Burka ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not ignoring it; it's irrelevant. People's personal reasons for choosing what clothes they put on their own bodies are exactly that - personal reasons.

What you are forgetting is that there is an actual person behind fully capable of making their own decisions,

While you might not share their beliefs and repect the legitimacy of a religious way of life you have no right to interfere in their personal choices provided they are not causing you any harm.

And aren't we all subject to various influences when it comes to our own personal clothing choices? Should we ban clothes adverts?

Again it's irrelevant. Only Christians wear cassocks. Should we ban them too?

Again, her personal reasons have nothing to do with you. Likewise she has no power over what you can or cannot wear.

Hardly any Muslim women in the West actually wear a burkha.

So either this "conditioning" is not very effective or non-existent..

I personally only know of one woman well who would choose to wear a burqa. She is an ex-atheist, white, blue-eyed, blond haired nurse who met an Iranian doctor while she was working as a nurse with doctors without borders. They married and she later converted. She is completely "western" in every aspect of her life and far from being some little subservient mouse she is for all intents and purposes to boss of the home.

Firstly, I'm not in favour of a ban, so your accusation of me interfering with what someone chooses to wear is unfounded. I think the religious and societal ideology behind burkas/hijabs/niqabs is something which should be discussed and challenged, but I don't think bans are the way to do that.

Secondly, if a mugger comes up to you with a gun, tells you to give him your wallet, watch and phone, is that a choice? Are you choosing to give this man your money and possessions? No, it's a forced, unweighted choice. There are severe negative consequences for one, and minor negative consequences for the other. Lose some money, or be killed.

To me, that's what wearing a burka is (though obviously in a less dramatic sense). Women in Muslim communities or societies face negative consequences for not wearing a burka, not just in terms of how they're treated in those societies, but also the perceived religious consequences. There are negative consequences to actually physically wearing a burka (again, as evident by the fact that women outside those communities never choose to wear them, I ask again if it is a free choice to wear one how come effectively zero percent of women outside those religions do, including as pointed out, numerous Muslim women in Western countries), but those are much less harmful than the consequences of not wearing it.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So, despite you talking about women being "forced" to wear these garments to hide physical abuse you can't provide any evidence of this happening proportionally more in Irish Muslim's homes than non-Muslims?

That was quite the assumption!

Again with the Irish slant. I know we're on an irish forum, but the topic was not about the tiny minority of female Muslims in Ireland of whom I can find very little information, it was about the wider world. And physical abuse was just one example I gave of why the burka would be a negative thing not to mention that the whole problem is that it would hide the beatings. Even if the incidents of Muslim men beating their wives is half of what it is in the rest of the populace, that woman's marks can't be seen as she's never outside without her face covering. That was my point, not a childish attempt at slandering Muslim men.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I think the burqa is a piece of cloth. That is not to say I am not vehemently opposed to anyone being forced to wear/not wear a piece of clothing either due to mob rule or oppressive family members.

With exceptions, work uniforms, school uniforms, prison gear etc.

Calling the burqa a piece of cloth is akin to calling a flag a piece of cloth, or the shroud of turin a piece of cloth. It's technically correct, but you're ignoring the symbolism behind it, which is what's important.

Democracy is a fecking awful idea. It's mob rule. You need a system like a republic (that we have) where minority group's are still protected. In a pure democracy where disabled people number less than able bodied the potential exists for society to legalise mass genocide on them. It's also one of the reasons why having a referendum over a gay's right to marriage is frankly ridiculous.

I wouldn't be allowed to go around with my motorbike helmet on, how is this any different?

Its not even Islamic dress since there is no mention of it in the Koran

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You did. You described perfectly the "tyranny of the majority". That you can't see this is both telling and your own problem.

Yes and yes.


Because we live in a multicultural society where we are all equal and have equal rights. We shouldn't punish people for being different we should learn tolerance, better yet we should educate ourselves on what we irrationally fear to rid ourselves of our prejudices.

Why is it cruel to tell someone that they can't wear something?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It's not about "telling". It's about fining, giving a criminal record to and potentially imprisoning an innocent woman who's only crime is wearing modest clothing that the majority don't want her to wear.

I'd certainly understand calling it 'unjust', but 'cruel' smacks a bit of hyperbole to me.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are still making wild assumptions.
{...}

No, it is not a wild assumption to assume that wife beating happens in Muslim households. I don't think Muslim men are above the foibles of non-Muslim men.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You must have misread something. I never used the term cruel.

'Tyrannical' generally means oppressive and cruel.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Start with your own definition:

a s burqa is not: "worn as a disguise, or to amuse or frighten others"
.

A burqa renders the wearer unidentifiable, therefore it a de facto disguise. If it is merely a garment then so is a balaclava or a bandanna covering the nose and mouth.