give away his farm.
    I invested in the farm and paid into a pension that was decimated because some senior public servants didn't do their jobs, so I won't be giving away my farm anytime soon.
    Why would I !!!!!


    stop talking about this ranchers bull


  • #51
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭Rovi


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    I was dispointed that Rovi closed the previous investment thread as often in farming it is somthing we fail to look at. Maybe at some stage we can open one and look at different options available to farmers.

    That thread made no mention of farming or anything related to it, so was pretty Off-Topic for this forum in my opinion.

    Please feel free to start another one, but it'll need to approach the subject from a 'farming' point of view.
    Not plucking random figures out of the air or 'if you won the Lotto' scenarios, but how funds might be released from the farm to generate an income for a retiring farmer for example, or would a better income be generated by selling part/all of the farm?


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  • #52
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭Rovi


    [MOD]

    randomperson12: please review your posting style before posting in this forum again.
    Much of your content comes across as confrontational and abrasive, with an occasional lurch into 'personal abuse' territory.

    Red Card issued.

    [/MOD]


  • #53
    biddy2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭biddy2013


    Rovi wrote: »
    [MOD]

    randomperson12: please review your posting style before posting in this forum again.
    Much of your content comes across as confrontational and abrasive, with an occasional lurch into 'personal abuse' territory.

    Red Card issued.

    [/MOD]
    does a red card not mean that the person is banned


  • #54
    biddy2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭biddy2013


    Rovi wrote: »
    [MOD]

    randomperson12: please review your posting style before posting in this forum again.
    Much of your content comes across as confrontational and abrasive, with an occasional lurch into 'personal abuse' territory.

    Red Card issued.

    [/MOD]
    does a red card not mean that the person is banned


  • #55
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    biddy2013 wrote: »
    does a red card not mean that the person is banned

    Think most of us were ignoring him anyway


  • #56
    tanko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭tanko


    rancher wrote: »
    Think most of us were ignoring him anyway

    Speak for yourself, thought he made some good points about the disaster of an organisation that the Ifa is.

    THe leaders of the IFA have been stabbing farmers in the back for decades in return for the promise of a handy number and a fat pension in Brussels or Dáil Éireann.


  • #57
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    tanko wrote: »
    Speak for yourself, thought he made some good points about the disaster of an organisation that the Ifa is.

    THe leaders of the IFA have been stabbing farmers in the back for decades in return for the promise of a handy number and a fat pension in Brussels or Dáil Éireann.

    100.000 members......must be doing something right.


  • #58
    Miname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭Miname


    100,000 members. That no. Has to be decreasing lads are just fed up with the same old muck being turned over and over and no real progress.


  • #59
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    Miname wrote: »
    100,000 members. That no. Has to be decreasing lads are just fed up with the same old muck being turned over and over and no real progress.
    Actually well over it if you count IFA countryside.


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