No place for child in local school

Bustle · 19-11-2013 04:08PM #1

My grandaughter born April 2010 has been refused a place in her "5 minutes away from her home" Primary school in the Cabinteely area, apparently on the grounds of "no place available" and advised that there may be a "cancellation" place at Easter. Her parents moved to the area in July 2013 and immediately signed an application following a visit to the school and a meeting with Principal. There is no explanation in the letter and no advice for most anxious parents as to what they should do. My grandaughter is a happy preschooler since the beginning of this preschool year and her fellow preschoolers have been granted places in the local Primary. I notice that there was a lot of discussion of this problem in 2006/7 but cannot find which if any forum it is still rattling along on. In C My grandaughter born April 2010 has been refused a place in her "5 minutes away from her home" Primary school in the Cabinteely area, apparently on the grounds of "no place available" and advised that there may be a "cancellation" place at Easter. Her parents moved to the area in July 2013 and immediately signed an application following a visit to the school and a meeting with Principal. There is no explanation in the letter and no advice for most anxious parents as to what they should do. My grandaughter is a happy preschooler since the beginning of this preschool year and her fellow preschoolers have been granted places in the local Primary. I notice that this issue was rattling on in 2006/7 but cannot locate a more recent Forum/discussion. In Cabinteely this is a live issue!
Advice would be most welcome

January · 19-11-2013 04:22PM

Moved to Primary & Pre School from Parenting.

January · 19-11-2013 04:27PM

A child is not entitled to a place in the closest school, my suggestion is they start looking further away if the other school is over subscribed, but don't refuse to be put on the waiting list because if a place comes up then they could still accept it.

Some people have kids names down for schools since birth, it's luck of the draw whether they get a place or not.

Bustle · 19-11-2013 05:12PM

Dear January/Moderator,
Thanks for guiding my stumbling steps.
About the matter in question, I am still confused. I realise that a child is not entitled to a place in the closest school - but rational social/educational planning ought to be prodded into action to reduce such children to the minimum year by year.
Is there a shortage of "admission places available for 2014 Sept Primary Schools" in Cabinteely and/or elsewhere in Dublin? Where would one access such vital information?
What is the definition of "oversubscribed"? Is it AFTER siblings, baptismal cerificate holders (denomination not indicated), teachers' children (why?), children inside the parish area, (how does one prove parish definition/boundaries on a suburban map?) - or somewhere ALONG this line that my grandaughter finds herself? If my grandaughter is not being schooled appropriately by the time she is six will the legal authorities find a place for her and how?
You see, what I would really like to know is this:
Is there a clearly established unavailability of 2014 Primary Adminssion Places in parts of this country?
Who is primarily responsible for establishing this shortage in individual Primary Schools and what section of the Department of Education is collating this information and what is the Department's policy on the matter and what are its' timelines for bringing this policy into effect.

byhookorbycrook · 19-11-2013 06:22PM

Bustle wrote: »

Dear January/Moderator,
Thanks for guiding my stumbling steps.
About the matter in question, I am still confused. I realise that a child is not entitled to a place in the closest school - but rational social/educational planning ought to be prodded into action to reduce such children to the minimum year by year.
Who is primarily responsible for establishing this shortage in individual Primary Schools and what section of the Department of Education is collating this information and what is the Department's policy on the matter and what are its' timelines for bringing this policy into effect.

The DES is ultimately at fault.

Bustle · 19-11-2013 06:47PM

Dear byhookorbycrook,
Yes probably right about the DES.
Governments are like birds.
They repond to noise.
Lots of it.
Loud.

Moonbeam · 19-11-2013 08:40PM

It is a common issue in many areas.
Is there only 1 local school?

I have a 20 mile round trip twice a day and my little one was 14 months old when I put her name down in the school we purposely bought our house beside,but she did not get a place.

They will be offering places up until Sept so she should find out where they are on the list and hope:)

downthemiddle · 19-11-2013 11:52PM

Bustle wrote: »

My grandaughter born April 2010 has been refused a place in her "5 minutes away from her home" Primary school in the Cabinteely area, apparently on the grounds of "no place available" and advised that there may be a "cancellation" place at Easter. Her parents moved to the area in July 2013 and immediately signed an application following a visit to the school and a meeting with Principal. There is no explanation in the letter and no advice for most anxious parents as to what they should do. My grandaughter is a happy preschooler since the beginning of this preschool year and her fellow preschoolers have been granted places in the local Primary. I notice that there was a lot of discussion of this problem in 2006/7 but cannot find which if any forum it is still rattling along on. In C My grandaughter born April 2010 has been refused a place in her "5 minutes away from her home" Primary school in the Cabinteely area, apparently on the grounds of "no place available" and advised that there may be a "cancellation" place at Easter. Her parents moved to the area in July 2013 and immediately signed an application following a visit to the school and a meeting with Principal. There is no explanation in the letter and no advice for most anxious parents as to what they should do. My grandaughter is a happy preschooler since the beginning of this preschool year and her fellow preschoolers have been granted places in the local Primary. I notice that this issue was rattling on in 2006/7 but cannot locate a more recent Forum/discussion. In Cabinteely this is a live issue!
Advice would be most welcome

The shool should have issued the parents with a copy of their enrolment policy, the grounds for the refusal and informed the parents of their right to appeal the decision. If the school have not done so the parents will win any appeal.

wolfpawnat · 19-11-2013 11:58PM

Bustle, I am in the same area, there are several schools nearby in Cabinteely, Johnstown, Ballybrack, Killiney and Loughlinstown. I am technically in Cabinteely district, but went to Ballybrack for the Gaelscoil.

Bustle · 20-11-2013 02:27PM

Dear All,
I seem to be latched in to two(at least) fora. PRIMARY & PRESCHOOL and PARENTING

One of them got entangled in the Gaeilscoil/language policy. This explains my next two paragraphs.

In my lifetime you could not get into University in this country without a Pass in Leaving Cert Latin.
Take a deep breath and ask yourself who benefited from that arrangement which ended in 60's. Someone will tell me when, exactly.

At this present juncture - I am not interested in "the language" - except to the extent that innocently or not it is being used to cloud the main problems from view and delay action as far as possible - see below.

Yes, we have the School Policy doc. The letter did not indicate at which hurdle my granddaughter fell, nor any place she might have on a Waiting List. Nor did it supply a list of neighbouring schools which I imagine Primary Schools have on file which would assist hard pressed parents. Thanks January., I will advise the parents to write back and accept the unidentified Waiting Place - good advice. No Downthe middle -- there was no mention of an Appeal. Regarding the Waiting List - is it not correct that schools have been advised/ instructed to deal with applications only from the October preceeding the admission year i.e. 2013 Oct for 2014 Sept?

Like the late Christina Murphy - I favour "the neighbourhood school " - particularly for Primary

I visualise current Irish Primary School Admission Policy as a large unwieldy parcel lumbering along festooned with dirty, frayed, multicoloured, labelled ribbons streeling along in its' wake. I list a selection, unordered.

Parental Convenience
Religious Power
Social Position
School Income
Cultural Values
Children's Diet/Physique
School Administration/Control
Balanced Curricula
Teaching Standards
Poorly Funded Teaching Upskilling
Staff Morale
Overloaded Administrators

The same ribbons are around our own necks.
The effect is to hamper any effort that has a prospect of improving the situation in a rat's nest of entanglement which, innocently or not, serves to delay action as much as possible.

And we pay for it all, week by week, day by day
Bustle is online now Report Post

Moonbeam · 20-11-2013 10:37PM

No, they new enrollment policies will not come in to effect for a few years yet.
Was there no mention of a section 29 appeal on any of the documentation?
If the school sticks to their enrollment policy then there is little that can be down.
I would bare in mind that they did apply to the school very late.

If you feel that strongly about the general admission policy of primary schools then look at private schools as well,Montessori primary schools have an excellent teaching method and good track record. We have a local one but we wanted our ids educated as gaeilge and having 4 in primary school at once when I am at home would have been a huge financial constraint.

Bustle · 25-11-2013 03:48PM

Dear All,
I went to a meeting at Sachs/ Hampton Hotel Dublin last week dealing with these matters. Addressed, amongst others, by an Ass Sec DES. The proposed Schools Bill will take years. I got the impression, however, that draft Regulations on Admission Process might be coming in a bit faster. DES seems to have no particular sense of direction as to what to do about multiple enrollments and parents who do not cancel unwanted acceptances. To my mind, the child's acceptance letter from the School (which should include the child's name, date of birth and PPS no) should be copied to designated section in DES and should indicate that the Acceptance will fall if not confirmed in a very short space of time. This would at least make a start on the multiple acceptance mess. Still no source of figures on over/under supply of places for Infants in the Dublin area. I suspect DES's info systems are an antiquated model.
With regards to private education possibilities, I am personally committed to a free education system at least to 17/18 - but remember my grandchilds parents may think differently!

Anyone committed to education in the Irish language will be staggered to learn that DES is considering the following Regulation on the Admission Process
"Draft Reg 20 It shall not be permissible, except in accordance with Reg 21 for schools to interview parents or students as part of the school admission policy"
Section 21 deals with Boarding Schools!

So - how to establish how fluent Irish in family life will be if you cannot "interview" parents - just as one example. "The man from the Ministry" had no coherant answer.

wolfpawnat · 25-11-2013 03:56PM

Bustle wrote: »

Dear All,
I went to a meeting at Sachs/ Hampton Hotel Dublin last week dealing with these matters. Addressed, amongst others, by an Ass Sec DES. The proposed Schools Bill will take years. I got the impression, however, that draft Regulations on Admission Process might be coming in a bit faster. DES seems to have no particular sense of direction as to what to do about multiple enrollments and parents who do not cancel unwanted acceptances. To my mind, the child's acceptance letter from the School (which should include the child's name, date of birth and PPS no) should be copied to designated section in DES and should indicate that the Acceptance will fall if not confirmed in a very short space of time. This would at least make a start on the multiple acceptance mess. Still no source of figures on over/under supply of places for Infants in the Dublin area. I suspect DES's info systems are an antiquated model.
With regards to private education possibilities, I am personally committed to a free education system at least to 17/18 - but remember my grandchilds parents may think differently!

Anyone committed to education in the Irish language will be staggered to learn that DES is considering the following Regulation on the Admission Process
"Draft Reg 20 It shall not be permissible, except in accordance with Reg 21 for schools to interview parents or students as part of the school admission policy"
Section 21 deals with Boarding Schools!

So - how to establish how fluent Irish in family life will be if you cannot "interview" parents - just as one example. "The man from the Ministry" had no coherant answer.

My son goes to a gaelscoil. There were no interviews, no one was interviewed. It was a case of me asking if they had space, when they said yes, I was asked would I like to see it, I agreed. The principal explained they were a gaelscoil and they would be happy to take my son as long as I accepted that. I was not asked for a baptismal cert, though they say they are a Catholic Ethos school, but they are happy to make exceptions for children of other beliefs. The school acknowledged that 90% of the kids had no Irish at all at home, but I have to say, the kids had fantastic Irish from just using it in school.

Bustle · 25-11-2013 04:12PM

Dear All,
Forgot to mention, I think the DES man said that there were 159 Section 29 Appeals against Refusal to Enrol. I could not establish over what period. 23 were granted. I got the impression that most of the appeals were related to Special Needs. One Special Needs child took 22 Appeals and won - in the end! Poor DES man could not relate this case to his statistics if you follow me. DES man admitted that "Oversubscription" (lovely, that term - you have to think what it actually means) translates into 20% of primary schools having an "oversubscription issue". He thinks that the issue and Section 29 Appeals related to it will be greatly reduced by new proposals. He made a reference to "oversubscribed schools must give last year's data" but it was not clear to whom or when. There were 16 contributions from the floor. One was energetic and vigorous but very muddled because the questioner thought that the terms parents and siblings meant the same thing. What bothers me about this, is that I formed the impression that the very well meaning and mature speaker was a teacher! The Section 29 people are at an address in Tullamore or Mullingar depending which gov. Web you access
I've also seen mention of the National Education Welfare Board at Green St in Dublin who, acc. to DES, deal with difficulties around school addmission - but seem to my eye, to have nothing to say about "Oversubscription" in their cheery, well documented site!

Bustle · 25-11-2013 04:19PM

Dear Wolfpawnat,
What a relly good experience you had - that is how it could be for a lot more parents, I feel sure. Many Gaelscoileanna are "oversubscribed" I gather, and so the question of domestic/family fluency comes in.

wolfpawnat · 25-11-2013 04:26PM

Bustle wrote: »

Dear Wolfpawnat,
What a relly good experience you had - that is how it could be for a lot more parents, I feel sure. Many Gaelscoileanna are "oversubscribed" I gather, and so the question of domestic/family fluency comes in.

The one in Ballybrack is if you have siblings there, you are a bit of a shoe-in, but overall, first come first served. My son is in the largest class in the school. There are only 21 in total. It is because so many schools around here. That's why I find it odd your family cannot get your granddaughter into one. Though Cabinteely fills very quickly, as does Johnstown NS.

Bustle · 25-11-2013 04:39PM

ANd Another Thing!
Some Acceptance Letters may be accompanied by Informational material about Voluntary Donations which sometimes indicate multiples of years for which Voluntary Donations may be prepaid.
While I was still recovering the "Man from the Ministry" raised his tired head to affirm that "he had personally dealth with a case in the north midlands where a Primary School had accumulated some many thousands of Euro in this way".
While I was still gasping a teacher beside me pointed out that "there is no legal prohibition, Mrs".
The last time I heard of anything remotely like this was in 19th century letters from a widely reviled estate owner who writes to his sister expressing his outrage that his hard-fisted agent is demanding personal payments from those tenants to whom the landlord has granted new leases. The landlord in his position as a Peer was planning to propose an Act of Parliament to outlaw this practice on the grounds that "A vendor was proporting to sell good to which he had no legal right" or something of that nature.
What on earth motivates people to pressurize fellow citizens in such a way in the 21st Century

wolfpawnat · 25-11-2013 04:45PM

Bustle wrote: »

ANd Another Thing!
Some Acceptance Letters may be accompanied by Informational material about Voluntary Donations which sometimes indicate multiples of years for which Voluntary Donations may be prepaid.
While I was still recovering the "Man from the Ministry" raised his tired head to affirm that "he had personally dealth with a case in the north midlands where a Primary School had accumulated some many thousands of Euro in this way".
While I was still gasping a teacher beside me pointed out that "there is no legal prohibition, Mrs".
The last time I heard of anything remotely like this was in 19th century letters from a widely reviled estate owner who writes to his sister expressing his outrage that his hard-fisted agent is demanding personal payments from those tenants to whom the landlord has granted new leases. The landlord in his position as a Peer was planning to propose an Act of Parliament to outlaw this practice on the grounds that "A vendor was proporting to sell good to which he had no legal right" or something of that nature.
What on earth motivates people to pressurize fellow citizens in such a way in the 21st Century

Yeah, my son's school ask for 75 a year, I don't give it, going to school is expensive enough. I paid out €300 in September for books, uniform, Irish dancing, Arts & Crafts, etc. But I do bake stuff for the school bake sale days for funding, but that's just me.

Glinda · 25-11-2013 04:49PM

Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand the issue here. When a school is full, it is full! They have to have a formal enrolment policy which sets out the order in which places are allocated to applicants and this is available to parents in advance - what do you expect them to do when there are no places left - continue to take kids and squash them all in anyway?

If they haven't followed the policy then their decision can be appealed, but if they have and you are just too late to get a place then I'm afraid you either have to wait your turn or else choose another school. Conspiracy theories are a little premature here, moving in to an area in the summer and then expecting a place to be made available in the school of choice in September (where that school is oversubscribed in terms of demand) is a little unrealistic - again I wonder what it is that you are expecting the school to do?

mitosis · 25-11-2013 04:54PM

OP, have any other schools been approached? Or is it a case of Cabinteely or nowhere?

Bustle · 26-11-2013 04:19PM

Glinda and mitosis,
Yes, requests for admission in Sept 2014 are now being made to "further away" schools.
No. I do not think that a PRIMARY school should be forced to take ALL COMERS and overfill classes. I do think that the current situation is chaotic. I believe the following to be true:
1. Parents, when they are accepted in the school they might have preferred, do not always inform those other schools to which they applied that the sought after place is no longer needed.
2. Schools, even the "oversubscribed" sometimes reach the beginning of the school year with empty places, as a result of this discourtesy!
3. Parents, not surprisingly, are reputed to be faking addresses and may even be "borrowing" Baptismal Certs in order to secure a place in a desired school.
4. Children are being recorded as subscribing to the Roman Catholic faith in order to ensure a place in a desired school - and for no other reason. I do not think that this is right - but I do not know how it is to be avoided. DES and its predecessors have ignored a huge problem, hoping that parents would muddle through . . . and so parents do the best they can.
5. Parents get annual letters regarding Voluntary Donations. Worse still, parents get Acceptance Letters which enclose or accompany Multi- year Voluntary Donations material. DES deplores these and related activities - but show no sign of doing anything effective about the situation.
6. DES is trying to discourage "putting your child down for school/s" as soon as its sex is established in the DRAFT REGULATIONS ON ADMISSION PROCESS (13 pages) There are two further drafts of 10 and 35 pages Regulation and Policy from DES, by the way.
7.It would be very useful if DES published some annual data - such as "oversubscription" as it is teasingly called - by Post Code in Dublin for example. If it published by school - this might have the effect of making the problem worse! It would be useful if "undersubscription" which is never mentioned, was published in a similar way.
5. Preferred Primary schools are usually so because "a place is guaranteed" in a desired Secondary School. I do not know to what extent the admission policy of non-fee-paying or fee paying secondary schools is governed by national policy expressed through DES. I suspect that it reflects the Primary "subscription"situation.
6.Parents often "solve the problem" by using huge private initiative and enthusiasm. This is part of the energy behind the development of Educate Together and Gaelscoileanna (the varieties of spelling ???) and even Home Schooling not to mention the parental energy and money invested in Special Needs children. One gets the the impression that public opinion sits, nodding its' approval - hands clasped.

If at all possible a 4/5 year old should be going to the local school with the neighbours' children. That is not an unreasonable goal, I think.
You see, we build the schools these days. We maintain, repair and equip the schools. We pay for the education of the teachers, for the main part, particularly in the Primary sector and for their necessary on the job retraining. We pay the teachers, salary and pension. We pay the people in DES and related regulatory bodies salary and pension and many specialised contracted advisers associated with education.

We deserve better

seavill · 26-11-2013 05:28PM

Just to comment on no5

Publicly the des deplore this activity. Have you wondered why they do nothing about this?? Because this is what is keeping schools afloat.

The government don't fund schools properly. Without the voluntary donations in the majority of schools they would most likely have to close. These donations pay for the running if the school, repairs etc. Summer works grants stopped the last few years. To restart this year. How do you think the leak in the roof, broken lights etc get fixed.

Schools are run by boards of management which have parents reps on them. It's not that's its a little top up for the teachers salary.

The majority of your points start and stop with the des. Not the principal or teachers or individual school.

That is where you should focus your anger

paleo muinteoir · 27-11-2013 08:42PM

Bustle wrote: »

You see, we build the schools these days. We maintain, repair and equip the schools. We pay for the education of the teachers, for the main part, particularly in the Primary sector and for their necessary on the job retraining. We pay the teachers, salary and pension.

As a primary school teacher, I MASSIVELY resent this!
'You' did not pay for my training. I shelled out (upwards of 10k) for this and am still paying for it. You do not pay for my retraining. Teachers often undertake courses for retraining / upskilling purposes over the summer. We pay for these out of our own pockets.
Also, you do not pay my salary. My salary (which is very little, as a fairly newly qualified teacher) is paid from the public coffers - as are many many other things, various salaries included. I'm not sure exactly what manner of ownership you are intimating that 'you' have over us as a result. Do you feel the same way about the gardaí? the firemen?

We are so much more than just teachers ......
We are confidantes to wipe a child's tears
We are bankers who collect money for a million different things
We are both counsellors and psychologists to problem-filled children
We are police officers who control children gone wild
We are librarians unveiling the adventures that books bring
We are custodians who must often clean up certain little messes
We are psychics who learn to anticipate the actions and emotions of children
We are travel agents scheduling school trips for the year
We are photographers to keep records of children's growth and development
We are nurses who aid a child who is feeling unwell
We are politicians who must liase with government departments, boards of mangement, parents associations, etc.
We are event managers who arrange sports days and field trips and music recitals and concerts
We are interior designers who decorate a room to provide the positive environment that is a classroom
We are detectives who solve the small mysteries that are so large in the minds of children
We are clowns and comedians who make these children laugh as they learn
We are dieticians who ensure that children have enough to eat each day (not a given)
When Mummy and Daddy are gone for the day, we are both.

But of course, where would we be without 'you' to pay us?
And, apparently, 'you' deserve better.....

Bustle · 28-11-2013 04:29PM

Dear Paleo Muinteoir,

The children you teach have cause to be grateful fior your dedication. Just give a little thought to the following points:

1 Take out the first and last line of your list. What is left could be a description of good parents. Are you sure that is exactly what should be such a main focus in your own profession? What part of your time/energy is left for teaching - the profession which you chose and for which you were trained?
2. This is a much important point. I am sure you have a good, logical mind, the advantage of a third level education - and since you contributed €10K plus for it from personal money you must be young. The public coffers" to which you refer - what do you imagine is the source of the money supply to the "public coffers"? Surely you appreciate that the "public coffers" are replenished directly and indirectly from my income tax and other taxes and levies, yours and everybody elses? Similarly all aspects of education including that training initially undertaken by the majority of those currently employed in Primary education were and are very heavily financed from the "public coffers" - that is the wallet of you,me and the bloke down the street.

Do I feel the same way about Gardai and firemen? You bet I do.

Yes, I deserve better, Paleo Muinteoir - and so do you.

seavill · 28-11-2013 04:36PM

Bustle wrote: »

Dear Paleo Muinteoir,

The children you teach have cause to be grateful fior your dedication. Just give a little thought to the following points:

1 Take out the first and last line of your list. What is left could be a description of good parents. Are you sure that is exactly what should be such a main focus in your own profession? What part of your time/energy is left for teaching - the profession which you chose and for which you were trained?
2. This is a much important point. I am sure you have a good, logical mind, the advantage of a third level education - and since you contributed €10K plus for it from personal money you must be young. The public coffers" to which you refer - what do you imagine is the source of the money supply to the "public coffers"? Surely you appreciate that the "public coffers" are replenished directly and indirectly from my income tax and other taxes and levies, yours and everybody elses? Similarly all aspects of education including that training initially undertaken by the majority of those currently employed in Primary education were and are very heavily financed from the "public coffers" - that is the wallet of you,me and the bloke down the street.

Do I feel the same way about Gardai and firemen? You bet I do.

Yes, I deserve better, Paleo Muinteoir - and so do you.

I think you missed the point. To be a good teacher you have to do all those things in between. You cannot just go in and teach and expect it to work without all the rest.
That is the thing which annoys teachers the most the general public not realising what we actually do.
You are mammy and daddy for them maybe the only mammy or daddy they have in the whole day.
If you don't do all those things I between there is no one else there to do them a lot of the time.
When they are with us we are in locus parentis we are their parents and have to do all those things.

The main point is we will not be able get on with what we were trained to do without doing all of this. Hence the reaction you got from the last poster.

wolfpawnat · 28-11-2013 04:52PM

I think taking out your anger at schools for other parents putting their childrens names down in several is completely misplaced. Schools can only put down the names, they can't tell who has put names elsewhere, but in an area like here, when there are so many housing developments, it is hard to guarantee a place anywhere so parents have to put names down and hope for the best.

Your kid left it too late, there are more kids in this area than there are schools.

paleo muinteoir · 28-11-2013 06:17PM

Bustle wrote: »

Dear Paleo Muinteoir,

The children you teach have cause to be grateful fior your dedication. Just give a little thought to the following points:

1 Take out the first and last line of your list. What is left could be a description of good parents. Are you sure that is exactly what should be such a main focus in your own profession? What part of your time/energy is left for teaching - the profession which you chose and for which you were trained?
2. This is a much important point. I am sure you have a good, logical mind, the advantage of a third level education - and since you contributed €10K plus for it from personal money you must be young. The public coffers" to which you refer - what do you imagine is the source of the money supply to the "public coffers"? Surely you appreciate that the "public coffers" are replenished directly and indirectly from my income tax and other taxes and levies, yours and everybody elses? Similarly all aspects of education including that training initially undertaken by the majority of those currently employed in Primary education were and are very heavily financed from the "public coffers" - that is the wallet of you,me and the bloke down the street.

Do I feel the same way about Gardai and firemen? You bet I do.

Yes, I deserve better, Paleo Muinteoir - and so do you.

In response,

Firstly, as mentioned by seavill above, the point I was making was lost on you. I was pointing out that as teachers we do all of these various things as well as / on top of / alongside with the actual teaching, ie the part of our profession which requires training, qualification and upskilling. I wish I could say that the majority of parents (nevermind the general public) understood that, but the sad truth of the matter is that they don't.

Secondly, you assume that because I have paid for my training that I am young. This is an assumption without basis - how does the fact that I've paid for it make me either young or old?

As for your attitude to those who work in public service professions - I personally think it stinks. Income tax is only one of many contributors to our country's public funds. It is this funding system which saves every parent from having to pay for private schooling. As you say, we all contribute in various different ways (not only through income tax) and we all benefit, again in many different ways. Education happens to be funded this way, benefitting us all as children, and many later again, as parents. I for one am delighted that it is. However, just because you pay income tax does not mean that you pay my salary. This is a huge oversimplification of the situation.

Also, please do remember that our system of free third-level education in this country means that the training of people both in and out of the public service is provided, and so this argument has no place being directed at teachers.

And, finally, as has been said by others, to claim that you deserve better of individual schools, principals and/or teachers in the situation regarding enrolment policies is simply a case of misdirected anger and frustration. The vast majority of schools, principals and teachers do absolutely the very best they can for the children and families they have dealings with, more often than not going above and beyond what is required of them.

G-Man · 03-12-2013 10:59PM

Bustle wrote: »

...
So - how to establish how fluent Irish in family life will be if you cannot "interview" parents - just as one example. "The man from the Ministry" had no coherant answer.

Interviews have been used as cover for checking out "is this the right family and pupil we need in our school".. Or select the families which can indicate in an interview that their kids are bright above the others.

If the English Medium schools cant interview to see if the home and parents are english speaking and have to take kids who only speak e.g. arabic, polish, chinese, it should be a similar rule for the Irish Schools...

If you think about it its quite possible that today there are probably many schools who take pupils where there is a completely other language spoken at home and in the community, yet there are no indications that those pupils ./ schools suffer adversely. So why should Irish Medium schools get a free ride and deciding what prior ability or commitment a family have.

G-Man · 03-12-2013 11:10PM

Has anyone in DES proposed a centralised application system, CAO like....but with points awarded according to the schools admission policy..

5 points for sibling
3 for being local
4 for religion
...AND DEFINITELY NOT FOR ANY ABILITY THING..

Just really a co-ordinating thing so parents can see how what schools are available, what their policies are and indicate a preference list of schools they would apply to... And a central space to scan and log the supporting documents.

Then in april a computer just awards the points according to the individual schools and sends out offers. Which must be confirmed . Unconfirmed/Rejected places get offered in a second round to those families who did not get a place first time round.

Sounds horribly mechanical for 4 yr old kids but still it might bring some clarity and reduce work load on parents and teachers.

byhookorbycrook · 04-12-2013 12:40AM

G-man, such a system has been put in place for secondary places in Limerick and has proved less than helpful.

G-Man · 04-12-2013 06:52AM

OK, I see that now in another thread... It would appear to me that the system possibly works but appears bloody uncomfortable as parents do not get the school they want and they might have only placed one preference on the list...

... Its true, despite all the house building and bulging birth rate 4 years ago, no plans were made by the authorities.

My own daughter faces school entry in '14 here in Dublin City and we are not happy either with the choices.. However it has posed us to think about this, if my child faces a bulge now will she will face one throughout there school life e.g. overcrowded classes, too few places on school trips or sports teams... How will this affect a child, will they be fighters and used to competition or too stressed.

Its a strong topic in our house, and sometimes it brings questions of leaving the country to the surface. Now straying off the topic here, but if one has a job here and have years of pay cuts, raised taxes, voluntary contributions, poorer services. it makes no wonder that a lot of the people leaving the country are ones leaving who already have jobs.

No place for child in local school

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