Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

J C · 12-11-2013 11:43PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im not a Calvinist as I clearly stated- but its clear that predestination is part of the Gospel however we understand it (both the Orthodox and Roman Catholics also agree with this).

I think that we are 'predestined' in the sense that Jesus knows who the Elect are going to be ... but not in the sense that He chooses who is Elected irrespective of their will on the matter.

SoulandForm wrote: »

But lets not get into that just now- Christ clearly said NOT to caste pearls before swine, and if people refuse to listen to the Gospel than to shake the dust of your shoes and move on.

Other Christians have pointed me towards this verse in the past ... and said that it would indicate that I shouldn't bother talking to Atheists ... but I feel a great burden towards our Atheist brothers and sisters.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Fruitful discussions on religious matters can often be had with Muslims for instance, or Sikhs, but they cannot be had with Irish new atheists; they are in the words of the beautiful fourth century hymn "Ere the morning star" fuel for the fire eternal; tell them that and leave it there. That might at least make them think and even soften their hearts.

Very stark.

Like I have said, I feel a great burden to talk and walk with Atheists ... I don't get much thanks ... but who ever said life was easy?

St Paul talked to the Greek philosophers (who were the Atheists of that era) ... and while I'm not comparing myself to Paul ... it does justify me in continuing to talk to them.
... and at the end of the day, I'm the kind of person who will talk to anybody who talks to me.

Its the courteous thing to do so.

PopePalpatine · 12-11-2013 11:49PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Fruitful discussions on religious matters can often be had with Muslims for instance, or Sikhs, but they cannot be had with Irish new atheists; they are in the words of the beautiful fourth century hymn "Ere the morning star" fuel for the fire eternal; tell them that and leave it there. That might at least make them think and even soften their hearts.

Of course, the perfect way to get someone to obey you is to threaten them! :rolleyes:

SoulandForm · 12-11-2013 11:52PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Of course, the perfect way to get someone to obey you is to threaten them! :rolleyes:

You do what you want; no one is forcing you otherwise. Just remember there are consequences.

SoulandForm · 12-11-2013 11:55PM

J C wrote: »

We are 'predestined' in the sense that Jesus knows who the Elect are going to be ... but not in the sense that He chooses who is Elected irrespective of their will on the matter.

In some cases it is a case of God's foreknowledge of their virtue but in some cases its not. John Cassian in the below goes over various examples from Scripture of how pre-destination doesnt always work in the same way for all people. Sometimes God arranges things to save the utterly rotten in His mercy while passing by much better people in His justice.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/350813.htm

SoulandForm · 12-11-2013 11:57PM

John Cassian by the way wrote that to oppose some of the exaggerations of Augustine of Hippo from whom John Calvin heavily drew his teachings.

J C · 13-11-2013 12:04AM

SoulandForm wrote: »

In some cases it is a case of God's foreknowledge of their virtue but in some cases its not. John Cassian in the below goes over various examples from Scripture of how pre-destination doesnt always work in the same way for all people. Sometimes God arranges things to save the utterly rotten in His mercy while passing by much better people in His justice.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/350813.htm

The 'utterly rotten' are sometimes Saved because they repent of their 'rotteness' and recognise that they cannot Save themselves ... while 'much better' people aren't Saved because they think they are so perfect that they can Save themselves.
... no 'arranging' or other inappropriate behaviour is required from God for this to happen.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-11-2013 07:10AM

SoulandForm wrote: »

You do what you want; no one is forcing you otherwise. Just remember there are consequences.

That has always been a bit unconvincing to me when theists tell me that the idea of hell is not threatening, but they have a choice to make and that choice has consequences.

To me it just brings up the image of a mugger with a knife saying "I am not threatening you with this knife at all.... no no not at all.... but you have a choice to give me all your money now.... and if you choose wrongly then you choose to be impaled on this knife multiple times".

At the end of the day everything from hell to the more dilute sounding "Gods Justice" are just ways to emotionally cajole people into accepting an otherwise _entirely_ unsubstantiated set of claims. Just one unsubstantiated assertion designed to bolster the credibility of another. Alas for theists assertion really is one area where 1+1=1.

SoulandForm · 13-11-2013 11:30AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That has always been a bit unconvincing to me when theists tell me that the idea of hell is not threatening, but they have a choice to make and that choice has consequences.

To reject God seeing as He is the Creator of all is not only to go against the nature of things in general but go against one's own nature, to distort and destroy it, so that in the Ages to come when God's glory fills all that exists and there is no longer anywhere to hide from it those who have chosen lies over truth and hatred over love will have no where to hide from Absolute Truth and Absolute Love; that which makes the Saints shine like the stars will be a tormenting flame to the enemies of God though in Itself it will remain what it is; the Glory of the Lord.

SoulandForm · 13-11-2013 11:54AM

J C wrote: »

St Paul talked to the Greek philosophers (who were the Atheists of that era) ... and while I'm not comparing myself to Paul ... it does justify me in continuing to talk to them.
... and at the end of the day, I'm the kind of person who will talk to anybody who talks to me.

Its the courteous thing to do so.

No they were not! Not at all!

In some Orthodox countries they actually have Icons of Plato because some in the early Church considered him just as much a Prophet as Micah, etc- maybe that was going to far but certainly others outside of Israel had some communion with the Logos however distorted. Justin Martyr in the 2 nd century talks about this.

georgesstreet · 13-11-2013 12:03PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That has always been a bit unconvincing to me when theists tell me that the idea of hell is not threatening, but they have a choice to make and that choice has consequences.

To me it just brings up the image of a mugger with a knife saying "I am not threatening you with this knife at all.... no no not at all.... but you have a choice to give me all your money now.... and if you choose wrongly then you choose to be impaled on this knife multiple times".

At the end of the day everything from hell to the more dilute sounding "Gods Justice" are just ways to emotionally cajole people into accepting an otherwise _entirely_ unsubstantiated set of claims. Just one unsubstantiated assertion designed to bolster the credibility of another. Alas for theists assertion really is one area where 1+1=1.

I made this post on another thread but the moderator didn't like it, so I put it here where it seems more appropriate;

More and more people in Ireland see through the claim that the only way to salvation is through christianity. If you happen to be born into a muslim household, or a hindu one, there is no hope for you as only christians can be saved. They see that the christian god condemns the whole continent of India, for example, for being born into the wrong religion. A loving god who condemns almost the whole continent for the crime of being born into the wrong religion. How can that be love?

Ireland is mostly now living in a post christian era, and there is no reason to suppose that is going to change. There will always be some christians but as the country gets more and more educated, its reasonable to assume less and less will believe that they have to love a god while at the same time fear him, on pain of his punishment, for not loving him. You call that a loving god, others may differ and conclude that its not possible to consider god loving, when he orders you to love him on pain of terrible punishment if you don't.

More and more are coming to realise that's not love, and consider those who believe it slaves and masochists forced to love someone they fear, ("If you don't love me and do as I say I am going to punish you" is the definition of masochism, and those who accept it, slaves). You have said as much yourself that if you don't love god the eternal and terrible punishment he will inflict on you is you will not be saved.

What that means for the future of christianity in Ireland is that it's likely the trend of christianity shrinking will continue.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2013 01:45PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

No they were not! Not at all!

In some Orthodox countries they actually have Icons of Plato because some in the early Church considered him just as much a Prophet as Micah, etc- maybe that was going to far but certainly others outside of Israel had some communion with the Logos however distorted. Justin Martyr in the 2 nd century talks about this.

Icons of Plato...in Orthodox churches! I thought Plato was the devil incarnate for the Orthodoxen. Isn't dualism anithmia to them?

Geomy · 13-11-2013 01:51PM

I know it's daft isn't it, I know this is the Christianity forum.
But anyone I know who drops their attachments and allegiance to the Abrahamic God and believe in a loving God, Universe, cosmos or just become an Atheist the easier their life becomes, and they mature and adapt to a more stress and paranoia free life....

tommy2bad · 13-11-2013 01:51PM

georgesstreet wrote: »

I made this post on another thread but the moderator didn't like it, so I put it here where it seems more appropriate;

More and more people in Ireland see through the claim that the only way to salvation is through christianity. If you happen to be born into a muslim household, or a hindu one, there is no hope for you as only christians can be saved. They see that the christian god condemns the whole continent of India, for example, for being born into the wrong religion. A loving god who condemns almost the whole continent for the crime of being born into the wrong religion. How can that be love?

Ireland is mostly now living in a post christian era, and there is no reason to suppose that is going to change. There will always be some christians but as the country gets more and more educated, its reasonable to assume less and less will believe that they have to love a god while at the same time fear him, on pain of his punishment, for not loving him. You call that a loving god, others may differ and conclude that its not possible to consider god loving, when he orders you to love him on pain of terrible punishment if you don't.

More and more are coming to realise that's not love, and consider those who believe it slaves and masochists forced to love someone they fear, ("If you don't love me and do as I say I am going to punish you" is the definition of masochism, and those who accept it, slaves). You have said as much yourself that if you don't love god the eternal and terrible punishment he will inflict on you is you will not be saved.

What that means for the future of christianity in Ireland is that it's likely the trend of christianity shrinking will continue.

Had to reply to this as theirs so many incorrect assumptions contained.
First the Church never said that only it's one members would be saved. What it says is that God decides who is saved and who isn't and we know for certain tha tHe offers salvation to members of the church. What He dicdes for everyone else isn't known.
Second the fear of God isn't as we understand fear, that's a limitation of language. Whats meant is Awe more than fear as we use it.
Third, yeah the old more educated are less religious canard. Explain the US then or do you think they are all uneducated idiots?

SoulandForm · 13-11-2013 01:57PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Icons of Plato...in Orthodox churches! I thought Plato was the devil incarnate for the Orthodoxen. Isn't dualism anithmia to them?

Read what the Fathers such as St Gregory of Nyssa and St Athanasius say about him. As someone said "What is Plato but Moses in Attic Greek"?

georgesstreet · 13-11-2013 02:21PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

First the Church never said that only it's one members would be saved.

You seem to be confusing one church with christianity.

tommy2bad wrote: »

First the Church never said that only it's one members would be saved. What it says is that God decides who is saved and who isn't and we know for certain tha tHe offers salvation to members of the church. What He dicdes for everyone else isn't known.

So your argument is that you have to not only love god, but also to love him through a particular church to ensure that god will save you? And if you don't love him via this particular church, then he might save you, or not, but you really are not sure?

tommy2bad wrote: »

Second the fear of God isn't as we understand fear, that's a limitation of language. Whats meant is Awe more than fear as we use it.

I don't know about you, but to be punished for eternity is something I would be afraid of rather than just being in awe of, were I to believe it. I'd also be in fear of a god who told, for example, the Israelites to murder all the tribe of the Canaanites. You might be in awe of such a god, but I would definitely fear someone like that.

tommy2bad wrote: »

Third, yeah the old more educated are less religious canard. Explain the US then or do you think they are all uneducated idiots?

It is a fact that as Ireland has become more educated, the more it has turned up its nose as the man made religion which is christianity.

Its also a fact that the catholic church, when it was very powerful burned people at the stake for the crime of owning a bible in their own language.

They knew if people actually read the bible, they would come to the conclusion that christianity is nonsense, and that's exactly whats has happened since people were educated and started to read the bible. SO they told people how to think, and when some people refused they were tortured and murdered for not thinking is they way they were instructed. This is an example of the work, presumably, of a loving god at work.

Morbert · 13-11-2013 03:30PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Fruitful discussions on religious matters can often be had with Muslims for instance, or Sikhs, but they cannot be had with Irish new atheists; they are in the words of the beautiful fourth century hymn "Ere the morning star" fuel for the fire eternal; tell them that and leave it there. That might at least make them think and even soften their hearts.

You have more to contend with than atheists who won't listen. You also have to contend with atheists who are doing the talking. A lot of effort has gone into careful arguments for why atheism is true and Christianity is false. More specifically, "new" atheism is a movement that is building a repository of literature that supports the consistency of the materialist worldview, the application of empiricism as a sound epistemic framework, and the inadequacies of traditional "evidence for God".

While I don't believe Christianity is inconsistent or incoherent as a belief, I do believe that all that is needed for atheism to flourish is social and economic stability, coupled with freedom of thought and speech.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-11-2013 03:46PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

To reject God seeing as He is the Creator of all is not only to go against the nature of things in general but go against one's own nature, to distort and destroy it, so that in the Ages to come when God's glory fills all that exists and there is no longer anywhere to hide from it those who have chosen lies over truth and hatred over love will have no where to hide from Absolute Truth and Absolute Love; that which makes the Saints shine like the stars will be a tormenting flame to the enemies of God though in Itself it will remain what it is; the Glory of the Lord.

Yet there is about as much reason to believe ANY of the above is true as there is punctuation in the paragraph you used to say it. That is: Little to none.

The entire sermon you preach above is based on presupposing the conclusion this whole thread is about. You simply assume there is a god. Further assume that our "nature" is as you describe. And then assume that anything you write on that basis has any merit whatsoever.

That is one string of assumption. Basically all you have is assumption and assertion, all bolsters by nothing but vague and empty threats about "tormenting flames".

Remember this is not a thread about preaching your religion, but about discussing whether there is any reason to think there even is a god in the first place. I am aware of no arguments, evidence, data or reasoning (much less so from you) to suggest there is.

All I have been offered since I joined the thread so far really is a very poor "paper" purporting to be support for the parallel issue of reincarnation by someone who feels that the existence of reincarnation is automatically evidence for god.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-11-2013 04:00PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Third, yeah the old more educated are less religious canard. Explain the US then or do you think they are all uneducated idiots?

I do not think anyone suggested they were "uneducated idiots". Or that people who think there is a god are automatically uneducated or stupid. You appear to be reading them too willingly into a post that never suggested these things.

I would not so readily as you link lack of education with idiocy either. Some very intelligent people never got an education. Some very stupid people have.

But at the same time strong inverse correlation has been observed often between education and religious tendencies. While of course correlation does not imply causation, it certainly warrants calling you on throwing the word "canard" out there too readily.

The greatest mind there likely ever was, Newton, himself believed some pretty egregious unsubstantiated tripe. Intelligence and/or education is by no means a method to make one immune from believing nonsense any more than being physically and athletically top of your game leaves you immune to catching the common cold.

But clearly if one wishes to avoid a group of people being infected with religious meme viruses then education is seemingly one of the best and more effective inoculations we have.

As is contentment with quality of life as peoples irrationality on the subject tends to be fed by basic desperation. The common human mentality of "Oh well, it cant hurt" surfaces when times are hard and people are seemingly more prone to dropping to their knees to pray, at home or in pews, when quality of life drops. Especially in societies where the clergy have any power of note and being seen NOT to show up in church will effect things like your child's chance to get into the best school etc etc.

One finds oneself wondering how much religious belief IS religious belief and not just cynical acting out to benefit from societal situations and norms.

Brian Shanahan · 13-11-2013 05:20PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

First the Church never said that only it's one members would be saved.

So all the stuff the mother superior told my aunt (who was an initiate at the time) about the Salvation Army being the devil incarnate and that England was lousy with filty protestants all destined for hell because they had the temerity (in my words) to believe microscopically differently than good catholics before sending her off to finish her novitiate in (IIRC) Leeds was just fcuking with her head, then?

Come off it, every chrisitian denomination holds that members of all other christian denominations are going straight to hell, even if today they are too circumspect to say it out loud.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2013 05:35PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I do not think anyone suggested they were "uneducated idiots". Or that people who think there is a god are automatically uneducated or stupid. You appear to be reading them too willingly into a post that never suggested these things.

I would not so readily as you link lack of education with idiocy either. Some very intelligent people never got an education. Some very stupid people have.
Thats what I was saying, thanks for repeating it!
But at the same time strong inverse correlation has been observed often between education and religious tendencies. While of course correlation does not imply causation, it certainly warrants calling you on throwing the word "canard" out there too readily.
I here this education reduces religion all to often and it not suported by the evidence. however you mention something later which may have a bearing.
The greatest mind there likely ever was, Newton, himself believed some pretty egregious unsubstantiated tripe. Intelligence and/or education is by no means a method to make one immune from believing nonsense any more than being physically and athletically top of your game leaves you immune to catching the common cold.

But clearly if one wishes to avoid a group of people being infected with religious meme viruses then education is seemingly one of the best and more effective inoculations we have.
sigh and you were doing so well up till this nonsense.
As is contentment with quality of life as peoples irrationality on the subject tends to be fed by basic desperation. The common human mentality of "Oh well, it cant hurt" surfaces when times are hard and people are seemingly more prone to dropping to their knees to pray, at home or in pews, when quality of life drops. Especially in societies where the clergy have any power of note and being seen NOT to show up in church will effect things like your child's chance to get into the best school etc etc.

One finds oneself wondering how much religious belief IS religious belief and not just cynical acting out to benefit from societal situations and norms.

I think social pressure may have more influence than education or poverty. It's not education that reduces religion but the type of education.

Benny_Cake · 13-11-2013 05:37PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So all the stuff the mother superior told my aunt (who was an initiate at the time) about the Salvation Army being the devil incarnate and that England was lousy with filty protestants all destined for hell because they had the temerity (in my words) to believe microscopically differently than good catholics before sending her off to finish her novitiate in (IIRC) Leeds was just fcuking with her head, then?

Either that, or she was misinformed. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that members of other Christian denominations are destined for hell.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Come off it, every chrisitian denomination holds that members of all other christian denominations are going straight to hell, even if today they are too circumspect to say it out loud.

The Catholics don't, the Orthodox don't, the Anglicans don't, the Lutherans don't, the Methodists don't... that's the overwhelming majority of the world's Christians right there. I'm struggling to think of any denominations that teaches that only it's members are saved. It would make sessions of the World Council of Churches rather awkward if that was the case.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2013 05:41PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So all the stuff the mother superior told my aunt (who was an initiate at the time) about the Salvation Army being the devil incarnate and that England was lousy with filty protestants all destined for hell because they had the temerity (in my words) to believe microscopically differently than good catholics before sending her off to finish her novitiate in (IIRC) Leeds was just fcuking with her head, then?

Come off it, every chrisitian denomination holds that members of all other christian denominations are going straight to hell, even if today they are too circumspect to say it out loud.

Yes she was a bad mother superior. What she taught was bull. not christian or even RCC doctrine.
No they don't Brian, and you saying so doesn't make it so. They all claim that theirs is the closest version of the truth and the best bet but any that claim everyone else is going to hell are usurping God and being dicks. Yes Westboro Baptist Church I'm thinking of you.

SoulandForm · 13-11-2013 05:42PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Either that, or she was misinformed. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that members of other Christian denominations are destined for hell.

Im afraid that it is you who have been misinformed;

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

tommy2bad · 13-11-2013 05:46PM

Morbert wrote: »

You have more to contend with than atheists who won't listen. You also have to contend with atheists who are doing the talking. A lot of effort has gone into careful arguments for why atheism is true and Christianity is false. More specifically, "new" atheism is a movement that is building a repository of literature that supports the consistency of the materialist worldview, the application of empiricism as a sound epistemic framework, and the inadequacies of traditional "evidence for God".

While I don't believe Christianity is inconsistent or incoherent as a belief, I do believe that all that is needed for atheism to flourish is social and economic stability, coupled with freedom of thought and speech.

While I don't believe Christianity is inconsistent or incoherent as a belief, I do believe that all that is needed for atheism, pantheism, new age mysticism, and the continued sale of Paulo Coelho books to flourish is social and economic stability, coupled with freedom of thought and speech.
Good luck new atheism, you'll need it.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2013 06:02PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im afraid that it is you who have been misinformed;

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Even popes aren't immune from a touch of Jansenism. Doesn't make them right either.

SoulandForm · 13-11-2013 06:22PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Even popes aren't immune from a touch of Jansenism. Doesn't make them right either.

Only the above has absolutely nothing to do with Jansenism per se (infact the person who shouted this aspect of Roman Catholic dogma in the 20 th century was a Jesuit!).

Jansenism was actually pretty cool-there was much more to it than hyper-Augustinism. The plays of Racine and the Penses of Pascal are both products of Jansenism.

Brian Shanahan · 13-11-2013 07:14PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Either that, or she was misinformed. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that members of other Christian denominations are destined for hell.

Well then every member of the hierarchy since the foundation of the bishopric of Rome must also be wrong, because it's well known doctrine.

I'll also point out, religions tend not to survive when they give credence to other religions.

M.Byrne · 13-11-2013 07:29PM

I have to say this topic infuriates me. I think religion has its place in the sense that it's nice to think that loved ones who have passed have gone somewhere rather than ceasing to exist. But really if you believe in a god(an entity that consciously) created everything then you are extremely mislead and naive.Without diving too much into this I will say this..take a pencil or pen and put a dot on the wall. That dot on your wall in your house is earths equivalent in our solar system alone. Now really tell me one being created the entire universe because its just ridiculous.

Benny_Cake · 13-11-2013 07:33PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im afraid that it is you who have been misinformed;

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

From Lumen Genius (1964):

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.

Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

And

Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation. [/b]

That's the current position of the church as I understand it, although I know there are a couple of extremist fringe groups such as the Feeneyites who see things differently.

SoulandForm · 13-11-2013 07:46PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

From Lumen Genius (1964):

That's the current position of the church as I understand it, although I know there are a couple of extremist fringe groups such as the Feeneyites who see things differently.

How on earth can a document that is binding on no one supersede a dogmatic Papal Bull?

Also what exactly do you mean by "extremist"?- either a position is true or it is not true. The position that Roman Catholics are bound to believe that there is no salvation outside of submission to the See of Rome is true. Such terms have no place in theology.

Also what you said about the Orthodox is also not true-most Orthodox believe that not only there is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church but also there are no valid Sacraments outside of the Orthodox Church.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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