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Cork SRR - Cyclist in Middle Lane

  • 08-12-2013 06:32PM
    #1
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭


    As with most people on here, I absolutely detest Middle Lane Morons. However, what I saw at about 5.45 on Thursday evening was beyond belief.

    It was on the new section between Kinsale and Sarsfield Roundabout heading Westbound. I couldn't at first work out what was going on. 1st lane was going quite slowly. 2nd lane was going at about 15 to 20mph and the 3rd lane was log jammed.

    Eventually I got into the 3rd lane and to my amazement there was a cyclist in the 2nd lane on the SRR. Did anyone else see this. I couldn't believe my eyes. The guy must have had a death wish.

    This brings me to my main point though. On the new section of the SRR there is no hard shoulder. In addition, our planners decided on not putting in a cycle lane on the side of the road. Is it time to have an outright ban on cyclists on the SRR (and also maybe on the South Link Road). It seems to me that it is just too damn dangerous.

    What I simply can't work out though is Cork City Council's preference to put in cycle lanes everywhere. And yet, where they are most needed (South Ring Road) they are ignored. Either put in cycle lanes on the SRR or ban cycling outright.


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Comments

  • #2
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I'm not very familiar with the arrangements, maybe the left lane is for left turns and the cyclist was going straight on? It would be quite dangerous for a cyclist to change lanes thus actually at the point of divergence.

    (The cyclist is as entitled to his bit of road as everyone else btw)


  • #3
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    corktina wrote: »
    I'm not very familiar with the arrangements, maybe the left lane is for left turns and the cyclist was going straight on? It would be quite dangerous for a cyclist to change lanes thus actually at the point of divergence.

    (The cyclist is as entitled to his bit of road as everyone else btw)

    The 1st lane continues over the Sarsfield Roundabout flyover and then turns into an exit which feeds the Bandon Roundabout. Lane 1 would still have been much more sensible.

    If he was taking the exit he'd be the correct lane. If he wasn't he'd have easy access to the hard shoulder which starts when this lane leaves the main line.


  • #4
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    but if he wasn't taking the exit, he'd have to change lanes if he was in lane 1 wouldn't he?

    Why would he need the hard shoulder?


  • #5
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    corktina wrote: »
    but if he wasn't taking the exit, he'd have to change lanes if he was in lane 1 wouldn't he?

    Why would he need the hard shoulder?


    I just don't think that cycling in the middle lane of the SRR, in the dark during rush hour is a good idea. I'd go as far to say its near suicidal.

    There's no hard shoulder in the Jack Lynch Tunnel and thankfully our engineers decided sensibly enough to ban cyclists from cycling through it. Believe it or not, I don't think there's a pedestrian ban on the SRR either.


  • #6
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I could never see why they would ban cyclists just because it's a tunnel. It's just an ordinary road with a roof and hundreds of miles of road have no shoulder.


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  • #7
    AltAccount
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭AltAccount


    Any Google Maps link to tho location?


  • #8
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    https://maps.google.ie/?ll=51.876077,-8.4966&spn=0.000007,0.00523&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.876077,-8.498644&panoid=HKBjctKug8GJaYH1ZIOZpw&cbp=12,280.96,,0,-7.73

    Middle lane in this carriageway


  • #9
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,740 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    There's no hard shoulder in the Jack Lynch Tunnel and thankfully our engineers decided sensibly enough to ban cyclists from cycling through it. Believe it or not, I don't think there's a pedestrian ban on the SRR either.

    that 'ban' is not legal and cyclists are perfectly entitled to use it
    see discussion here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056338421&page=2

    that said it's not exactly a pleasant place to cycle...


  • #10
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    The signs at the tunnel are nothing more than advisory so ?

    Its also shocking to think that even though there isn't a path, there would be no way to bad pedestrians say on the SRR. Surely some provision needs to be made in law for limited access roads. A lot of countries have these alongside Motorways.


  • #11
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,740 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    Its also shocking to think that even though there isn't a path, there would be no way to bad pedestrians say on the SRR. Surely some provision needs to be made in law for limited access roads. A lot of countries have these alongside Motorways.
    why?
    the road is car centric enough already without further restricting the rights of other users.


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  • #12
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    why?
    the road is car centric enough already without further restricting the rights of other users.

    You think a person should be allowed walk along a 3 lane dual carriageway without any hard shoulder ? On a lot of parts of the SRR, a person would actually have to walk in the driving lane.


  • #13
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,740 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    You think a person should be allowed walk along a 3 lane dual carriageway without any hard shoulder ? On a lot of parts of the SRR, a person would actually have to walk in the driving lane.

    Of course they should, whether or not it's a good idea is a slightly different kettle of fish.


  • #14
    wotswattage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 578 ✭✭✭wotswattage


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    It was on the new section between Kinsale and Sarsfield Roundabout heading Westbound. I couldn't at first work out what was going on. 1st lane was going quite slowly. 2nd lane was going at about 15 to 20mph and the 3rd lane was log jammed.

    Eventually I got into the 3rd lane and to my amazement there was a cyclist in the 2nd lane on the SRR. Did anyone else see this. I couldn't believe my eyes. The guy must have had a death wish.

    If the cyclist was in any way a serious one he/she would have no problem matching the speed of the vehicles in the 2nd lane. I'm not 100% sure what you mean about the speed of the other lanes, but maybe the cyclist didn't want to be undertaking :pac::pac:


  • #15
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    Of course they should, whether or not it's a good idea is a slightly different kettle of fish.

    I'd take the more sensible view that the person would have a death wish. And weirdly enough, this has actually happened in the recent past on this stretch of road.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/fatal-road-traffic-collision-in-bishopstown-cork-725796-Dec2012/

    My own view is that walking along this road is many, many times more dangerous than walking along the break down lane of a motorway. However, one is banned and one is not. I'd go as far to say that sleeping a night in the break down lane of a motorway would be safer than walking along this road.


  • #16
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    but it is far more dangerous to walk along an unlit country road . (or to cycle)


  • #17
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,904 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    So, one cyclist was able to hold up three traffic lanes?

    I think that says more about the motorists than one cyclist.


  • #18
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    Victor wrote: »
    So, one cyclist was able to hold up three traffic lanes?

    I think that says more about the motorists than one cyclist.

    It was rush hour. If the cyclist was in the middle lane, that is the middle lane blocked. If you follow the rules of the road, you cannot undertake the cyclist so that is lane 1 also down to the speed of the cyclist. Every motorist was trying to get into lane 3 so that was lane 3 blocked.

    How do you honestly see any other scenario working out ?


  • #19
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    corktina wrote: »
    but it is far more dangerous to walk along an unlit country road . (or to cycle)

    You can at least jump into the hedge row if badly needed or go to the other side of the road.

    In this case you have a hard barrier with no where to go on one side and another busy lane of traffic on the other.


    I simply cannot work out how anyone can condone these actions in terms of road safety.


  • #20
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    And again we witness the lunatic fringe of the cyclist lobby, more concerned with their "rights" than the safety of road users, most especially their own.

    Let's get something straight here: cycling on the middle lane of the SRR at rush hour on a dark winter's evening is beyond lunacy. There should be no debate about this - it's self evident to anyone who uses the road. I suspect that anyone not wide eyed with incredulity at the thought of this cyclist has never driven the SRR, and certainly not at rush hour in the dark. To clarify: the SRR is Cork's version of the M50, and has the traffic to match. It is built to motorway standard along most of its length, most of which has three lanes in each direction. At that location at that hour on a December evening, the road will be a river of red tail lights travelling at 50 - 100 km/h. Sticking a slow moving cyclist slap bang in the middle of this is crazy and a massive hazard. To suggest that this nutter was in any way justified is insane.


  • #21
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    so you'd advocate the cyclist travelling in lane one and then when that peals off to change lanes at that point ? That could be even more dangerous. We aren't talking motorway speeds here.15 to 20 mph is what the OP said I think


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  • #22
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    corktina wrote: »
    so you'd advocate the cyclist travelling in lane one and then when that peals off to change lanes at that point ? That could be even more dangerous. We aren't talking motorway speeds here.15 to 20 mph is what the OP said I think

    No, I'd advocate the cyclist using a route that doesn't come with an automatic high risk of causing a pileup or getting themselves killed. I think it's obvious from the OP that the low speed was due to the motorists being stuck behind the cyclist!


  • #23
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    corktina wrote: »
    so you'd advocate the cyclist travelling in lane one and then when that peals off to change lanes at that point ? That could be even more dangerous. We aren't talking motorway speeds here.15 to 20 mph is what the OP said I think

    No. The closing speed to where the cyclist was, was 100kph or higher for some other road users. The only reason traffic was so slow was due to the cyclist holding 2 lanes of traffic up. In addition, some road users were undertaking the cyclist and others were trying to pull into lane 3. Lane 3 was moving at 100kph and users in lane 2 doing 30kph were trying to pull into lane 3.

    It was a crazy situation and I was thankful afterwards to not hear about the death of any cyclist on the evening news.


  • #24
    PanaDrama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭PanaDrama


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    And again we witness the lunatic fringe of the cyclist lobby, more concerned with their "rights" than the safety of road users, most especially their own.

    Let's get something straight here: cycling on the middle lane of the SRR at rush hour on a dark winter's evening is beyond lunacy. There should be no debate about this - it's self evident to anyone who uses the road. I suspect that anyone not wide eyed with incredulity at the thought of this cyclist has never driven the SRR, and certainly not at rush hour in the dark. To clarify: the SRR is Cork's version of the M50, and has the traffic to match. It is built to motorway standard along most of its length, most of which has three lanes in each direction. At that location at that hour on a December evening, the road will be a river of red tail lights travelling at 50 - 100 km/h. Sticking a slow moving cyclist slap bang in the middle of this is crazy and a massive hazard. To suggest that this nutter was in any way justified is insane.

    Repped.

    I'm genuinely incredulous that anyone could propose this as anything other than incredibly stupid and dangerous.

    Clearly the posters who have come out with this gibberish are either not motorists or are wholly unfamiliar with this stretch of road


  • #25
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    No, I'd advocate the cyclist using a route that doesn't come with an automatic high risk of causing a pileup or getting themselves killed. I think it's obvious from the OP that the low speed was due to the motorists being stuck behind the cyclist!

    That's not what he said at all!..Lane 1 moving slowly, lane 2 15 to 20, lane three nearly stopped.

    What route would you advocate that doesn't run those risks?


  • #26
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    It was on the new section between Kinsale and Sarsfield Roundabout heading Westbound. I couldn't at first work out what was going on. 1st lane was going quite slowly. 2nd lane was going at about 15 to 20mph and the 3rd lane was log jammed.

    Eventually I got into the 3rd lane and to my amazement there was a cyclist in the 2nd lane on the SRR. Did anyone else see this. I couldn't believe my eyes. The guy must have had a death wish.

    This brings me to my main point though. On the new section of the SRR there is no hard shoulder. In addition, our planners decided on not putting in a cycle lane on the side of the road. Is it time to have an outright ban on cyclists on the SRR (and also maybe on the South Link Road). It seems to me that it is just too damn dangerous.



    I had a look on StreetView, and the SRR is not a road I'd cycle on myself.

    I notice your reference to slow-moving or stationary traffic. Is the SRR an important route for people accessing local commercial or residential areas?

    What is the speed limit on that stretch of the SRR, by the way?*


    *EDIT: 100 km/h presumably.


  • #27
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    corktina wrote: »
    That's not what he said at all!..Lane 1 moving slowly, lane 2 15 to 20, lane three nearly stopped.
    OP has clarified that my interpretation is correct - the cyclist was the source of the jam.
    What route would you advocate that doesn't run those risks?
    I have no idea where the cyclist was heading so can't suggest a route. However, pretty much ANY route would have been better, no matter where they were going.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I notice your reference to slow-moving or stationary traffic. Is the SRR an important route for people accessing local commercial or residential areas?
    More commercial than residential (Wilton shopping centre is nearby). However, at that time, I would say that most traffic taking that route would be taking a left a couple of miles of the road to head towards Ballygarvan, Inishannon and Bandon, or going straight through to Ballincollig or beyond to Macroom direction. Also some traffic to residential estates in Wilton and Bishopstown, although this traffic would likely originate in at least Cork City or further east.
    What is the speed limit on that stretch of the SRR, by the way?*


    *EDIT: 100 km/h presumably.
    The Sarsfield Rd and Bandon Rd roundabouts have recently been overpassed (yay!); this section (a bit further west than the OP incident it sounds to me, and not on Google Maps) is still subject to a temporary 60 km/h limit as finishing works (not actually on the dual carriageway) have yet to be completed as the contractor went bust.


  • #28
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    OP has clarified that my interpretation is correct - the cyclist was the source of the jam.

    I have no idea where the cyclist was heading so can't suggest a route. However, pretty much ANY route would have been better, no matter where they were going.

    More commercial than residential (Wilton shopping centre is nearby). However, at that time, I would say that most traffic taking that route would be taking a left a couple of miles of the road to head towards Ballygarvan, Inishannon and Bandon, or going straight through to Ballincollig or beyond to Macroom direction. Also some traffic to residential estates in Wilton and Bishopstown, although this traffic would likely originate in at least Cork City or further east.

    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    1st lane was going quite slowly. 2nd lane was going at about 15 to 20mph and the 3rd lane was log jammed.

    Eventually I got into the 3rd lane and to my amazement there was a cyclist in the 2nd lane on the SRR.




    How can one cyclist hold up three lanes simultaneously? That's just not credible. Even a HGV couldn't do that, unless it was zig-zagging at speed or something.

    Clearly this road is not conducive for cyclists. The route is another matter. What would motivate a cyclist to mix with traffic in this situation? Apart from just being stubborn, what about the cyclist's need for access? I don't know that area, so I can only wonder.


  • #29
    Caliden
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭Caliden


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    How can one cyclist hold up three lanes simultaneously? That's just not credible. Even a HGV couldn't do that, unless it was zig-zagging at speed or something.

    Clearly this road is not conducive for cyclists. The route is another matter. What would motivate a cyclist to mix with traffic in this situation? Apart from just being stubborn, what about the cyclist's need for access? I don't know that area, so I can only wonder.

    Well if the cyclist is going <20kmh in lane 2 on a road where the average speed would be 80-90 kmh then it's hardly unbelievable.

    If a car did the same speed, the outcome would be the same.


  • #30
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the average speed was nothing like that! Not credible as a story.


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  • #31
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    How can one cyclist hold up three lanes simultaneously? That's just not credible.
    Easily credible TBH. You have to picture the road packed with heavy, heavy traffic, moving at a decent clip. Stick a slow moving vehicle in there (tractor, cyclist, whatever) and the sudden huge number of lane change movements causes instant problems and a quick logjam behind, and a massive increase in collision risk. All it takes is one driver coming over the Kinsale Rd flyover (which is humped, without a full line of sight beyond as you approach) not paying attention and you've got a major problem.
    Clearly this road is not conducive for cyclists. The route is another matter. What would motivate a cyclist to mix with traffic in this situation? Apart from just being stubborn, what about the cyclist's need for access? I don't know that area, so I can only wonder.
    For people living in most of the estates in Wilton, Bishopstown and Ballincollig, there are far easier ways to get into town in one piece. Ballincollig (the most far flung of these) in particular has cycle lanes most / all of the way to the city centre. The fact that this incident stands out so much attests to its rarity - simply put, cyclists do not seem to have much reason to use this route, or surely we'd see more of them? (I'm aware that's a bit chicken and egg BTW). I use the SRR daily (the more eastern section) and I would absolutely not expect to see a cyclist at rush hour in the dark. I can honestly not recall EVER seeing one in a driving lane at rush hour, and that's using the road for a decade. If I see cyclists (and it's rare), it would tend to be on a bright weekend morning, and even then it tends to be a group. Again, it needs to be borne in mind that this road is a motorway (and a busy one at that) in all but name.


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