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Russell Brand preaching revolution on Paxman Last Night

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    #212
    sonny jim bob jones
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 175 ✭✭sonny jim bob jones


    Russell Brand is a complete ****head.


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    #213
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Da Shins Kelly wrote: »
    And everyone just refusing to vote? Never going to happen. And anyway, the people who have all the bad ideas are being the most vocal and voting all the time and that's the reason nothing's changing.

    If I'm given the choice of voting for Eastenders or Coronation street I'm not pushed about voting.

    Now give me the option of voting on whether bond-holders should be paid back, or British/German/French banks, or if we can introduce new laws that allow us to seize the property and assets of bankers, property speculators, failed politicians and failed civil servants and, not only am I voting, but I'm going door-to-door to get others out too.


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    #214
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    I doubt Russell Brand is seen as "dangerous" to the establishment. It's not the 50s and Britain isn't a fundamentalist christian society.
    Politicians actually like to be seen as getting down with the youth.


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    #215
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    I doubt Russell Brand is seen as "dangerous" to the establishment.

    Russell Brand is a modern day 'Jester'. He gets summoned by the King (BBC) so that his legitimate criticisms of the self-perpetuating structures of power can be stigmatised as those of a fool and hypocrite.

    If anything the granting of access to the public consciousness of RB and 'his' criticisms is evidence of the dangerousness of the ideas. Let the fool and hypocrite make these arguments and we can dismiss them more easily.
    Regarded as pets or mascots, they served not simply to amuse but to criticise their master or mistress and their guests. Queen Elizabeth (reigned 1558–1603) is said to have rebuked one of her fools for being insufficiently severe with her. Excessive behaviour, however, could lead to a fool being whipped, as Lear threatens to whip his fool.

    The fool's status was one of privilege within a royal or noble household. His folly could be regarded as the raving of a madman.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester#Political_significance


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    #216
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Carlos Roca wrote: »

    Now give me the option of voting on whether bond-holders should be paid back, or British/German/French banks, or if we can introduce new laws that allow us to seize the property and assets of bankers, property speculators, failed politicians and failed civil servants and, not only am I voting, but I'm going door-to-door to get others out too.

    That is a terrible idea which basically amounts to mob rule.


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    #217
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    jank wrote: »
    That is a terrible idea which basically amounts to mob rule.

    Just say it.

    'I hate democracy and justice'.


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    #218
    Dempsey
    Registered Users Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    At the moment apathy is the biggest issue. You cant have an opinion let alone lead people unless you have an infallible solution to the the worlds problems

    This is the biggest issue that prevents meaningful change.


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    #219
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Dempsey wrote: »
    At the moment apathy is the biggest issue.

    Why though? People feel powerless. We don't get to vote on issues that we care about. One poster* here describes the reigning in of systemic corruption as 'Mob rule' - one wonders how much the current system serves him.

    Why shouldn't people who cause economic destruction be made destitute? They profit from booms so should lose from recessions, especially those who caused them.

    *granted, he shouldn't be taken seriously.


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    #220
    Dempsey
    Registered Users Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    Why though? People feel powerless. We don't get to vote on issues that we care about. One poster* here describes the reigning in of systemic corruption as 'Mob rule' - one wonders how much the current system serves him.

    Why shouldn't people who cause economic destruction be made destitute? They profit from booms so should lose from recessions, especially those who caused them.

    *granted, he shouldn't be taken seriously.

    I can't define it no more than Russell Brand define a better system than Paxman asked him about.

    You dont have to have the ultimate solution at hand to know & question that there is a fundamental problem to be solved.


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    #221
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Dempsey wrote: »
    You dont have to have the ultimate solution at hand to know & question that there is a fundamental problem to be solved.

    Oh I agree. The thing is though that those who derive their privileges from the current system have convinced themselves it is a burden to them. They're so duped they actually argue against their own interests. Ask any randroid moron and they'll passionately defend their views.


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    #222
    Dempsey
    Registered Users Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    Oh I agree. The thing is though that those who derive their privileges from the current system have convinced themselves it is a burden to them. They're so duped they actually argue against their own interests. Ask any randroid moron and they'll passionately defend their views.

    And surely they are a minority, not a majority. Whether they can tell there arse from their elbow is irrelevant, so are excuses for their position tbh.


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    #223
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    Just say it.

    'I hate democracy and justice'.

    Yawn, really change the tune. What you want is some retrospective type of 'justice' where we just vote to lock people up, take their property even if they have not broken any laws. Direct democracy for Ireland anyway would make the country ungovernable. Its mob rule where the pound of flesh is more important than the constitution.

    We already have too much populism. Bet you thought Berte was a great fella back in the day!


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    #224
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    Why though? People feel powerless. We don't get to vote on issues that we care about. One poster* here describes the reigning in of systemic corruption as 'Mob rule' - one wonders how much the current system serves him.
    [/SIZE]

    I really think you should take reading lessons if that post is directed at me. Direct democracy as I mentioned would be a disaster for Ireland. What makes you think by implementing direct democracy would get rid of 'systemic corruption'? Are you Ben Gilroy™ by any chance?


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    #225
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    jank wrote: »
    What you want is some retrospective type of 'justice'

    All justice is retrospective you silly little person. I'm talking about preventing economic destruction in the first place and this might be aided by the fear of being destitute because of your actions.
    Direct democracy for Ireland anyway would make the country ungovernable. Its mob rule where the pound of flesh is more important than the consititution.

    Just say it 'I hate hate democracy - I hate justice' .


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    #226
    lufties
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    jank wrote: »
    I really think you should take reading lessons if that post is directed at me. Direct democracy as I mentioned would be a disaster for Ireland. What makes you think by implementing direct democracy would get rid of 'systemic corruption'? Are you Ben Gilroy™ by any chance?


    Jank are you a party shill? or a civil servant perhaps? how the hell could you post the way you do ,and be any other way, people like you are part of the problem, perhaps its stockholm sydrome. In today's world we have had our freedom(s) eroded, just look to the cesspit U.S and see whats going on there with regard to wealth distribution and their puppet show administration.

    With all that is gone down in Ireland over the last few years, I can't believe how anyone could be so stupid to support any of the establishment parties. Honestly, when I see a photo Gilmore or kenny, I start to feel physically sick. Power to the people, not self serving, greedy dictators.


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    #227
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Dempsey wrote: »
    You dont have to have the ultimate solution at hand to know & question that there is a fundamental problem to be solved.
    Granted D, but it would be refreshing to see some solutions discussed. Pointing out inequity is good, complaining about inequity is good, but failing to suggest a better way makes it all noise and nothing will change. Saying that some aspects of society are bad and we must change is a cry that's hoarse from every generation shouting it, but as I say show me the plan.

    As for not voting en masse? Can't see it happening. Plus the "can't be bothered to vote" crowd tends to winnow out some of the people who shouldn't vote. Personally I think the automatic right to vote isn't so hot. Voting should be seen as a privilege and should entail more than than just the ability to reach a certain age. Again me personally I'd have it so a citizen would require passing a simple exam to get the vote. Nothing difficult, really simple questions like who is the current president, who was the previous incumbent, name three of your local candidates, that sorta thing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #228
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    lufties wrote: »
    Power to the people.
    Again another phrase heard often, looks great on the banners, but ultimately empty.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #229
    lufties
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Again another phrase heard often, looks great on the banners, but ultimately empty.


    So that makes it wrong, does it? If there was less greed and more Altruism out there it would mean something. By the way having read(barely) some of your extremely long winded posts, you do seem to be pro everything establishment, would I be right?


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    #230
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    lufties wrote: »
    So that makes it wrong, does it?
    Not wrong, but not very useful.
    If there was less greed and more Altruism out there it would mean something.
    True, so how do you go about making that happen?
    By the way having read(barely) some of your extremely long winded posts, you do seem to be pro everything establishment, would I be right?
    You couldn't be more wrong.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #231
    lufties
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not wrong, but not very useful. True, so how do you go about making that happen? You couldn't be more wrong.

    All we as people have is a vote and we need to use it to oust the parasites in power. Protest isn't working it seems, and people dont have time to take action mostly because they are crippled from working long hours or find change is beyond they're control.

    I don't know how to fix the world and rid it of greed and poverty, but I do think we could start locally(Ireland) and vote in an educated manner.

    We need a government that will look after the national interest, not one full of spin to get votes and on the other hand crucify the people to get browning points in germany.


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    #232
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    lufties wrote: »
    All we as people have is a vote and we need to use it to oust the parasites in power. Protest isn't working it seems, and people dont have time to take action mostly because they are crippled from working long hours or find change is beyond they're control.
    OK but who do your replace the parasites with? That's a big problem right there.
    I don't know how to fix the world and rid it of greed and poverty, but I do think we could start locally(Ireland) and vote in an educated manner.
    Again I agree, but this requires a politically engaged and educated electorate, who have a decent choice of candidates.
    We need a government that will look after the national interest, not one full of spin to get votes and on the other hand crucify the people to get browning points in germany.
    Part of the problem with democracy is the need to get votes to get in in the first place. This begets spin as a near given. Look at the extreme example of this in the US. Then you have the national interest problem. Irelands voters are incredibly parochial. It's much more about the guy who fixes the potholes on your road than the wider needs of the nation, hence we get local chancers* working on national problems. That would need to change too. That won't come from the people, at least at first, we'd need to radically change the structures and how we vote for national politicians.




    *some even with convictions for fraud getting in spite of if not because of such cute hoorism. Indeed history would show that it is often beneficial to a candidate to show cute hoorism to gain reelection.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #233
    lufties
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Wibbs wrote: »
    OK but who do your replace the parasites with? That's a big problem right there.

    Again I agree, but this requires a politically engaged and educated electorate, who have a decent choice of candidates.

    Part of the problem with democracy is the need to get votes to get in in the first place. This begets spin as a near given. Look at the extreme example of this in the US. Then you have the national interest problem. Irelands voters are incredibly parochial. It's much more about the guy who fixes the potholes on your road than the wider needs of the nation, hence we get local chancers* working on national problems. That would need to change too. That won't come from the people, at least at first, we'd need to radically change the structures and how we vote for national politicians.



    First up I would say my first choice would be direct democracy, its a differerent way of doing things and it gives the public a way of deciding their own destiny. Representative democracy isnt working.

    I'm not fully sure that I'd give my vote to Sinn fein, but I do think Pearse doherty is/will be a good leader.

    The principal of my vote( I dont even live in Europe let alone Ireland), will be change, not populism, and this goodie and that, but real change.


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    #234
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Dempsey wrote: »
    At the moment apathy is the biggest issue. You cant have an opinion let alone lead people unless you have an infallible solution to the the worlds problems

    This is the biggest issue that prevents meaningful change.
    It's worse than apathy though, because even the available solutions are held outside of acceptable discourse and disparaged - maintaining things as they are, and maintaining the current status of political power, is equally about controlling what topics do and do not qualify as acceptable/'serious' discussion, in media and politics.

    The range of topics that always receive a response, where you get treated as 'unserious', coupled with disparagement, that are usable as solutions (to the current crisis and/or to future ones):
    - Using EU bonds to fund debt (either to offer lower interest rates, or to have Europe as whole pay it back), likely coupled with public works projects

    - Creation of a public bank (which again can offer lower interest rates on debt), at either a local or EU level (which can both fund public works projects)

    - Create money, to provide full employment on public works projects and boost aggregate demand (increasing demand at same time as supply, avoiding inflation), and remove money from circulation using taxes (overall effect, is no more need to increase national debt in any EU country, or fund punitive interest rates on that)

    - Debt forgiveness or a 'debt jubilee' for the population, to reduce the crippling effect of private debt (far more important than public debt), which is holding down aggregate demand - and in general, this helps boost aggregate demand

    - Leave the EU and return to a local currency, and devalue the currency (preferably aided by leveraging the new currency, with a public bank funding public works)

    - Devaluation in general (including within the EU)

    - Investigate fraud in banking/finance and put people in prison, so there are consequences against fraud (instead of incentivizing it, by showing people can get away with it)

    - Regulate banking/finance to prevent another crisis, instead of ensuring another crisis, by not enacting any real reform

    - Have government actually seriously discuss or promote any of this, within the EU

    - Co-operate directly with other EU nations, and examine splitting the union


    There's plenty of ability to both pay for any of this sustainably, and to get out of the economic crisis while at it (restoring full employment along the way), but this stuff (usually the poster putting it forward) gets attacked/disparaged and held outside of acceptable discussion, so that most of the time it's not even possible to talk about (the original points usually get lost in the shítstorm such discussion generates).

    We keep going on the same course, based on the promise (lie) that recovery is just around the corner, but it never is (and we have yet to see the issue of unsustainable private debt explode yet).

    This helps prevent any real discussion from taking place, because people don't accurately see just how bad things may get, and how (as undesirable as they may look) the available solutions are actually a better alternative in the long run.


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    #235
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    lufties wrote: »
    First up I would say my first choice would be direct democracy, its a differerent way of doing things and it gives the public a way of deciding their own destiny. Representative democracy isnt working.
    OK but it's damned hard to implement once you get to a certain size of electorate. AFAIK the Swiss operate a form of this, maybe emulate their system? However since the current representative democracy is what we have and turkeys won't vote for xmas I can't see this idea ever happening, unless we had an actual people on the streets revolution. I would argue for more referenda though. Thankfully because of our constitution we get to vote on changes to it and hence we had the EU referenda down the years while the rest of the EU nations had far less choice, or none. Then again when we voted "incorrectly"...
    I'm not fully sure that I'd give my vote to Sinn fein, but I do think Pearse doherty is/will be a good leader.
    I like Pearse myself, but can't like the party behind him. And no I'm not trotting out the tired "ah sure they're all ra heads", I have grave issues with what passes for their economic theories.
    The principal of my vote( I dont even live in Europe let alone Ireland), will be change, not populism, and this goodie and that, but real change.
    Cool, but take direct democracy, that's arguably more populist in action. What happens to the minority view in such a system?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #236
    lufties
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Wibbs wrote: »
    OK but it's damned hard to implement once you get to a certain size of electorate. AFAIK the Swiss operate a form of this, maybe emulate their system? However since the current representative democracy is what we have and turkeys won't vote for xmas I can't see this idea ever happening, unless we had an actual people on the streets revolution. I would argue for more referenda though. Thankfully because of our constitution we get to vote on changes to it and hence we had the EU referenda down the years while the rest of the EU nations had far less choice, or none. Then again when we voted "incorrectly"...

    I like Pearse myself, but can't like the party behind him. And no I'm not trotting out the tired "ah sure they're all ra heads", I have grave issues with what passes for their economic theories.

    Cool, but take direct democracy, that's arguably more populist in action. What happens to the minority view in such a system?

    Well DDI are not getting the media courage they need for a start, and I would't say they are populist, The minority in a system would have to lump it i'd imagine, but it seems to work in switzerland. Also its a damn sight better than enda kenny feathering him own nest at the sacrifice of the majority living in Ireland.

    Yea i'm not completely sold on sinn fein, Steven donnelly seems to be on the ball as an independent. I think Irish are way too conservative to vote the likes of boyd barrett in.


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    #237
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    lufties wrote: »
    Yea i'm not completely sold on sinn fein, Steven donnelly seems to be on the ball as an independent. I think Irish are way too conservative to vote the likes of boyd barrett in.
    I've a lot of time for Steven Donnelly, a man actually qualified in international finance surrounded by failed teachers. Boyd Barrett on the other hand I think is a complete and utter... well I'b be polite. :)

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #238
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Democracy...the worst system apart from all the others.

    Do you want a society that's fair? The more you put in the more you should get out.

    Or do you want a society that is more un darwinian which forces charity to the weaker?

    Or something in the middle?


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    #239
    The Pheasant2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭The Pheasant2


    I must say I'm a big fan of Russell Brand, I always enjoy his stand up routines and films and I've always been certain that he's an erudite and talented individual. However, in this case I simply can't endorse his views:

    Encouraging voter apathy, especially from a person with such scope and influence over young people (cue Helen Lovejoy) is downright irresponsible.

    How can you refuse to vote and then complain that nothing gets changed?

    Many people say they don't vote because they aren't given the options they'd like on the ballot or that they wouldn't choose any of the options provided.

    Why not spoil your vote then? A spoiled vote is still a vote. If all the people who choose not to vote for the reasons outlined above spoiled their votes; it would at least signal to the government that a sizeable number of the electorate are dissatisfied. Doing nothing results in nothing.

    Judging by some of the posts in this thread you'd swear we were living under the shackles of the aristocracy in 18th century France rather than in a modern, first world democracy.
    lufties wrote: »
    In today's world we have had our freedom(s) eroded,
    How can you possibly argue this? We live in the most liberal and equal society in history. Sure there's still big problems regarding inequality, especially with regards to wealth but things will change provided the people call for it. That's what democracy means: literally "rule of the people", and deciding not to exercise your right to bring about this change will only perpetuate unequal distribution of wealth.


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    #240
    iliketomoveit
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭iliketomoveit


    Robert Webb AKA "The other one from Peep Show" wrote an interesting article directed towards Russell over this:
    http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/10/russell-choosing-vote-most-british-kind-revolution-there


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    #241
    Tribb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 ✭Tribb


    I have to laugh at people who think we can get rid of "greed". We simply aren't going to change human nature, people for the most part act through self interest. This assumption should be a pillar of any political system we wish to implement.


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