Mediocrity

Jumbotron · 05-11-2013 04:12AM #1

It appears that Trinity has become a generic FETAC degree mill.

The family silverware has long been sold off and the college lives off its past, rather than its present achievements.

For the odd bright spark naively attracted to the college on foot of it being the "best in the country", their effect is soon nullified by a great mass of "drift wood" that permeates throughout any institution that's funded off the back of tax money taken from private enterprise.

While Trinity always had the reputation for attracting English kids who were too stupid to get into Oxbridge, yet too proud to go to Birmingham Polytech; at least they added a bit of character to the place. Unfortunately, Trinity College has long lost its Harry Potter effect. It's like one of those 2D sets on the old Western movies -- a facade, a pastiche college of its former self.

Under pressure to funnel thousands of students through commencements, the result is poor facilities, mediocre lectures, cramped conditions and grade inflation.

Academia aside, the college's historical sporting prowess is gone, with informal games (frisbee, 5 a-side) taking centre stage. Hell the sprogs of South Dublin even tolerate cheaters. If it was Harvard or Yale, Oxford or Cambridge, it would make international headlines.

Degrees, like currency, are subject to inflation and devaluation. If you print degrees, they become less valuable. Buying into the education-for-the-masses strategy of government is all very fine if your outlook is short term (the next promotion). Why did nobody step in to protect the fine institution that was Trinity College, Dublin? The last vestiges of what made Trinity Trinity will be gone in another generation.

UCD will soon be the top university in Ireland (if they're not there already).

stealinhorses · 05-11-2013 11:34AM

You seem to have a real problem with TCD, but you're probably right.

The only thing I don't agree with is that UCD is somehow immune to this lowering of academic standards. This is a problem all across the board that starts at home with parents of young children, in primary schools, secondary schools and is not the fault of Trinity or any other institution. They have to adapt their curricula to suit the level of students coming in after the Leaving Cert.

When I first came over to Ireland at age 12, people in my class were learning how to add and multiply while I just came off learning quadratic equations (as part of curriculum in school, not by myself at home). My teacher was in shock that I knew my multiplication tables up to 20 and not up to 10. Most people in my new class didn't even know their tables up to 5.

I was surprised that kids were allowed to use calculators in math class, not even mentioning this idea of "attempt marks". Noone had any sort of geographical knowledge and absolutely no historical knowledge, but they all knew how to play the Xbox (which I've never seen in my life up until I moved here). This continues up to this day, where half of the Science class in TCD are absolute idiots and getting over 500 points in the LC somehow entitles them to think they are in any way smart. People seem to think repeats are a normal occurrence and it is not unusual for them not to read over their lab reports at all and make tons of spelling mistakes at the age of 20.

This is the new breed of people who will run this country and it is sad to see, but it's not a problem exclusive to Trinity. I know, because I have friends in DIT and I've seen their math exams and they're a year behind TCD in course material. Also, noone in DIT has ever heard of LaTeX and all their exams are typeset in Word and it looks unprofessional to bits.

In fact, Trinity is the last bastion of hope when it comes to education standard in Ireland with their Schol exams, although they are also getting easier by the year.

Ravelleman · 05-11-2013 12:05PM

Jumbotron, your post is based on a lot of vague, sentimental assertions about an imagined past Trinity.

Since you've made an attempt to engage with the question, I'd probably allow you a III but you really need to make better use of the source material next time.

Random_Person · 05-11-2013 01:52PM

stealinhorses wrote: »

In fact, Trinity is the last bastion of hope when it comes to education standard in Ireland with their Schol exams, although they are also getting easier by the year.

What basis are you making this statement on? Granted, the number has scholars has risen year on year recently but who's to say that this is because Schols are becoming easier? The number of JS students attempting and succeeding in Schols was rising meaning there are now more Scholars. This isn't indicative of an easier exam but a broken system. Although this is soon to stop with the exclusion of anyone not in SF from taking the exams which can only make the exams harder as they won't have anything to do with maturity, or experience of an extra year in college. They'll be based purely on academic knowledge and time dedicated to study. Everyone taking Schols will be on a level playing field.

The college doesn't need scholars and evidence of this is in the majority of people failing to get the first required. For example last year out of ~7 people attempting Schols in my course, no-one got it. The year before there were 2. This is obviously an isolated example but the point stands, schols are difficult and definitely are not getting easier. Different groups of people with different standards and different attitudes attempt Schols each year meaning there's bound to be a different number of scholars and therefore a perceived increase or decrease in its difficulty.

And to reply to OP, if you were to cut the fancy-ass rhetoric out of that post you'd only have line or two of an "argument" for Trinity's supposed mediocrity so really, your "argument" is null.

sganyfx · 05-11-2013 02:06PM

Yeah it sucks being at a university which is targeted and actively headhunted by Goldman Sachs, Blackrock, Morgan Stanley....Etc I mean Mediocre firms for a mediocre university, right?

stealinhorses · 05-11-2013 04:24PM

Random_Person wrote: »

What basis are you making this statement on?

I was basing it on the fact that if I look at past papers from 10 years ago for my subjects, I can't do any of the questions, whereas I'd be able to do a few from <5 years ago.

galwayjohn89 · 05-11-2013 06:54PM

stealinhorses wrote: »

I was basing it on the fact that if I look at past papers from 10 years ago for my subjects, I can't do any of the questions, whereas I'd be able to do a few from <5 years ago.

Thats the same as me. I couldn't do the papers that were done 10 years ago. That is because the course has evolved and moved with the times. We're taught different stuff now because it is far more relevant.

stealinhorses · 05-11-2013 07:08PM

I also think that with the advent of Google and Wikipedia it has become much easier to complete assignments without having to use your brain at all. Back in the day, you couldn't just ask how to solve question 7 on your course's Facebook page and get an answer back in one minute. You actually had to sit down in the library (with no laptop or WolframAlpha), open a book and learn how to do a question by making mistakes and working towards the right solution. This naturally trained people to become better.

People aren't becoming less intelligent, they're just getting lazier. And like I said, this obviously is not a trend intrinsic to Trinity, but to all institutions of higher learning in the world.

Tragedy · 05-11-2013 07:35PM

My courses exam papers got significantly easier ~5 years ago but have stayed the same since.

Source: Every year preparing for exams I go over as many previous years exam papers as possible.

languagenerd · 05-11-2013 07:50PM

Jumbotron wrote: »

Under pressure to funnel thousands of students through commencements, the result is poor facilities, mediocre lectures, cramped conditions and grade inflation.

Poor facilities: Like the brand-new Biomedical Science building? Like the five student libraries with over 5 million texts (the biggest collection in Ireland and bigger than many in Europe) and access to a huge array of online academic journals? Like the modern sports centre? Like the Centre for Languages with it's three technology rooms? etc.

Mediocre lectures: What is your source for this? TCD consistently ranks highly for most of its subjects: English, Politics, History and Modern Languages are in the top 50 in the world (QS Subject Rankings 2013) and Accounting & Finance, Biological Sciences, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, Geography, Law, Medicine, Pharmacy, Psychology and Sociology are all in the top 100.

Cramped conditions: I don't even know what you mean by this. There are huge lecture halls and labs, as well as over 100 tutorial rooms.

Grade Inflation: Again, where are you getting this? I was the only one in my course (graduated this year) to get a First overall. In 2nd and 3rd year, no-one got a First in one of my subjects. I've done all the past exam papers right back to the 1990s (as well as two random ones from 1951 and 1978 that our lecturer brought in) - the level of difficulty has been the same across the board.

Oh and TCD has absolutely nothing to do with FETAC, for the record.

Come back with sources backing up your accusations and maybe I'll listen to you. Right now, you just look like a bitter person with a grudge against TCD...

Jumbotron · 05-11-2013 08:24PM

sganyfx wrote: »

Yeah it sucks being at a university which is targeted and actively headhunted by Goldman Sachs, Blackrock, Morgan Stanley....Etc I mean Mediocre firms for a mediocre university, right?

Lol.

You really need to get out into the real world.

I know people in their 30s working for said organisations on €35k a year who are still "doing exams" in the hope that one day, they will achieve their perfect life. They'd have better off being a travelling salesman where you get a nice car and a nice salary and go home to your family at a reasonable hour. But then again, you wouldn't be able to tell the blonde girl in Legg's that you work for one of the "big four", while you contemplate how your salary will last you till the end of the month as you order another bottle of prosecco on your credit card.

And yes, Trinity College is mediocre at best.

wretcheddomain · 05-11-2013 08:30PM

I don't think you should dismiss all the OP points - there are valid criticisms there, most of which, especially grade inflation and dumbing down, apply across the board. And don't ask me for a source as I've had first hand experience of several Universities in Ireland.

Jumbotron · 05-11-2013 08:35PM

languagenerd wrote: »

Poor facilities: Like the brand-new Biomedical Science building? Like the five student libraries with over 5 million texts (the biggest collection in Ireland and bigger than many in Europe) and access to a huge array of online academic journals? Like the modern sports centre? Like the Centre for Languages with it's three technology rooms? etc.

Lol. You should take a trip out to Belfield and look at the new science centre and compare that with Biomedical Science building on the bad end of Pearse Street.

Ok, the library is good (if you're a history student). Unfortunately, the barrier to publication is so low these days and Santry is bursting at the seams with tat -- just so they can claim to be a "copyright library".

And the sports centre... Lol. You've never been to Belfield, no? I remember when the sports centre was being planned -- first it was a 50m pool, then a 33m pool, but they settled for a 25m pool. What examples of sporting excellence are there at Trinity College 2013? What division are the rugby team (the oldest rugby club in continuous existence) in?

languagenerd wrote: »

Mediocre lectures: What is your source for this? TCD consistently ranks highly for most of its subjects: English, Politics, History and Modern Languages are in the top 50 in the world (QS Subject Rankings 2013) and Accounting & Finance, Biological Sciences, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, Geography, Law, Medicine, Pharmacy, Psychology and Sociology are all in the top 100.

That's Trinity's problem -- they're a jack of all trades in higher education market that's now global. They should have focussed on what they do best instead of building all those hideous buildings down the East end.

languagenerd wrote: »

Cramped conditions: I don't even know what you mean by this. There are huge lecture halls and labs, as well as over 100 tutorial rooms.

Lol. You really have never been out of your cave, have you?

languagenerd wrote: »

Grade Inflation: Again, where are you getting this? I was the only one in my course (graduated this year) to get a First overall. In 2nd and 3rd year, no-one got a First in one of my subjects. I've done all the past exam papers right back to the 1990s (as well as two random ones from 1951 and 1978 that our lecturer brought in) - the level of difficulty has been the same across the board.

That explains your enthusiasm for clinging on to the last vestiges of a failing institution.

languagenerd wrote: »

Oh and TCD has absolutely nothing to do with FETAC, for the record.

Sorry, HETAC. If Trinity is happy to homogenise their degrees according to the standards of a government that changes like the tide, then that's their loss.

languagenerd wrote: »

Come back with sources backing up your accusations and maybe I'll listen to you. Right now, you just look like a bitter person with a grudge against TCD...

I don't have a grudge. I'm a realist. Seeing one of society's once-great institutions tear itself apart from the inside out is not a pretty sight.

If you still believe in the Trinity project, you should be more honest with yourself, listen to the criticism, and try to repair things. You come across as being in total denial. That won't help matters.

Jumbotron · 05-11-2013 08:38PM

And don't forget the absolutely appalling architecture that has gone up in recent years.

Indicative of the college's mediocrity.

Jumbotron · 05-11-2013 08:42PM

stealinhorses wrote: »

People aren't becoming less intelligent, they're just getting lazier. And like I said, this obviously is not a trend intrinsic to Trinity, but to all institutions of higher learning in the world.

Oxbridge, Ivy League, etc. have embraced these trends. Most lecturers in Ireland go out of their way to prevent their materials being broadcast online and be subject to global scrutiny because they know the content pales in insignificance.

Being able to follow an entire undergraduate course from Stanford, delivered by an absolute genius with a staggering publications record, is revolutionary in terms of learning. Online lectures have been available for years. Where is Trinity College, Dublin's portfolio and how many hits do they get?

stealinhorses · 05-11-2013 09:21PM

You're not necessarily right about lecture content not available online.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TRINITYCOLLEGEDUBLIN?feature=watch

This YouTube channel has plenty of free video material. I wouldn't expect them to put up whole courses online, as students pay fees in order to get this material delivered by lecturers, so making everything available to the public kind of defeats the purpose of going to college.

CRANN along with The Science Gallery have organised numerous initiatives to engage the public about science and cutting edge research that is performed in Trinity.

Exhibitions, debates and talks from world-renowned experts are a weekly occurrence in Trinity and are often available to the public.

Trinity might not be trend-setters when it comes to this in a global context, but are definitely miles ahead of UCD when it comes to what you're talking about.

Just by comparing Open Days for 6th years in both colleges, UCD's was horrible IMO when I went there, whereas Trinity professors and students were far more passionate and engaging, but that's just my take on that.

Sparticle · 05-11-2013 09:44PM

kc90 · 05-11-2013 09:50PM

Jumbotron wrote: »

Lol.

You really need to get out into the real world.

I know people in their 30s working for said organisations on €35k a year who are still "doing exams" in the hope that one day, they will achieve their perfect life. They'd have better off being a travelling salesman where you get a nice car and a nice salary and go home to your family at a reasonable hour. But then again, you wouldn't be able to tell the blonde girl in Legg's that you work for one of the "big four", while you contemplate how your salary will last you till the end of the month as you order another bottle of prosecco on your credit card.

And yes, Trinity College is mediocre at best.

Are you arguing that the point of an education in Trinity is a well paying job? That's certainly not the view of the college.
Having experienced both TCD and two other universities, I can tell you it's well above mediocre. All have had their own failings, but there is no comparison of the overall facilities available.

What's your backing for all this?

Fad · 05-11-2013 10:00PM

Jumbotron wrote: »

Lol. You should take a trip out to Belfield and look at the new science centre and compare that with Biomedical Science building on the bad end of Pearse Street.

And the sports centre... Lol. You've never been to Belfield, no? I remember when the sports centre was being planned -- first it was a 50m pool, then a 33m pool, but they settled for a 25m pool. What examples of sporting excellence are there at Trinity College 2013? What division are the rugby team (the oldest rugby club in continuous existence) in?

Parts of the new UCD science building arent finished yet, and in the mean time, the college has half a chemistry building, and a physics building that is quite literally falling. Perhaps worth bearing in mind.

Also, UCD's sports facilities are wonderful (sort of, the new bits are lovely, the old bits are pretty wrecked) if you're a paying member of the public, if you're a student on the otherhand you cant use the gym at peak times and get shunted off to the old gym (which is fine, but it's not the same.

Jhax · 06-11-2013 11:35PM

Get out of your comfort zone OP.

Jumbotron · 06-11-2013 11:46PM

Jhax wrote: »

Get out of your comfort zone OP.

When Mary Robinson hands you a devalued degree on your big day out in your polyester lounge suit, you'll soon realise that it's worth about the same as a degree from Lancaster Polytechnic. (About €22k a year before tax)

sganyfx · 07-11-2013 01:42AM

OP what university do you/did you attend?

LLMMML · 07-11-2013 04:39AM

In fairness TCD's facilities are decent, but not great. The gym was incredibly poorly planned out with a current limit of 25 people in the weights area for a population of 15,000. The library doesn't have great opening hours either. These are two major student facilities. I don't have a problem with the lecture spaces, they just about work.

I've always thought of TCD as a very anti-student university. I (personally) have found that UG teaching is a bit of an afterthought. While I can understand researchers viewing teaching as a bit of a chore, the importance of UG teaching should be championed at the college and departmental level, which it is not.

I've found the support staff (administrative/library/security etc.) to treat students (UGs especially) as a bit of a nuisance (an all out nuisance in the case of many of the security staff). While I'm against treating a university as a business, a lot of these staff could do with training in customer service. And why do administrative staff always seem to be on holiday? Whenever I need a question answered urgently they always seem to be on a half-day or some form of leave.

EuropeanSon · 07-11-2013 06:21PM

stealinhorses wrote: »

In fact, Trinity is the last bastion of hope when it comes to education standard in Ireland with their Schol exams, although they are also getting easier by the year.

This bit is utter bull****. The schol exam I sat was as hard as or harder than the previous two years' papers, and last years exam was harder again than our year's. I suspect this year will be as hard if not harder again.

EuropeanSon · 07-11-2013 06:26PM

I'm guessing OP is still raging over missing out on his/her course in Trinity by 10 points in August. It's OK, you'll get over it eventually.

Drained_Empty · 07-11-2013 06:52PM

The problem here is that a fairly legitimate critique on TCD is met by current and recent TCD graduates with a massive amount of resistance. Why is that? Because to deny TCD is a great university is to deny yourself to be a Great student or Great Graduate. Furthermore, ignoring the obvious bias and vested interest of the respondents, very few people have any experience of multiple universities, national and international.

Another common mistake for people to make is to read too much into those university rankings nonsense. They are really a measure of post-graduate impact of the university and really reflect very little of the undergraduate experience. So most of the people involved in this thread are approaching it from an undergraduate perspective so a lot of confusion arises.

Irish third level education is really in the same boat as Irish Soccer. Painfully painfully medicore with some delusions of grandeur from a significant core of wishful thinkers. In fact all aspects of irish education are painfully mediocre or sub-par, despite what people would lead you to believe.

one of the only reasons we haven't sunk entirely off the charts is because there is still a significant amount of government spending in the sector, pseudo free fees and grants and all that jazz.

the lad who said tcd students getting head hunted by the likes of morgan stanley, while try, is basically the biggest condemnation of a university i could expect to hear. It means that TCD has a high density of middle class banker type people who are perfect for that soulless corporate model.

sganyfx · 07-11-2013 07:16PM

Drained_Empty wrote: »

The problem here is that a fairly legitimate critique on TCD is met by current and recent TCD graduates with a massive amount of resistance. Why is that? Because to deny TCD is a great university is to deny yourself to be a Great student or Great Graduate. Furthermore, ignoring the obvious bias and vested interest of the respondents, very few people have any experience of multiple universities, national and international.

Another common mistake for people to make is to read too much into those university rankings nonsense. They are really a measure of post-graduate impact of the university and really reflect very little of the undergraduate experience. So most of the people involved in this thread are approaching it from an undergraduate perspective so a lot of confusion arises.

Irish third level education is really in the same boat as Irish Soccer. Painfully painfully medicore with some delusions of grandeur from a significant core of wishful thinkers. In fact all aspects of irish education are painfully mediocre or sub-par, despite what people would lead you to believe.

one of the only reasons we haven't sunk entirely off the charts is because there is still a significant amount of government spending in the sector, pseudo free fees and grants and all that jazz.

the lad who said tcd students getting head hunted by the likes of morgan stanley, while try, is basically the biggest condemnation of a university i could expect to hear. It means that TCD has a high density of middle class banker type people who are perfect for that soulless corporate model.

So having the most academically selective companies on the planet targeting your university is a bad thing? England is easily the second best country on the planet for high ranked universities, and only six of them are targeted by those firms: Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, LSE, Durham and Warwick. So being on terms with them in terms of firms recruiting actively from the university, is a pretty good thing.

Drained_Empty · 07-11-2013 07:22PM

sganyfx wrote: »

So having the most academically selective companies on the planet targeting your university is a bad thing? England is easily the second best country on the planet for high ranked universities, and only six of them are targeted by those firms: Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, LSE, Durham and Warwick. So being on terms with them in terms of firms recruiting actively from the university, is a pretty good thing.

They're not academically selective. Unless you mean having a good 2.1 is acadmeically selective. Which in trinity speak, is about 68% average in your subjects. Do you consider that high?

Your entire measure of university quality is fatally flawed. Recruitment by wanker firms? Google, ibm, ms, deutche bank, intel, etc. etc.? Would you get over yourself.

Basically these companies need literate people who are malleable to their corporate structure and attitude. Young and enthuisastic, willing to bend over and do 70 hour weeks to meet project deadlines. These are people living in the city of londen wearing cheap suits off saville row, walking around in coats talking on iphones. They are making money for massive corporate entities who basically do few little for the community or planet. Are you the type of person who will be delighted with himself to be 30 and making 80 grand a year working in iT/business/finance/etc. ?

would ya? well you make me sick and I am glad i am not one of you.

our outcome measurables are obviously so different we can't have a reasonable conversation on this so i will ignore u in future.

sganyfx · 07-11-2013 08:03PM

Drained_Empty wrote: »

They're not academically selective. Unless you mean having a good 2.1 is acadmeically selective. Which in trinity speak, is about 68% average in your subjects. Do you consider that high?

Your entire measure of university quality is fatally flawed. Recruitment by wanker firms? Google, ibm, ms, deutche bank, intel, etc. etc.? Would you get over yourself.

Basically these companies need literate people who are malleable to their corporate structure and attitude. Young and enthuisastic, willing to bend over and do 70 hour weeks to meet project deadlines. These are people living in the city of londen wearing cheap suits off saville row, walking around in coats talking on iphones. They are making money for massive corporate entities who basically do few little for the community or planet. Are you the type of person who will be delighted with himself to be 30 and making 80 grand a year working in iT/business/finance/etc. ?

would ya? well you make me sick and I am glad i am not one of you.

our outcome measurables are obviously so different we can't have a reasonable conversation on this so i will ignore u in future.

If all they want is someone with a 2.1 from any university with a good work ethic, why do target universities exist? Since they select certain universities clearly those universities must offer the best candidates for the most selective jobs.

Jumbotron · 07-11-2013 08:29PM

Is working for a corporation in London what the children of the South Dublin middle classes aspire to?

You'll soon realise:
- a room in Clapham alongside fellow Irish graduates will set you back £700 a month
- the tube will suck the life out of you
- being Irish does not get you into the social set, despite your preconcieved ideas that everyone loves the Irish (Canary Wharf wasn't that long ago)
- earning £35k a year will not get you very far
- working 70 hours a week is not fun
- you'll probably want to keep your parents on speed dial to bail you out towards the end of the month
- achieving the life that your parents achieved is becoming more and more unattainable
- the most driven and sociopathic people in the world are attracted to London like flies to ****. They weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth and will eat you for breakfast if it helps them move up a notch on the social standing hierarchy
- entry level jobs in media/law are for those who can afford the salary

Still, you'll get to wear an M&S suit, talk on the latest iPhone and pretend to the folks back home via Facebook that you have achieved the "perfect life". You may even adopt a real English twang (as opposed to a Trinity one) after 10 years (if you don't end up in front of a tube before then).

If you can avoid the Paddy trap and create a bubble for yourself in the environment I described above, I have the utmost respect for you. One can do incredibly well in London if you have your head screwed on. So what's the point of this post? Well, a degree from Trinity College, Dublin is no guarantee of a pass into the middle classes. Everyone has a HETAC level 8 from a mediocre university these days.

Ravelleman · 07-11-2013 09:31PM

Jumbotron wrote: »

Everyone has a HETAC level 8 from a mediocre university these days.

Pray tell, where is your degree from?

Mediocrity

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