Why are the British so anti Europe?

SoulandForm · 24-11-2013 09:08PM

One thing that a lot of people in southern Ireland dont realize is that opposition the EU is not necessarily a right wing thing within the UK. It was "Old Labour" which opposed entry into the Common Market and it was only with the Blairite take over of Labour that its strong "Euro-Skeptic" wing was neutered. NO2EU was a recent enough Leftist electoral alliance. In Northern Ireland where Im from both the TUV and the IRSP and Eirigi are withdrawalists.

micosoft · 24-11-2013 09:16PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Historically the UK mainland has had a much better record on civil liberties than other European countries though this has been under attack starting with Thatcher and if anything excellerating under Blair- continued membership of the EU would see that noble tradition totally crumble with the introduction of ID cards, abolition of innocent until proven guilty, etc. Some things are a lot more valuable than money.

I do think, or at least strongly hope, that the UK will be politely asked to leave in the near future. Its southern Ireland that Im much more worried about- though the UK leaving could well make the elite here rethink their dangerous course.

Says who? I am fascinated about the number of British citizens who claim this but when asked about even the most basic, trivial questions about European continental history in the last 50 years you get silence or bluster. SOME European countries have a worse record then England but MANY countries have a better record. The Nordics, Switzerland, Germany and other states had excellent post WW2 civil rights. I also see you nicely sidestepped civil rights in Northern Ireland by restricting your comment to the island of Great Britain - one of the most significant civil rights movements in the West over the past 50 years was based in Northern Ireland. And the failure of the British Government to address this arguably ignited the conflict up there.

Don't get me wrong - the UK for some things such as Press Freedom, was a bastion of freedom but you really have to have a more open mind then lumping together the Euros as some sort of homogeneous group that looks vaguely French or German and not at all free like blighty.

And all of the initiatives you mention in the last sentence have NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH EUROPE AND ARE ENTIRELY BRITISH PARLIAMENT INITIATIVES. ID CARDS, Changes to arrest protocols and evidence ETC. It's honestly tiresome hearing the same "drop in an untruth in the last sentence and see if people accept it". It's British legislation by British legislators for British people. Nothing at all to do with the EU.

Phoenix One UK · 24-11-2013 09:23PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

One thing that a lot of people in southern Ireland dont realize is that opposition the EU is not necessarily a right wing thing within the UK. It was "Old Labour" which opposed entry into the Common Market and it was only with the Blairite take over of Labour that its strong "Euro-Skeptic" wing was neutered. NO2EU was a recent enough Leftist electoral alliance. In Northern Ireland where Im from both the TUV and the IRSP and Eirigi are withdrawalists.

I recall the second Irish referendum on Lisbon treaty, and I did assist where possible in supplying as much information as I could that was in turn added to information some NO campaigners were handing out. I also know the NO campaign did not get equal air time, and that a number of multi-national corporations put their weight behind the YES campaign.

I recall NO2EU, and quoted from them on some occations here in UK. Right now it is Farage and UKIP that are attracting headlines not to mention being hot favourites to win more seats than LibLabCon trio at coming EU election. They are also already being tipped to win at least 15 seats at next GE in 2015. Have to wait and see if the polls hold true, as in politics even a week is a long time.

The biggest issue at present is immigration. This puts Cameron in a very difficult position, as the EU open border policy is a fundamental part of EU membership.

SoulandForm · 24-11-2013 09:23PM

micosoft wrote: »

Says who? I am fascinated about the number of British citizens who claim this but when asked about even the most basic, trivial questions about European continental history in the last 50 years you get silence or bluster. SOME European countries have a worse record then England but MANY countries have a better record. The Nordics, Switzerland, Germany and other states had excellent post WW2 civil rights. I also see you nicely sidestepped civil rights in Northern Ireland by restricting your comment to the island of Great Britain - one of the most significant civil rights movements in the West over the past 50 years was based in Northern Ireland. And the failure of the British Government to address this arguably ignited the conflict up there.

I said mainland UK-I very well aware that Northern Ireland has been a civil liberties disaster zone since its inception which is part of the reason I support its withdrawal from the UK.

You mentioned Germany having a better civil liberties record? How than do you explain the fact that the Communist Party was illegal in in western half for most of its history, the murder of Ulrike Meinhof and those with her, the tough political censorship or both the left and the right, etc if Germany had such a good record on civil liberties? While the eastern half of Germany has a good record on social justice and religious freedom it was hardly a shining example of civil liberties either.

Than we could talk about the nordic countries and their unconsented sterilizations.....

SoulandForm · 24-11-2013 09:37PM

I will probably vote for UKIP in the European elections (my vote is in Northern Ireland) though I wouldnt give them my first preference. However there is no way that I could vote for them in a Stormount given the sectarian rabble rousing they have been involved in- they could have easily picked up conservative Roman Catholics but instead they choose to beat the Orange drum so I do admit some hostility to them.

Mass immigration has been used in England in order on side undermine its Christian hertitage and on the other to divide the working class; neither of things I see as good. EU membership has had massive effects on southern Ireland not least of which has been mass immigration; luckily their have been no growth of groups like the BNP, but the sinister intent to divide people on the basis of "culture" will show sooner or later.

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

I recall the second Irish referendum on Lisbon treaty, and I did assist where possible in supplying as much information as I could that was in turn added to information some NO campaigners were handing out. I also know the NO campaign did not get equal air time, and that a number of multi-national corporations put their weight behind the YES campaign.

I recall NO2EU, and quoted from them on some occations here in UK. Right now it is Farage and UKIP that are attracting headlines not to mention being hot favourites to win more seats than LibLabCon trio at coming EU election. They are also already being tipped to win at least 15 seats at next GE in 2015. Have to wait and see if the polls hold true, as in politics even a week is a long time.

The biggest issue at present is immigration. This puts Cameron in a very difficult position, as the EU open border policy is a fundamental part of EU membership.

SoulandForm · 24-11-2013 09:43PM

There are masses of things I disagree with Sean Gabb, for instance Im a Socialist and a Pan-Celticist while he is a British Unionist and a Libertarian but what he says here is incredibly insightful of what has happened to the UK in no small part through EU membership.

Phoenix One UK · 24-11-2013 09:45PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

I will probably vote for UKIP in the European elections (my vote is in Northern Ireland) though I wouldnt give them my first preference. However there is no way that I could vote for them in a Stormount given the sectarian rabble rousing they have been involved in- they could have easily picked up conservative Roman Catholics but instead they choose to beat the Orange drum so I do admit some hostility to them.

Mass immigration has been used in England in order on side undermine its Christian hertitage and on the other to divide the working class; neither of things I see as good. EU membership has had massive effects on southern Ireland not least of which has been mass immigration; luckily their have been no growth of groups like the BNP, but the sinister intent to divide people on the basis of "culture" will show sooner or later.

It has always been my position that people should vote for who best represents their views. To do otherwise would be a wasted vote.

There was a publication entitled "The folly of Mass Immigration", which is freely available in PDF format on web and well worth a read.

Note following from The Times dated 22 Nov 2013

Cheap labour in France ‘fuels far-right support’

David Chazan Paris

Unquote.

The introduction of mass immigration and people across borders is insane. Public services cannot cope with such, and not just here in UK.

Have to go. Nice chatting with you. regards.

micosoft · 24-11-2013 10:02PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

I said mainland UK-I very well aware that Northern Ireland has been a civil liberties disaster zone since its inception which is part of the reason I support its withdrawal from the UK.

That seems to be a bit of a curates egg there. UK is great except for....

SoulandForm wrote: »

You mentioned Germany having a better civil liberties record? How than do you explain the fact that the Communist Party was illegal in in western half for most of its history,

The Communist Party wanted to end democracy and merge with East Germany. The Nazi party was also banned.... is that an affront to civil rights too?

SoulandForm wrote: »

the murder of Ulrike Meinhof and those with her, the tough political censorship or both the left and the right, etc if Germany had such a good record on civil liberties? While the eastern half of Germany has a good record on social justice and religious freedom it was hardly a shining example of civil liberties either.

She committed suicide. I was not talking about East Germany which was clearly a police state.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Than we could talk about the nordic countries and their unconsented sterilizations.....

Sweden. Not Norway or Finland or Denmark or Iceland.

I think we could go on and on about individual cases in different countries. I am stating that the UK was not the shining light for human rights you have made it out to be with Europe in the Dark Ages. Include NI and the UK has one of the worse records for a western democracy. As I stated before - some aspects such as the free press (even including the ban on SF and the Spycatcher affair) was and is excellent. But the UK is not the exemplar of freedom you believe. Freedom of information for example is something the UK came to very late and Sweden led.

And my fundamental point is that Europe is not encroaching on your freedom. Your own government is.

SoulandForm · 24-11-2013 10:07PM

micosoft wrote: »

That seems to be a bit of a curates egg there. UK is great except for....

The Communist Party wanted to end democracy and merge with East Germany. The Nazi party was also banned.... is that an affront to civil rights too?

She committed suicide. I was not talking about East Germany which was clearly a police state.

Yes of course the Nazi Party and not only that but the Swaztika itself and historical discussion of the holocaust are an affront to civil liberties.

The Communist Party did not want to abolish "democracy"- look at its program from the time.

Are you really so sure she and those with her committed suicide? Thats like saying Gerry Adams was never in the IRA or British intelligence were not involved in the Dublin bombing.

View · 24-11-2013 11:36PM

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

Please note following I posted within another forum that I blieve relevant to debate here, of which I am the auther.

Let us recap and expand on what cannot be disputed.

.....

7. The UK has always had a trade deficit with EU since joining the Common Market in 1973.
8. Most goods originate from world not EU.

Your point 7 is wrong and misleading as well. According to UK statistics going back to 1946 the UK has almost always had trade deficits, so it is little to do with the UK's EU membership. Second, they show the UK having had trade surpluses (in goods & services) in 13 years since the UK joined the EU (3 years if we exclude services).

As for point 8 it is unclear what you are referring to but the figures show that for trade in goods, the EU has consistently accounted for 50-55% of the UK's imports over the decades.

To set it in context a bit, the PIGS EU member states are more important to the UK than the BRIC countries, for all the sneering at the former and hyping of the latter.

Banjoxed · 24-11-2013 11:40PM

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

The above was aquired and extracted from EUoObservor.com. For entire article just copy the headline in Google or other search engine.

I believe it goes off topic a bit, but I believe it does raise some points that Ireland should consider. Is Ireland realy better off in EZ?

I know Greece would be better off defaulting and reverting back to ts original currency.

Reverting to a wholly independent Irish Pound would equal toilet currency time. A few carpetbaggers would do okay while the rest of us would be fecked. I'd turn my Euros into Sterling if I got wind of that particular disaster happening.

Phoenix One UK · 25-11-2013 01:03AM

View wrote: »

Your point 7 is wrong and misleading as well. According to UK statistics going back to 1946 the UK has almost always had trade deficits, so it is little to do with the UK's EU membership. Second, they show the UK having had trade surpluses (in goods & services) in 13 years since the UK joined the EU (3 years if we exclude services).

As for point 8 it is unclear what you are referring to but the figures show that for trade in goods, the EU has consistently accounted for 50-55% of the UK's imports over the decades.

To set it in context a bit, the PIGS EU member states are more important to the UK than the BRIC countries, for all the sneering at the former and hyping of the latter.

The point was made within another forum that I am a member, and have been for some years, and it was a point I supportted with direct link to Parliament records itself. Hence. I must disagree with you.

Phoenix One UK · 25-11-2013 01:09AM

Banjoxed wrote: »

Reverting to a wholly independent Irish Pound would equal toilet currency time. A few carpetbaggers would do okay while the rest of us would be fecked. I'd turn my Euros into Sterling if I got wind of that particular disaster happening.

Putting Ireland aside, I will refer Greece. The only winning move it has ever had was to ditch the euro and default. It certainly could not be any worst that what they are currently going through, and countries have defaullted and recovered by doing exactly that, which includes even the UK. As it stands Greece is in limbo, and have few assets left to sell.

There is no way Greece can ever pay back the bailout. Anyone that says otherwise is deluding themselves.

View · 25-11-2013 11:04AM

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

The point was made within another forum that I am a member, and have been for some years, and it was a point I supportted with direct link to Parliament records itself. Hence. I must disagree with you.

I am using records from the House of Commons itself.

The relevant stats you can find as follows:
Trade in Goods & Services Table 3 P13&14
Trade in Goods Table 1 P11
Trade in Goods with EU P19 last columns
Points about PIGS Vs BRICs P7 bullet points 5&6

Here's the link: http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06211

It would appear your disagreement is with the House of Commons' figures not me.

View · 25-11-2013 11:13AM

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

It certainly could not be any worst that what they are currently going through,

It almost certainly would have been worse for them since a default would have meant their cutbacks would have been worse than what they have had. There is a fundamental difference between the government providing, let's say, a worse education system and providing none at all as they are forced to balance their books overnight after a default.

dlouth15 · 25-11-2013 01:10PM

View wrote: »

It almost certainly would have been worse for them since a default would have meant their cutbacks would have been worse than what they have had. There is a fundamental difference between the government providing, let's say, a worse education system and providing none at all as they are forced to balance their books overnight after a default.

They are likely to return a primary budget surplus this year. They had a small primary deficit of about 1% last year.

Phoenix One UK · 25-11-2013 04:56PM

View wrote: »

I am using records from the House of Commons itself.

The relevant stats you can find as follows:
Trade in Goods & Services Table 3 P13&14
Trade in Goods Table 1 P11
Trade in Goods with EU P19 last columns
Points about PIGS Vs BRICs P7 bullet points 5&6

Here's the link: http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06211

It would appear your disagreement is with the House of Commons' figures not me.

On the contrary. Your link fails to factor in exports to, say, Ireland. Ireland had even been quoted as being one of Britain's largest export market from a few europhiles, which was one reason leading me to write my own article.

I too was once an exporter (software) while resident in Australia. I would send products to China via India. But that is not how the statistics would show it. To simplify, when comparing the population of Britain against Ireland, I trust you do not consider ireland to be Britain's largest export market? It was just a shipping point for many exports.

Phoenix One UK · 25-11-2013 05:02PM

View wrote: »

It almost certainly would have been worse for them since a default would have meant their cutbacks would have been worse than what they have had. There is a fundamental difference between the government providing, let's say, a worse education system and providing none at all as they are forced to balance their books overnight after a default.

Have you seriously been keeping up to date with events in Greece? Families are even giving up their children because they cannot feed them. Then compare that to say Iceland. They went bust too, and defaulted. Look at them now.

ewan whose army · 25-11-2013 08:39PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

One thing that a lot of people in southern Ireland dont realize is that opposition the EU is not necessarily a right wing thing within the UK. It was "Old Labour" which opposed entry into the Common Market and it was only with the Blairite take over of Labour that its strong "Euro-Skeptic" wing was neutered. NO2EU was a recent enough Leftist electoral alliance. In Northern Ireland where Im from both the TUV and the IRSP and Eirigi are withdrawalists.

After UKIP the biggest group against the UK "NO 2 EU" are left wing socialists. Its to the point where the original founder of UKIP horrified at how his party was hijacked by the right created a left wing party in the old labour vain.

Scofflaw · 26-11-2013 01:26AM

Phoenix One UK wrote: »

On the contrary. Your link fails to factor in exports to, say, Ireland. Ireland had even been quoted as being one of Britain's largest export market from a few europhiles, which was one reason leading me to write my own article.

I too was once an exporter (software) while resident in Australia. I would send products to China via India. But that is not how the statistics would show it. To simplify, when comparing the population of Britain against Ireland, I trust you do not consider ireland to be Britain's largest export market? It was just a shipping point for many exports.

How is Ireland a 'shipping port for many exports'? It applies to Belgium (although the difference is moot because Belgium would be the port of entry for much of the Continent), but what UK products are supposed to be shipped via Ireland, and to where? And, most cogently perhaps, why?

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlouth15 · 26-11-2013 07:11AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

How is Ireland a 'shipping port for many exports'? It applies to Belgium (although the difference is moot because Belgium would be the port of entry for much of the Continent), but what UK products are supposed to be shipped via Ireland, and to where? And, most cogently perhaps, why?

cordially,

Scofflaw

Sorry to but in here but I'm not sure he's talking about a physical "port" like that in Antwerp. He doesn't use that word in his post but rather "point".

ewan whose army · 26-11-2013 09:40AM

Just a side point, a lot of people are getting riled up about this from outside the UK.

Fact of the matter its up for the UK citizens to decide, if they ever vote to pull out then the EU has to honour it, even it does will it really effect Ireland and other countries?

The biggest effected countries will be the ones in East Europe I guess

georgesstreet · 26-11-2013 10:33AM

ewan whose army wrote: »

Fact of the matter its up for the UK citizens to decide, if they ever vote to pull out then the EU has to honour it, even it does will it really effect Ireland and other countries?

Surely the standard procedure in the past has been to "respect the vote and democracy", and then force them to vote again until they vote the correct way?

I agree it is curious how Irish people seem to get very heated about the UK and have such strong opinions.

oscarBravo · 26-11-2013 10:55AM

georgesstreet wrote: »

Surely the standard procedure in the past has been to "respect the vote and democracy", and then force them to vote again until they vote the correct way?

I'm not aware of anyone being forced to vote at all, never mind being forced to vote again.

ewan whose army · 26-11-2013 11:15AM

georgesstreet wrote: »

Surely the standard procedure in the past has been to "respect the vote and democracy", and then force them to vote again until they vote the correct way?

I agree it is curious how Irish people seem to get very heated about the UK and have such strong opinions.

Well I am a UK citizen and yes if there is a referendum I will vote at the embassy as an expat, but I will vote to remain in.

My point is that all this scaremongering from places like France, Germany and Ireland over a UK pull out is just going to make people like UKIP look better when they can spin it as foreigners messing with K democracy.

Its likely the UK will vote to remain in IMO, but I don't think an approach similar to the Irish Lisbon referendum will be the right reaction. I mean it was voted out in a referendum that should have been the end of it, you can't go and force another referendum to get the opinion you want. One of the reasons why there is an anti-EU sentiment was due to the fact Lisbon was pushed through without any public consultation, opinion polls showed it would have been rejected and two EU countries rejecting would force them to re-do it and probably made the EU better than it is now.

When people say the EU is anti-democratic I can understand thats where they are coming from. Not saying I agree but I understand the argument, it is valid.

oscarBravo · 26-11-2013 11:40AM

ewan whose army wrote: »

My point is that all this scaremongering from places like France, Germany and Ireland over a UK pull out is just going to make people like UKIP look better when they can spin it as foreigners messing with K democracy.

Because it's not like UKIP ever expressed an opinion on a referendum campaign in another member state.

I mean it was voted out in a referendum that should have been the end of it, you can't go and force another referendum to get the opinion you want.

Again with the talk of forcing referendums. Who forced anyone to hold a referendum, never mind forcing anyone to vote in one?

georgesstreet · 26-11-2013 11:51AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not aware of anyone being forced to vote at all, never mind being forced to vote again.

Nor am I.

georgesstreet · 26-11-2013 11:56AM

ewan whose army wrote: »

Its likely the UK will vote to remain in IMO, but I don't think an approach similar to the Irish Lisbon referendum will be the right reaction. I mean it was voted out in a referendum that should have been the end of it, you can't go and force another referendum to get the opinion you want. .

Of course, you can and did, as history shows us. I don't believe it would be possible to do that if the UK referendum were to vote to exit the EU, as to do so might be the trigger for civil unrest as feelings run very high on the issue in the UK.

In fact, there are few countries so passive as Ireland who tolerated that in the past, and to attempt to rerun a referendum because it came up with the "wrong" answer in France, or Italy, or Greece would lead to riots and civil unrest. Why Ireland was so passive remains an enduring mystery.

oscarBravo · 26-11-2013 12:02PM

georgesstreet wrote: »

Of course, you can and did, as history shows us.

Who forced a referendum?

georgesstreet · 26-11-2013 12:09PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Who forced a referendum?

Presumably your point is that the Irish government was under no pressure whatever from the EU or anyone else. As you don't say it's hard to know,and if that is your view, then its a valid view.

I am not sure many would agree with that if it is your view, but its a valid view nonetheless.

Why are the British so anti Europe?

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