Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Constitutional Convention insults secular citizens with 2% vote on Church & State

2456

Comments

  • #32
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    These "second generation" rights are a bit wishy-washy, because they are not so much rights as aspirations.
    Like the example BB quoted;
    a random submission wrote:
    Human rights like the right to access healthcare when I need it, to have a home that is adequate for me and for my family, to have an income so that I can live a life of dignity, are important to me. These rights are also rights that Ireland has promised to protect. I call on the members of the Constitutional Convention to consider these issues and to recommend putting these rights in Bunreacht na hÉireann.
    The delegates can talk all weekend about all that good stuff, and have a great time sipping coffee while saying the State should provide every citizen with a well paid job, a nice house, fully comp. healthcare, a defined benefit pension etc etc.

    Yeah, we all want that....

    But realistically speaking, how about dealing the actual human rights first. Freedom from violence, persecution, discrimination, that sort of thing. Luckily we already have most of these, being a first world country. But the separation of church and state is the starting point in guaranteeing freedom from religious discrimination.


  • #33
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,678 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    . . . But the separation of church and state is the starting point in guaranteeing freedom from religious discrimination.
    Actually no, it isn't. "Separation of church and state" is a fairly vague idea, but there are lots of examples of countries with a separation of church and state, and quite aggressive religious discrimination, and other examples of countries where they don't have separation of church and state but do have excellent records on freedom of religion.


  • #34
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You are implying that the game has been rigged against you, are you not? That the public input section was mere window dressing?
    No, I have never suggested that. I think they have been making up the process as they go along, because they have no template to adhere to. And I don't mean "making it up" in a flippant way, I mean that they have been deciding on on ongoing basis what they are going to do next.


  • #35
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    expectationlost wrote: »
    heres the ballot they used just to see how it was presented https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/32602/284166.docx courtesy of convention member RangeR

    What issues should the Convention consider? (Mark 1 beside your first choice, Mark 2 beside your second choice and so on)

    Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
    (e.g. rights to social security and assistance for the family, an adequate standard of living, adequate housing, health care, education, culture and benefit from scientific progress)

    Political and Institutional Reform
    (reform of the Oireachtas – Dail Eireann, Seanad Eireann and the relationship with the Executive, reform of local government, the roles and powers of the President, the Ombudsman and the C&AG, freedom of Information, the referendum process and the appointment of judges)

    The Family and issues of morality
    (e.g. Article 40.3.3 - abortion and the right to life, the definition of the family, the right to die)

    Bill of Rights
    (the protection of fundamental human rights, having regard to the terms of the Good Friday and St. Andrew’s Agreements)

    Church and State
    (e.g. removal of all references to God in the Constitution, incl. in the Preamble, discontinue religious involvement in schools and hospitals, removal of the religious oath for office-holders)

    The Environment
    (e.g. the right to a clean/safe/sustainable environment; the State has a duty to respect, protect, maintain and improve the environment)
    That's quite worrying, as it suggests that the religious discrimination elements of Political and Institutional Reform and ESC Rights are not intended to be included in those two topics if they are (as they have been) selected as the two to discuss.


  • #36
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is some serious tunnel vision going on to be "insulted" that the seperation of Church and State places last amongst those other very important issues.
    I'm not sure why you keep saying that when I have repeatedly clarified that that is not what I referred to as being insulting.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I clicked through the first couple of pages to get a sample and seen no evidence of Michael/Atheist Ireland's claim that the separation of church and state was most requested; nevermind by any "massive margins".
    I didn't say that Church and State was requested "by massive margins", I said that discussion of it was rejected by a massive margin.

    What I said about the public support for including Church and State was that the category with most written submissions published on the Convention website, and the category with most people speaking for it at the public meetings, was Separation of Church and State.


  • #38
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,577 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Church and State
    (e.g. removal of all references to God in the Constitution, incl. in the Preamble, discontinue religious involvement in schools and hospitals, removal of the religious oath for office-holders)

    i thought this was quite starkly put, discontinue religious involvement in schools and hospitals


  • #39
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    expectationlost wrote: »
    i thought this was quite starkly put, discontinue religious involvement in schools and hospitals
    Yes, it is very starkly put, and it does not reflect Atheist Ireland's submission.

    What we recommended with regard to those type of issues was to amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, and to frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

    This is a summary of what we recommended:

    (a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

    (b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

    (c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.


  • #40
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    expectationlost wrote: »
    I didn't know off hand what ESC rights were I had to go look it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic,_social_and_cultural_rights
    it talks there about the Theory of rights, and the three generations of rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_generations_of_human_rights it something you have to dig into to get your head around but I guess it the idea of what are fundamental rights, which are the most fundamental I think this is what Michael Nugent is talking about


    Here is a better working defintiton from Amnesty Intl on ESC Rights. http://www.amnesty.org/en/economic-social-and-cultural-rights


    rights at work, particularly just and fair conditions of employment, protection against forced or compulsory labour and the right to form and join trade unions;
    the right to education, including ensuring that primary education is free and compulsory, that education is sufficiently available, accessible, acceptable and adapted to the individual;
    cultural rights of minorities and Indigenous Peoples;
    the right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, including the right to healthy living conditions and available, accessible, acceptable and quality health services;
    the right to adequate housing, including security of tenure, protection from forced eviction and access to affordable, habitable, well located and culturally adequate housing;
    the right to food, including the right to freedom from hunger and access at all times to adequate nutritious food or the means to obtain it;
    the right to water – the right to sufficient water and sanitation that is available, accessible (both physically and economically) and safe.


    Separation of Church and State was lucky to get 2% against what is essentially the rights of citizens not to live in abject poverty. For anyone to be offended that someone/many would consider that it is more important that our fellow citizens, including children should be at least entitled to the living conditions of our incarcerated rapists and murderers before getting nuns out of hospitals etc is hysterical nonsense.

    expectationlost wrote: »
    its not just Michael Nugent who puts a greater importance, (more fundamental) on freedom of religion (and freedom from religion) above ESC rights.
    Michael "BAN THE BURQA!!" Nugent is for "freedom of religion"???
    expectationlost wrote: »
    the evidence is there you just havn't bothered to count it, neither have I though cos I'll try to get the breakdown off RangeR


    Michael has made the claim, not I.


  • #41
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    I didn't say that Church and State was requested "by massive margins", I said that discussion of it was rejected by a massive margin.
    My mistake. Apologies
    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    What I said about the public support for including Church and State was that the category with most written submissions published on the Convention website, and the category with most people speaking for it at the public meetings, was Separation of Church and State.
    And you have yet to offer any evidence of this.

    And I don't want to sound patronising so don't take this the wrong way but you do understand what a "submission" is? And have you considered that your submission(s) were weaker than those selected and therefore your "insult" is unjustified?


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,577 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    we don't have all those ESCC rights now in our constitution (which is why its topic of discussing) and we're not all starving to death, although we do have many people struggling.


    here's the details of the summaries thanks to RangeR http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87963973&postcount=141

    the first doc 2#ccven AoA workbook.docx has the descriptions of the extra topics and who they are written by


    Im not surprised it was Prof. David Farrell who chose to not portray secularism in a positive way in terms of obligation for that state to provide for secular shcools and hospitals rather then a sudden removal or the church/orders from schools.

    3. Church & State – Prof. David Farrell
    Introduction: There is a mix of submissions, some calling, in various ways, for the Constitution to be secularised (to remove religious references) and others calling for it to be left as it is.
    Submission
    Notes

    Religious oath for office holders: Should office holders be required to swear a religious oath? Could they be offered a secular option instead?

    The Preamble to the Constitution: Should all religious references be removed (as was proposed, for instance, by the 1996 Constitution Review Group)

    Secularise the Constitution overall: Several submissions argued for the removal of all religious references throughout the Constitution, with particular reference to revising article 44.

    Separating Church and State: A question raised in one submission is whether religious orders should continue to have a role in managing schools and hospitals and other national institutions.


  • #43
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,577 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    so it seems the convention secretary notes absolute form letters, but there are your numbers

    25 securlarism submissions?

    [IMG]http:///www.dublinstreams.com/temp/submissions.jpg[/IMG]

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/32602/284299.xlsx .docx

    Topic Number of Submissions Number of Submissions(incl.attachments) Key Point
    Environmental Protection 132 18 Constitutional protection of the environment
    Economic, Social & Cultural Rights 104 19 Protection of economic, social & cultural rights Emails from Amnesty 60
    Secularism 25 11 Removal of religious references in the Constitution
    Family 19 13 Review of Articles 41 and 42 10Adoption Rights now! submissions
    Right to a Home *1 18 2 'Right to Home' clause in the Constitution
    Various *2 10 8 Each individual submission covers a range of topics
    Abortion 5 1 Abortion legislation NWCI
    Referendum 4 1 Citizen initiated referendums & referendum methods
    Seanad 4 0 Reform rather than abolition of the Seanad
    Dail reform 3 1 Candidacy
    President 3 1 Role and powers of the President
    Court Service and Judges 3 1 Court Service, Judicial Appointment & Public Law
    Local Government 3 1 Structure of local government
    Private Property Rights 3 3 The balance between right to Private Propery and the Common good
    Voting Rights 3 3 Extent voting rights to Irish citizens
    Freedom of Information 2 2 Embedding strong freedom of information provision in the Constitution
    Preamble 2 2 Update the preamble of the Constitution
    Equality Budgeting 1 1 Changes to Article 22 of the Constitution dealing with Money Bills to introduce mandatory equality budgeting to increase transparency and quality of decision making
    Ombudsman 1 1 Constitutional recognition for the Office of the Ombudsman
    Citizenship 1 1 Irish language and citizenship
    Name of State 1 1 Change the name of the State in the Constitution to the Republic of Ireland
    Mental Health 1 0 Access to mental healthcare
    Fundamental Rights 1 1 Expansion of enumerated rights
    Wildlife 1 0 Constitutional protection of animals
    Equality 1 0 Bodily integrity
    Children's Rights 1 0 Prohibition of circumcision
    Economic Policy 1 0 Inclusion of a reference to economic policy in the Constitution
    Comptroller and Auditor General 1 0 Update of articles Re C&AG
    Gender Recognition 1 0 Transgender recognition
    Neutrality , Coats of Arms, Flags and Emblems 1 1 Neutrality , Coats of Arms, Flags and Emblems
    Infrastructural Assets 1 1 Prevent sale of infrastructural assets
    Right to Build a Home on own Land 1 0 Building a home on own land is a survival necessity
    Bill of Rights 1 1 A Bill of Rights Amendment
    1916 1 1 Acknowledge the sovereign constitution and their 1916 proclaimation
    Irish Language 1 1 English language to be recognized equally as official national language Reform Group
    Commonwealth 1 1 Ireland should consider rejoining Commonwealth Reform Group
    Third Level Education 1 1 Third level fees for students should be reduced especially for non-EU students
    Honour Awards 1 1 Irish citizens should be allowed to accept British titles of nobility Reform Group
    Emergency Powers 1 1 Amendent article 28.3.3 in the Irish Constitution
    Right to Die 1 1 Respect the right to die and to assisted peaceful dying
    Replace Irish Constitution with a Swiss style Constitution 1 1 Replace Irish Constitution with a Swiss style Constitution
    Total of Other Submission up to & including 25 October 2013 367 103


  • #44
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    expectationlost wrote: »
    so it seems the convention secretary notes aside absolute form letters, but there are your numbers

    25 securlarism submissions?
    That list, despite apparently being sent by the Convention Secretariat to one of its members yesterday, is dated 25 October.

    That was when the Convention was finishing the agenda items that the Government had asked it to consider, and starting to publicly focus on the AOB category, and hold the public meetings around the country.

    At the closing date for submissions (end of November) this was our calculation of the number of submissions published on the Convention website for the six categories that the Convention had by then grouped into topics into for consideration:

    190 Separation of Church and State
    166 ESC rights 
    160 Environment                        
    110 Family and Issues of Morality                         
    53 Political and Institutional Reform
    32 Bill of Rights

    Our Regional Officer attended each of the public meetings, and took note of the number of speakers on each topic.

    Of the approximately 500 people who attended the public meetings:

    64 people spoke for Separation of Church and State and 8 opposed
    61 people spoke for political and Institutional reform
    52 people spoke for the Environment and 3 opposed
    34 people spoke for Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
    27 people spoke for Family and Issues of Morality
    .


  • #45
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    That list, despite apparently being sent by the Convention Secretariat to one of its members yesterday, is dated 25 October.

    That was when the Convention was finishing the agenda items that the Government had asked it to consider, and starting to publicly focus on the AOB category, and hold the public meetings around the country.

    At the closing date for submissions (end of November) this was our calculation of the number of submissions published on the Convention website for the six categories that the Convention had by then grouped into topics into for consideration:

    190 Separation of Church and State
    166 ESC rights
    160 Environment
    110 Family and Issues of Morality
    53 Political and Institutional Reform
    32 Bill of Rights

    Our Regional Officer attended each of the public meetings, and took note of the number of speakers on each topic.

    Of the approximately 500 people who attended the public meetings:

    64 people spoke for Separation of Church and State and 8 opposed
    61 people spoke for political and Institutional reform
    52 people spoke for the Environment and 3 opposed
    34 people spoke for Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
    27 people spoke for Family and Issues of Morality
    .

    I have asked you a number of times now can you support your clams with any actual evidence, I'll take the above as a no,

    Whatever the numbers of the submissions -- and I am sure you would agree that it should be quality before quantity -- the amounts will give a false impression of public opinion anyway.

    Militant atheists and militant environmentalists are better organised and make far more noise than (say) an individual citizen who strongly believes that our elderly population have an entitlement to live in a heated home in the winter and enough food to get them through each day.

    For example, can you imagine Alone lobbying and rallying the shock troops on boards.ie to distort the numbers? The way you have - twice!


  • #46
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    expectationlost wrote: »
    we don't have all those ESCC rights now in our constitution (which is why its topic of discussing) and we're not all starving to death, although we do have many people struggling.
    .
    Okay, bur can you understand the rationale of how 49 out 50 random Irish people could consider the codification of these rights to protect us all and our future generations before separation of Church and State?

    What good is secularising the schools if not every child has a right to an education?


  • #47
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    What good is secularising the schools if not every child has a right to an education?
    The Constitution already recognizes that every child has a right to an education.

    The religious influence in the Constitution prevents secular parents from vindicating that right for their children.

    .


  • #48
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I have asked you a number of times now can you support your clams with any actual evidence, I'll take the above as a no,
    I said that Separation of Church and State was the topic with most submissions published on the Convention website, and that it was the topic that had most people speaking for it at the public meetings.

    You asked for evidence to support that.

    I gave you the figures.

    You said that you would take that as a no.

    You're hilarious :D


  • #49
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    I said that Separation of Church and State was the topic with most submissions published on the Convention website, and that it was the topic that had most people speaking for it at the public meetings.

    You asked for evidence to support that.

    I gave you the figures.

    You said that you would take that as a no.

    You're hilarious :D

    Michael,

    You are making claims. Not providing any evidence.

    This is from the first 5 pages o thef submissions section to get a snapshot. Best effort based on the titles only. Separation of Church and State = SCS

    Page 1     https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx?cid=90
    Environment: 8
    Family: 2
    SCS: 0

    Page 2 https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx?cid=90
    Family: 8
    Environment: 1
    SCS: 1

    Page 3 https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx?cid=90

    ESC Rights: 13
    Family: 2
    SCS: 1

    Page 4     https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx?cid=90

    ESC Rights: 10
    Family: 3
    Environment: 1
    SCS: 1

    Page 5     https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx?cid=90
    ESC Rights: 5
    Environment: 4
    Family: 5
    SCS:0


    Totals:

    ESC 28
    Famly 20
    Environment 14
    SCS 3


  • #50
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Militant atheists and militant environmentalists
    "A militant atheist is an atheist who won't shut up when a religious person tells him to".

    Sigh. Time for a long-overdue update of the forum charter methinks.


  • #51
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Miltant =
    mil·i·tant (mibreve.giflprime.gifibreve.gif-tschwa.gifnt)adj.1. Fighting or warring.
    2. Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/militant

    Militant Atheist =

    "Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a (anti-religious) cause: a militant political activist Atheist.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Page 1 https://www.constitution.ie/Submissions.aspx?cid=90
    Environment: 8
    Family: 2
    SCS: 0


    My, what a detailed look you gave - going through the titles and taking a guess at the content. You'll find the submission from one Vincent Salafia refers to the separation of Church and State. That's just page one......


  • #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Miltant =



    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/militant

    Militant Atheist =

    "Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a (anti-religious) cause: a militant political activist Atheist.

    Sad.


  • #54
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nodin wrote: »
    My, what a detailed look you gave - going through the titles and taking a guess at the content. You'll find the submission from one Vincent Salafia refers to the separation of Church and State. That's just page one......
    And just 1 submission :D

    What have you done? It's Michael making the claims without providing any evidence, not me. At least I made an honest effort.


  • #55
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    And just 1 submission :D

    What have you done? It's Michael making the claims without providing any evidence, not me. At least I made an honest effort.


    Skimming through the titles is not making an honest effort.


  • #56
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nodin wrote: »
    Skimming through the titles is not making an honest effort.

    Yes it is. As the majority of the submissions are clearly labelled. Anything that wasn't I ignored.

    So what have) you done to ascertain if Michael claims are truthful? Do you deny that he hasn't provided any evidence?


  • #57
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Michael,

    You are making claims. Not providing any evidence.

    This is from the first 5 pages o thef submissions section to get a snapshot.
    You don't have to get a snapshot based on five pages.

    I've given you the figures for all of the submissions.


  • #58
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    You don't have to get a snapshot based on five pages.

    I've given you the figures for all of the submissions.

    And if I give you the figures for the number of miracles attributed to Padre Pio you will accept these miracles?


  • #59
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Yes it is. As the majority of the submissions are clearly labelled. Anything that wasn't I ignored.

    ....so its an inaccurate picture, enabling you to carry on sniping.


  • #60
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....so its an inaccurate picture, enabling you to carry on sniping.

    Prove it then.

    You go through the first 5 pages yourself. Lets see how different your "accurate" picture is different to mine. Very little I'd wager.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    And if I give you the figures for the number of miracles attributed to Padre Pio you will accept these miracles?
    Come on, you're just being silly now.

    Miracles attributed to Padre Pio represent an extraordinary claim, as they defy the known laws of nature. Counting the number of submissions under different categories that are published on a website does not result in an extraordinary claim.

    You've done it yourself for random five pages. If you do it for the whole set of things being counted you will get a more accurate figure.

    With the obvious proviso of human error in counting, the outcome of counting all of the submissions is going to be more accurate than any random five-page sample would be.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement