Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

con___manx1 · 08-09-2013 11:13PM

i think we should bring the death penalty back. after sentence 2 years of prison before execution. none of this 20 years crap like in america.

end of the road · 08-09-2013 11:27PM

con___manx1 wrote: »

i think we should bring the death penalty back. after sentence 2 years of prison before execution. none of this 20 years crap like in america.

you do know the reason they have people on death row for years in america is so they can apeal their sentence? after all theirs not only a possibility they aren't guilty but getting the evidence together to try prove it takes a long time

old hippy · 09-09-2013 12:28PM

catallus wrote: »

Reducing another person's ideas about anything in this fashion is infantile.

You said you'd off him for a fee. That's mercenary and has nothing to do with getting "justice".

catallus · 09-09-2013 12:42PM

Is it a crime to expect remuneration for carrying out a job? No, oldhippy, it isn't.

Your use of a pat tautology (Murder is murder) to set yourself up as some sort of bastion of justice is simplistic to the point of pathological narcissism. Just because you deem your own precious hands too worthy to be stained by the blood of wrongdoers doesn't make your cowardly attitude any more legitimate.

The snide and smug defence of the killers and rapists and thieves of this world by those who have never had the misfortune to be one of their victims has gone on for far too long.

Amirani · 09-09-2013 12:45PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I wouldn't support a reintroduction of the death penalty, although looking around me these days it'd be hard to argue a case against eugenics.

I don't think it would be that hard to argue. Eugenics is easily one of the most abhorrent beliefs ever pursued by humanity. You may have good intentions of making it exclusively for criminals, but there's a slippery slope that just isn't worth attempting to go down.

old hippy · 09-09-2013 12:46PM

catallus wrote: »

Is it a crime to expect remuneration for carrying out a job? No, oldhippy, it isn't.

Your use of a pat tautology (Murder is murder) to set yourself up as some sort of bastion of justice is simplistic to the point of pathological narcissism. Just because you deem your own precious hands too worthy to be stained by the blood of wrongdoers doesn't make your cowardly attitude any more legitimate.

The snide and smug defence of the killers and rapists and thieves of this world by those who have never had the misfortune to be one of their victims has gone on for far too long.

I've experienced all manner of brutality and unpleasantness over the years. I've been tested to the limit and beaten unconcious. But to indulge in the creepy, wanton bloodlust that just screams Old Testament in some corners or fetishising in others... nah, not for me.

I'd rather be a smug, cowardly narcissist than a wannabe murderer with a hard on for blood and money. Every single time.

heretochat · 09-09-2013 12:48PM

Reading a story this morning about some farmer in Tipp hanged back in 1941 for the murder of a woman. Some doubts now about his guilt and he may be given a posthumous pardon.. So I would temper any enthusiasm for the re-introduction of the death penalty.. As if there is a miscarriage of justice the executed person cannot be "brought back", while at present the victim of said miscarriage can be released from prison...

I have my own feelings that there is not a sufficient deterrent to serious crime in the country but I am not sure the death penalty would be a welcome re-introduction either.

Amirani · 09-09-2013 12:50PM

catallus wrote: »

Your use of a pat tautology (Murder is murder) to set yourself up as some sort of bastion of justice is simplistic to the point of pathological narcissism.

That's some stunning exaggeration there.

Billy86 · 09-09-2013 01:04PM

Why do people think the death penalty would be a deterrent for crimes like murder, when in the US it is actually the opposite? States with the death penalty actually have higher murder rates. The same is true for rates (or rather in this case, it is not any lower in states with the death penalty).

It creates a worse SOCIETAL issue, but typically many people can't see the forest for the trees, or just flat out don't want to. Some people want to get ANGRY NOW rather than look at how to cure the problem in the long run.

catallus · 09-09-2013 01:05PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

That's some stunning exaggeration there.

I do love the smell of stunning exaggeration in the morning!

Look, the re-introduction of capital punishment for serious criminals is a pipe-dream for those of us who see the system as having swung massively in favour of perpetrators. It is a comforting dream, a knee-jerk reaction against what many view as the stagnation and corruption of a system which should be in favour of those who are wronged rather than those who do wrong.

If justice isn't seen to be done (and that it is seen to be done is a massive touchstone in our legal system) then the opinions of many will swing in a more authoritarian direction. I'm not saying it's right, it's just that sometimes the will and imaginations of many will swing to the extreme of the death penalty.

There is blood-lust in every one of us, there can be no denying it, and it is a measure of the better nature of our consciences that many of us subsume it through mercy and empathy. But there is a point up to which our better natures will be bent to the point of breaking, and we have seen it happen in history before, and it isn't pretty.

Too much suffering makes a stone of the heart, to quote a recently passed poet.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-09-2013 01:18PM

catallus wrote: »

I do love the smell of stunning exaggeration in the morning!

Look, the re-introduction of capital punishment for serious criminals is a pipe-dream for those of us who see the system as having swung massively in favour of perpetrators. It is a comforting dream, a knee-jerk reaction against what many view as the stagnation and corruption of a system which should be in favour of those who are wronged rather than those who do wrong.

If justice isn't seen to be done (and that it is seen to be done is a massive touchstone in our legal system) then the opinions of many will swing in a more authoritarian direction. I'm not saying it's right, it's just that sometimes the will and imaginations of many will swing to the extreme of the death penalty.

There is blood-lust in every one of us, there can be no denying it, and it is a measure of the better nature of our consciences that many of us subsume it through mercy and empathy. But there is a point up to which our better natures will be bent to the point of breaking, and we have seen it happen in history before, and it isn't pretty.

Too much suffering makes a stone of the heart, to quote a recently passed poet.

The probem there is, as is the problem with all knee-jerk reactinos, that the potential is there for it to create far more problems than it resolves. I've pointed this out, but no-one actually wants to deal with them.

Justice not being seen to be done is a problem, granted, but that does not mean that the death penatly is autoamtically the answer, and I have yet to hear one consise argument that it is.

Justice is based on hard, cold fact. Not imagination, not blood-lust and not emotion. Yes, there is a point where people will get emotive and want blood-lust, but not to the point that we base systems of justice on it. These emotions need to be transcended for a better more clearer vision, not subsumed.

Mr Williams · 20-12-2013 12:49AM

This character would be an ideal candidate for the death penalty. I'd like to see the human rights brigade try and defend this animal.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/paedophile-lostprophets-leader-ian-watkins-jailed-for-35-years-29850078.html

Billy86 · 20-12-2013 01:16AM

Mr Williams wrote: »

This character would be an ideal candidate for the death penalty. I'd like to see the human rights brigade try and defend this animal.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/paedophile-lostprophets-leader-ian-watkins-jailed-for-35-years-29850078.html

It's quite simple - as such a known figure with such horrific crimes, what he's got coming for that time is arguably worse than death. They typically don't take well at all to paedophiles in jails, never mind baby rapists.

Also if you do kill him, it's a lot harder to find out further information about the long, long list of other victims he had across Europe and/or the world. Call me crazy, but I'd call that pretty important to get to the bottom of as the police are pretty certain that what he has been put away for is tip of the iceberg stuff, sadly.

jank · 20-12-2013 01:29AM

Billy86 wrote: »

It's quite simple - as such a known figure with such horrific crimes, what he's got coming for that time is arguably worse than death. They typically don't take well at all to paedophiles in jails, never mind baby rapists.

.

This is strange logic. Death penalty is perceived as 'bad' because it is deemed 'barbaric' and 'cruel' yet no problem at all locking someone up with the hope they will be assaulted or raped. Great logic.

Mr Williams · 20-12-2013 01:33AM

This beast will be back on the streets after 30 years he should never ever be released.

end of the road · 20-12-2013 01:59AM

jank wrote: »

This is strange logic. Death penalty is perceived as 'bad' because it is deemed 'barbaric' and 'cruel' yet no problem at all locking someone up with the hope they will be assaulted or raped. Great logic.

and the fact that if you wrongly kill somebody you can't bring them back, if someone is sent to prison they can be released, not that thats any consolation to those who have been wrongly imprisoned

Rabelais · 20-12-2013 02:08AM

The death penalty is a disgusting concept. No rational society would even countenance such a thing. Thankfully we live in one.

NIMAN · 20-12-2013 02:13AM

I wonder if those advocating bringing it back would pull the lever to hang someone when it came to the crunch?

J_E · 20-12-2013 02:40AM

NIMAN wrote: »

I wonder if those advocating bringing it back would pull the lever to hang someone when it came to the crunch?

For sure. A lot of comfy armchair executioners/torturers here. It's all a lot easier when you've got a nice hot mug of cocoa and you're settling into a warm bed dictating who lives, dies, and gets tortured. Thought as humans we were beyond that crap.

jank · 20-12-2013 02:45AM

end of the road wrote: »

and the fact that if you wrongly kill somebody you can't bring them back, if someone is sent to prison they can be released, not that thats any consolation to those who have been wrongly imprisoned

Yet even in cases of absolute proof people would still argue against it? As I said, people here would have let perpetrators of genocide stay alive in jail rather then put them to death.

Was it wrong for the iraqi people to put Saddam to death. Simple yes or no.

B.A._Baracus · 20-12-2013 03:07AM

I do believe there is an "out of sight, out of mind" thing going on here.

Like, on the anti-death penalty side of discussion, someone still has to prison evil men. Guards and other workers at prisons will have their safety at risk housing said evil individuals. But I guess feck them, right? it's their job? :rolleyes:

I mean imagine some evil fucking murdering-rapist. Aint no changing him. If let out he'll rape and kill again. But yet we are meant to hold the value of his life while he doesnt hold the value of others? .... fuck that. Kill him.

Ahhhhh its grand · 20-12-2013 03:13AM

No, never. I don't remember the figures, but I read that over 30 people in the in the US have been executed only for them to later proven innocent, or at least some serious doubts cast over their convictions. As well as that, over 15 people have been proven innocent while on death row in the US. One person been wrongly executed is one too many in my opinion. The fact is, the death penalty murder, premeditated at that. Just doesn't sit right with me at all.

While I don't agree the death penalty, I think the US (depending on the state) has the right idea as regards to 'life without the possibility of parole'. This, in my opinion, should be mandatory in every country for the most serious of crimes. I know people complain about the cost to the taxpayer for such a punishment, but I'd gladly donate money to the prison system in order to keep such criminals off the street. Plus, there's also the argument that the death penalty actually costs more, with some inmates requesting over 15 appeals (and rightly so).

*I'm on my phone so the figures above are from memory, and probably not exact, but you get the point.

Too Tough To Die · 20-12-2013 03:18AM

You know, i think i would.

end of the road · 20-12-2013 03:21AM

jank wrote: »

Was it wrong for the iraqi people to put Saddam to death.

yes

J_E · 20-12-2013 03:28AM

Ahhhhh its grand wrote: »

While I don't agree the death penalty, I think the US (depending on the state) has the right idea as regards to 'life without the possibility of parole'. This, in my opinion, should be mandatory in every country for the most serious of crimes. I know people complain about the cost to the taxpayer for such a punishment, but I'd gladly donate money to the prison system in order to keep such criminals off the street. Plus, there's also the argument that the death penalty actually costs more, with some inmates requesting over 15 appeals (and rightly so). .

I dunno if using the US as a model for the prison system is a good idea even if some of the concepts are sound. With the privatisation of prisons and the jailing rate it's basically hell over there. An inordinate amount of people getting arrested for petty reasons because in part, it's highly profitable. That's the opposite extreme really.

Billy86 · 20-12-2013 03:33AM

jank wrote: »

This is strange logic. Death penalty is perceived as 'bad' because it is deemed 'barbaric' and 'cruel' yet no problem at all locking someone up with the hope they will be assaulted or raped. Great logic.

I'm talking purely from the logic of people who want the death penalty - supposedly because they want to see someone suffer or killed for what they have done. The next 30 years of his life is going to be worse than death quite likely, so I don't see their complaint?

The main reason for not imposing the death penalty I see is that a) it's a dangerous precedent, and b) as mentioned he is of more 'use' in terms of finding out what else he has done while alive than dead.

Billy86 · 20-12-2013 03:38AM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I mean imagine some evil fucking murdering-rapist. Aint no changing him. If let out he'll rape and kill again. But yet we are meant to hold the value of his life while he doesnt hold the value of others? .... fuck that. Kill him.

While I think life without parole would be the appropriate sentence here, the text in bold is to be left to people far, far more qualified than I and (I would assume) you in this matter.

Daqster · 20-12-2013 03:42AM

Few lines from a song by Steve Earle that always come to mind whenever people are discussing the death penalty.

Now my waitin's over and the final hour drags by.
I ain't about to tell you that I don't deserve to die.

There's twenty-seven men here, mostly black, brown and poor.
Most of us are guilty, but who are you to say for sure.

So when the preacher comes to get me and they shave off all my hair.
Could you take that long walk with me, knowing hell is waitin' there.

Could you pull that switch yourself sir, with a sure and steady hand.
Could you then still tell yourself sir, that you're better than I am.

B.A._Baracus · 20-12-2013 04:13AM

Billy86 wrote: »

While I think life without parole would be the appropriate sentence here, the text in bold is to be left to people far, far more qualified than I and (I would assume) you in this matter.

What was that story during the year about the Irish woman who got raped and killed in Australia.... The murderer was convicted a few times of rape previous.

Plead your opinion to her family. Please. Please do. Because I guess we should let him do his time and get out and 'lets hope for the best huh'

... oh but, i cant help but feel that as long as this person doesnt do anything to those you care about in the future, all is well, right?

Malcolm. · 20-12-2013 04:19AM

Ordinary Gardai will tell you they find it almost impossible to bring a case to court, never mind get a conviction.
Irish 'prisons', sentences, and courts no longer offer any deterrent what so ever to crime.
The Irish justice system has broken down.

Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

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