Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1

Auldloon · 23-10-2013 09:34AM

Kenny Logins wrote: »

"Abducted by killer spiders" tomorrow.

"Deadly web ensnares child"

Annasopra · 23-10-2013 09:36AM

conorhal wrote: »

Irish Travellers have an 80% unemployment rate, and that's in a country in which the share the same language, ethnicity and access to education as the rest of the population, none of which megre advantages the Roma posess, so what rate of employment do you imagine the achieve? My guess would be substatially higher then the Irish Travellers.

Fair enough you're just guessing

Santa Cruz · 23-10-2013 09:37AM

AckwelFoley wrote: »

Id rather admit to dressing up in a gimp suit while watching gay porn than reading the Star.

No change today for you then

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 10:35AM

I hear there are reports that the mother being investigated DID give birth to a child in the Coombe on the day that she told Gardai.

This could mean that they are telling the truth and that the child in care is their child and will hopefully be returned to them, assuming they are caring for her adequately.

It could also mean that the women did give birth to a child at the Coombe on that date but that it is a different child - as we know that the gardai were shown documents (birth cert and passport) for a child but they were not satisfied that these were legitimate.

Jury is still out on this one so. The DNA results (reported to be back this afternoon) should clear this up.

everdead.ie · 23-10-2013 10:38AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I hear there are reports that the mother being investigated DID give birth to a child in the Coombe on the day that she told Gardai.

This could mean that they are telling the truth and that the child in care is their child and will hopefully be returned to them, assuming they are caring for her adequately.

It could also mean that the women did give birth to a child at the Coombe on that date but that it is a different child - as we know that the gardai were shown documents (birth cert and passport) for a child but they were not satisfied that these were legitimate.

Jury is still out on this one so. The DNA results (reported to be back this afternoon) should clear this up.

DNA results will take much longer I would expect Ireland has a massive back log for this kind of thing.

Dazzler0911 · 23-10-2013 10:39AM

Said there that they'll be out later today, the DNA results that is

Absoluvely · 23-10-2013 10:40AM

everdead.ie wrote: »

DNA results will take much longer I would expect Ireland has a massive back log for this kind of thing.

I think they mentioned on Prime Time that these DNA tests were being fast-tracked

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 10:42AM

Absoluvely wrote: »

I think they mentioned on Prime Time that these DNA tests were being fast-tracked

Reported on RTE Radio and (I think) Today FM this morning that these are being fast-tracked. Will certainly be known within 48 hours and (according to RTE) will likely be known today, given the seriousness of keeping a child away from her parents.

Drexel · 23-10-2013 10:45AM

Anyone else find it a bit mad that the hse can take a child on what isn't much more then a hunch and a news story?

mikom · 23-10-2013 10:48AM

jonny666 wrote: »

Anyone else find it a bit mad that the hse can take a child on what isn't much more then a hunch and a news story?

If a a hunch and a news story was good enough to invade Iraq......

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 10:49AM

jonny666 wrote: »

Anyone else find it a bit mad that the hse can take a child on what isn't much more then a hunch and a news story?

They took her based on the advice of the Gardai, under the 1991 Child Care Act (I think I have that right). The Gardai weren't satisfied, after a two hour conversation with the parents, that the child was really theirs. I think, if a Guard called to my door, I could satisfy him with documents and facts, within 5 minutes that my children were, in fact mine. Anything else might cause legitimate suspicion.

If the child does turn out to be theirs - inevitably, people will say that the Gardai went WAY over the top based on prejudice and media stories from other countries. But, I say, if in genuine doubt over the welfare of the child, it's best to investigate and be sure! The days of shrugging shoulders and saying "ah sure the kids are fine" when faced with POTENTIAL child safety issues should be over.

Boombastic · 23-10-2013 10:54AM

jonny666 wrote: »

Anyone else find it a bit mad that the hse can take a child on what isn't much more then a hunch and a news story?

And no confirmation by the hospital, sure they will take your children away if you look at them wrong...

Sin City · 23-10-2013 10:55AM

What ever the case maybe, the child has to be taken off that family
Even if they are telling the truth, it wasn't a legal adoption so the gardai should investigate it further and that usually means removing the child from the family.

It does sound fairly dodgey alright though, it could be possible that it was another Roma couple who gave up their child to this couple, but part of me doubts this is the case

The fact that they could not satisfy the gaurds with their evidence make them look guilty but who knows

Chairman Meow · 23-10-2013 10:56AM

jonny666 wrote: »

Anyone else find it a bit mad that the hse can take a child on what isn't much more then a hunch and a news story?

And if it turned out the child was being abused, people would say "isnt it weird the Gardai got all these tip offs and did nothing? Bloody Gardai shower of useless...". They cant win in this situation.

Tony EH · 23-10-2013 10:58AM

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

The whole thing is so weird. Am just wondering what the Roma stand to gain from kidnapping these kids? That little girl in Greece was with them for a number of years it seems, so it doesn't look like they wanted to 'sell her off'? And not to sound bad but if they were gonna kidnap a kid and claim it's their own then why didn't they go for less conspicuous looking kids - someone with black hair or more sallow skin who would fit in better with their group?? I would not be surprised if it did transpire that someone gave their kid up to the Roma.

I was talking with a few Italian friends in Rome a few years ago, one of whom had a relative in the police. I'd mentioned that some Roma tried to scam me outside the Louvre in Paris and my Ialian mate said that they had had terrible trouble with them in Rome. They cause all sorts of hassle. The guy that had a relative in the police mentioned that they had been investigatng child kidnappings and trading involving the Roma. I was told that they engage in this practice to essentially mix up the genepool, as they intermarry a lot.

All very disturbing.

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 10:59AM

Sin City wrote: »

What ever the case maybe, the child has to be taken off that family
Even if they are telling the truth, it wasn't a legal adoption so the gardai should investigate it further and that usually means removing the child from the family.

It does sound fairly dodgey alright though, it could be possible that it was another Roma couple who gave up their child to this couple, but part of me doubts this is the case

The fact that they could not satisfy the gaurds with their evidence make them look guilty but who knows

You're mixing up the Greece and Dublin cases. The Greek family admit it's not their child but that they were given it by the real mother (Illegal adoption) whereas the Dublin family are adament that the little girl is their biological daughter and they are cooperating with DNA tests to prove this.

TheDoc · 23-10-2013 11:06AM

All coming out that it will most likely be confirmed this child is infact related to the parents.

Looking back on page 1, not only the media in this country needing to have a look at themselves at their cheap racist swipes, alot of posters here too. This is only a story because of the term "Roma" constantly in the headlines.

When the headline should have been Guardai snatch child from family based on anonymous tip of no substance

Curly Judge · 23-10-2013 11:13AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

They took her based on the advice of the Gardai, under the 1991 Child Care Act (I think I have that right). The Gardai weren't satisfied, after a two hour conversation with the parents, that the child was really theirs. I think, if a Guard called to my door, I could satisfy him with documents and facts, within 5 minutes that my children were, in fact mine. Anything else might cause legitimate suspicion.

If the child does turn out to be theirs - inevitably, people will say that the Gardai went WAY over the top based on prejudice and media stories from other countries. But, I say, if in genuine doubt over the welfare of the child, it's best to investigate and be sure! The days of shrugging shoulders and saying "ah sure the kids are fine" when faced with POTENTIAL child safety issues should be over.

I agree!
It pains me [as someone with a sceptical attitude towards authority] to have to take the side of the Garda and HSE in this case.
The jury is still out on the DNA evidence, but if it transpires that the
child biologically belongs to the parents who claim her, I still don't think that a serious breach of the law will have taken place.
What if the report had been ignored by the Garda and a few years later a situation like the Roscommon child abuse saga came to light?
"Concerned Citizens Ltd" would be on here screaming blue murder about the inefficiency of our child protection services.
The instant press leaks worry me and I would like to know how, in possible future cases, the child could be left with the parents - perhaps with a child care worker and a Garda staying in the house while the evidence is sifted?

everdead.ie · 23-10-2013 11:16AM

TheDoc wrote: »

All coming out that it will most likely be confirmed this child is infact related to the parents.

Looking back on page 1, not only the media in this country needing to have a look at themselves at their cheap racist swipes, alot of posters here too. This is only a story because of the term "Roma" constantly in the headlines.

When the headline should have been Guardai snatch child from family based on anonymous tip of no substance

If the Gardai asked for proof the child was theirs and they were unable to provide this information both no record of the child being born where and when they said and a birth certificate "eventually" produced but it wasn't satisfactory(ie there was something that didn't add up with it).

In this case the Gardai have taken the proper course of action. If they child had been left with the parents while they await DNA results they could easily disappear.

It is a horrible thing to happen to both parents and child but I really don't think they could do anything else if the parents couldn't provide satisfactory proof?

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 11:19AM

TheDoc wrote: »

All coming out that it will most likely be confirmed this child is infact related to the parents.

Looking back on page 1, not only the media in this country needing to have a look at themselves at their cheap racist swipes, alot of posters here too. This is only a story because of the term "Roma" constantly in the headlines.

When the headline should have been Guardai snatch child from family based on anonymous tip of no substance

Text below is from the RTE News website right now.

Explains why the child was taken into care. Hardly true to say that there is "no substance" to this.

A similar situation could arise e.g. if a white Irish couple suddenly arrived back from a holiday with a black child that they claim to have "adopted" over the course of a 2 week holiday. People might rightly think this unconvincing and report them.

People shouldn't stay quiet about POTENTIAL child safety concerns for fear that it will upset innocent people.

Gardaí removed the child from a Roma family in Tallaght pending an investigation under the Child Care Act.
The girl's parents have told gardaí the child is their own and are co-operating with the investigation.
The results of the DNA tests are expected to resolve the matter within the next 48 hours.
The child was removed from the family because her features, blonde hair and blue eyes, contrasted with the other children in the home.
The parents told gardaí the child was born in a Dublin maternity hospital in 2006, however officers were not satisfied with the explanation or documents produced as corroboration.
The family are co-operating with the garda investigation and have agreed to provide DNA samples.
These are to be analysed by the Forensic Science Laboratory in Dublin as a matter of urgency.
The child will remain in the care of the Health Service Executive until her lineage is definitively established.

strandroad · 23-10-2013 11:21AM

Curly Judge wrote: »

I agree!
It pains me [as someone with a sceptical attitude towards authority] to have to take the side of the Garda and HSE in this case.
The jury is still out on the DNA evidence, but if it transpires that the
child biologically belongs to the parents who claim her, I still don't think that a serious breach of the law will have taken place.
What if the report had been ignored by the Garda and a few years later a situation like the Roscommon child abuse saga came to light?
"Concerned Citizens Ltd" would be on here screaming blue murder about the inefficiency of our child protection services.
The instant press leaks worry me and I would like to know how, in possible future cases, the child could be left with the parents - perhaps with a child care worker and a Garda staying in the house while the evidence is sifted?

It didn't have to be ignored but there are other ways to check it than to take the child away; she was apparently shocked and could not understand what's happening. If there was a risk of the family fleeing during the investigation they could have got a live-in social worker assigned or a Garda escort. There were no reports of the child being abused in any way so the immediate removal of the child feels like major overreaction.

strandroad · 23-10-2013 11:25AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Explains why the child was taken into care. Hardly true to say that there is "no substance" to this.

A similar situation could arise e.g. if a white Irish couple suddenly arrived back from a holiday with a black child that they claim to have "adopted" over the course of a 2 week holiday. People might rightly think this unconvincing and report them.

I agree but would the child be removed while the parents sort out the documents if they are unclear? Or would it be seen as unnecessary force?

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 11:29AM

mhge wrote: »

I agree but would the child be removed while the parents sort out the documents if they are unclear? Or would it be seen as unnecessary force?

Perhaps it would be better, perhaps, if the mother and child were placed in a secure environment - maybe just a hotel room, until it's sorted out. Less trauma for child and parents, assuming they are her parents.

But I suspect HSE policy is to put the child "in care".

Absoluvely · 23-10-2013 11:34AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Perhaps it would be better, perhaps, if the mother and child were placed in a secure environment - maybe just a hotel room, until it's sorted out. Less trauma for child and parents, assuming they are her parents.

But I suspect HSE policy is to put the child "in care".

Tut tut

Careful now

Curly Judge · 23-10-2013 11:35AM

mhge wrote: »

It didn't have to be ignored but there are other ways to check it than to take the child away; she was apparently shocked and could not understand what's happening. If there was a risk of the family fleeing during the investigation they could have got a live-in social worker assigned or a Garda escort. There were no reports of the child being abused in any way so the immediate removal of the child feels like major overreaction.

A major overreaction as opposed to a major underreaction?
Isn't that what it comes down to?
So long as the decision was made on the basis of fair and reasonable judgment, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
If it can be proven that the judgment was predicated on biased, racist, ignorant or uninformed motives, then by all means, throw the book at them.
After all, isn't that what it comes down to: judgements made by fallible humans.

TMC99 · 23-10-2013 11:36AM

everdead.ie wrote: »

If the Gardai asked for proof the child was theirs and they were unable to provide this information both no record of the child being born where and when they said and a birth certificate "eventually" produced but it wasn't satisfactory(ie there was something that didn't add up with it).

In this case it appears they produced a birth cert and a passport for the child - both documents had a different first name than what the child is being called - but that's not particularly unusual, plenty of people have a different legal name than what they are called everyday (Sean/John, William/Bill, Richard/Dick..). The Independent managed to corroborate the parents story within a very short space of time though - here - I do agree that there has to be a better way than removing a child from their 'family' -why not let the mother move into the care facility with her until resolved ?

iguana · 23-10-2013 11:37AM

I find it hard to believe that in the 21st century you couldn't show a child was yours in minutes. If someone questioned my son being mine it would take a few minutes to show them a series of photos starting with me pregnant, then him in the hospital with me, his father and grandparents, followed by pictures of him growing up. All the pictures are time-stamped by the device they were taken on. And even accounting for differing cultures and that pregnancy and childbirth are perhaps less celebrated in Roma culture, surely the sheer unusualness of a couple of Indian origin having such a pale baby would have warranted taking pictures after her birth?

welkin · 23-10-2013 11:40AM

I blame Fine Gael and the Labour coalition

Curly Judge · 23-10-2013 11:54AM

iguana wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that in the 21st century you couldn't show a child was yours in minutes. If someone questioned my son being mine it would take a few minutes to show them a series of photos starting with me pregnant, then him in the hospital with me, his father and grandparents, followed by pictures of him growing up. All the pictures are time-stamped by the device they were taken on. And even accounting for differing cultures and that pregnancy and childbirth are perhaps less celebrated in Roma culture, surely the sheer unusualness of a couple of Indian origin having such a pale baby would have warranted taking pictures after her birth?

A cousin of mine is called Theresa but everybody knows her as Dodo.
When she is stopped by the Garda at a checkpoint, or drawing her dole money I bet she doesn't use the Dodo moniker.
Surely a mother or father - even people from another culture and without english as a first language - would have the savvy to use the childs official name in conversation with authority?

I Heart Internet · 23-10-2013 11:58AM

Another child removed from a Roma family in Athlone according to a tweet from Independent.ie

:eek:

Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

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Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN Mod Warning Post #1