People confused by English language

Horrid Henry · 05-10-2013 02:30PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Any opinions on peoples confusion about the ballot papers yesterday. Is it just me or were they fairly straightforward?

They were very difficult to follow...if you're blind and retarded.

I thought that "ABOLITION OF SEANAD...YES OR NO" was especially confusing on the ballot paper.

Horrid Henry · 05-10-2013 02:31PM

Sorry but if you watch the news, read the papers or bothered your hole to read the booklet that we all got, you wouldn't be confused.

An ignorant vote is a dangerous one.

Amirani · 05-10-2013 02:34PM

Is in not generally the case that a NO vote is always to maintain the status quo, and YES is to accept some proposed change?

That said, the ballot paper was hardly difficult to understand.

LordSutch · 05-10-2013 02:36PM

Horrid Henry wrote: »

They were very difficult to follow...if you're blind and retarded.

I'm not sure about being blind and retarded, but certainly [older people and slower people] might have to look at the ballot paper twice, and a little longer to be 100% certain that they were putting the X in the correct box.

I still say that a 'crystal clear' question could have been put as per post #26

ebbsy · 05-10-2013 02:36PM

Anybody who bothered to get up off their ass and go out and vote knew exactly what they
were doing, lets give them a little bit of credit.

YellowFeather · 05-10-2013 02:44PM

Mint Sauce wrote: »

I think it was the court of appeal one that wad not very clear. I had to read it 2-3 times as it did not directly ask of you wanted one created. Infact, if you thought a court of appeal already exsisted, some might think they were asking if you wanted it abolished as well.

I agree. I was speaking to my elderly neighbour before she went to vote, and I told her that the questions would be on the abolition of the Seanad and the creation of a new court of appeal. The Seanad paper was clear enough once read, but "Thirty Third Amendment of the Constitution (Court of Appeal) Bill 2013" is somewhat ambiguous. Would it have been so much effort to add the word "Establishment" in there somewhere? What if the Seanad paper had been phrased "Seanad" instead of "Abolition of Seanad"?

Amirani · 05-10-2013 02:48PM

I'm sure there may be a legal issue if the question was phrased purely as "Do you want to abolish the Seanad?"

Would the Government then be entitled to implement the other measures in the proposed bill without leaving themselves open to some court challenge?

dlouth15 · 05-10-2013 02:53PM

The could have quoted from the bill itself:

to amend the Constitution for the purpose of establishing a court to be called the Court of Appeal

YellowFeather · 05-10-2013 02:55PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

I'm sure there may be a legal issue if the question was phrased purely as "Do you want to abolish the Seanad?"

Would the Government then be entitled to implement the other measures in the proposed bill without leaving themselves open to some court challenge?

But the Seanad paper was entitled "Abolition of Seanad", whereas the Court of Appeal paper was simply entitled "Court of Appeal".

dlouth15 wrote: »

The could have quoted from the bill itself:
to amend the Constitution for the purpose of establishing a court to be called the Court of Appeal

Exactly. I'm not seeing any conspiracy here, but it was pure bad administration not to do so.

nodnod · 05-10-2013 03:35PM

A query on voting cards yesterday in Scoil Tomais National School Laurel Lodge Castleknock D15

I have a major query on the voting card received today in the above school that would lead to major confusion for voters

When I picked up my ballot papers green and white

All it said was

do you want to change Article 32

do you want to change Article 33

On either sheet none mention Seanad or Court Of Appeal

I believe there will be numerous problem votes at this school and it should be monitored ?

especially if you are voting yes, no or no, yes

if you are voting yes , yes or no, no should be ok

I think this should be checked with the Presiding Officer and be explained to the public.

I voted early in the day and I noticed this issue,
My wife voted at 7pm at night in the same place and she to had the same issue.

We did not speak about this until we both met afterwards.

I spoke to other family members and they said in the schools they voted in mentioned senate on the cards and court on the cards. I believe what they say.

I am only querying the ballot papers in the above school

Is there more than one type of ballot papers out for each referendum ?
( I saw the image of ballot papers in the thread earlier on) I know i did not get this ballot paper)

I also met a man this morning he had the same issue as i had?

So any members of public had a similar issue ?

recipio · 05-10-2013 03:46PM

Anybody literate enough to post here will have no problems interpreting the ballot paper.
The trouble is ballot papers should be crystal clear and cater for anybody with language and reading disabilities. Mixing Irish and English, asking to vote on a negative and legalistic jargon are the hallmarks of people who sit too long around mahogany tables dreaming up what is good for us.

Red Kev · 05-10-2013 03:50PM

nodnod wrote: »

A query on voting cards yesterday in Scoil Tomais National School Laurel Lodge Castleknock D15

I have a major query on the voting card received today in the above school that would lead to major confusion for voters

When I picked up my ballot papers green and white

All it said was

do you want to change Article 32

do you want to change Article 33

On either sheet none mention Seanad or Court Of Appeal

.

If you received a ballot paper different from the rest of the country you should contact the returning officer for the constituency in which you voted. They will be able to answer any questions.

cloudatlas · 05-10-2013 03:51PM

I must admit I had to do a double take just to make sure of the statement on the ballet. The writing was tiny, I don't know how someone with a sight impairment would cope. My uncle spent a minute trying to decipher the Irish.

nodnod · 05-10-2013 03:54PM

I have already done this I have written to Referendum Commision, I will await a reply , they probably cannot answer until vote is fully counted in all areas

dlouth15 · 05-10-2013 04:12PM

ebbsy wrote: »

Anybody who bothered to get up off their ass and go out and vote knew exactly what they
were doing, lets give them a little bit of credit.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that everyone was confused. The most that could be said is that poor design may have caused errors among a small minority. These errors would have been on both sides and would cancel out. Nevertheless it was still very poor information design and this needs to be highlighted.

nodnod · 05-10-2013 04:12PM

Just sent email of to returning officer, I wonder will i get a reply.

purplecow1977 · 05-10-2013 04:27PM

Question, considering there are over 14,000 spoiled votes, that seems quite a lot. My brother just realised he put a tick in the box instead of the X. Is his vote spoiled?

Rascasse · 05-10-2013 04:33PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Question, considering there are over 14,000 spoiled votes, that seems quite a lot. My brother just realised he put a tick in the box instead of the X. Is his vote spoiled?

That is OK.

RTE say they even accepted 2 ballots in Dun Laoghaire where no had been ticked and "reform" written on the ballot - to me they should be counted as spoiled.

purplecow1977 · 05-10-2013 04:34PM

Rascasse wrote: »

That is OK.

RTE say they even accepted 2 ballots in Dun Laoghaire where no had been ticked and "reform" written on the ballot - to me they should be counted as spoiled.

Are you sure that's okay? I'm even questioning myself now what I did!

davetherave · 05-10-2013 04:36PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Question, considering there are over 14,000 spoiled votes, that seems quite a lot. My brother just realised he put a tick in the box instead of the X. Is his vote spoiled?

I'd say it should be fine once a clear intent is visible. If there were no other marks in the other boxes then there is no reason why it shouldn't count.

purplecow1977 · 05-10-2013 04:37PM

Phew. I was afraid that if it wasn't followed exactly to the dot that it would be deemed 'spoiled' - any excuse on their part eh!

Rascasse · 05-10-2013 04:37PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Are you sure that's okay? I'm even questioning myself now what I did!

Yep, if they didn't allow the ticks there would be a huge % of spoilt ballots.

Dinner · 05-10-2013 06:37PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Are you sure that's okay? I'm even questioning myself now what I did!

It's already been answered but yeah that's fine. So long as there is a clear indication of intention on the ballot paper it will be accepted. You could probably draw a smiley or frowney face in either box and it would be accepted.

I was surprised at the amount of people uncertain about the papers. There was a lot of people who weren't sure which ballot was which despite it being written on them. But it wasn't uncommon on the day, a lot of people asked for clarification.

P_1 · 05-10-2013 08:17PM

Rascasse wrote: »

That is OK.

RTE say they even accepted 2 ballots in Dun Laoghaire where no had been ticked and "reform" written on the ballot - to me they should be counted as spoiled.

I wonder if my drawing of a middle fingered salute in the 'no' box was counted as a 'no' or a 'spoil' in that case

echo beach · 05-10-2013 11:28PM

Dinner wrote: »

I was surprised at the amount of people uncertain about the papers. There was a lot of people who weren't sure which ballot was which despite it being written on them. But it wasn't uncommon on the day, a lot of people asked for clarification.

When I went to vote the poll clerk handed me the two papers and said 'the white one is for the Seanad' and I heard her say the say to everybody else. Maybe by that stage she was tired of being asked or polling was so slow she was doing anything to engage in conversation.

Dinner · 05-10-2013 11:53PM

echo beach wrote: »

When I went to vote the poll clerk handed me the two papers and said 'the white one is for the Seanad' and I heard her say the say to everybody else. Maybe by that stage she was tired of being asked or polling was so slow she was doing anything to engage in conversation.

Both are likely to be honest, it was awful slow until about half 5. So a bit of conversation goes a long way!

Tin Foil Hat · 06-10-2013 12:24AM

Rascasse wrote: »

That is OK.

RTE say they even accepted 2 ballots in Dun Laoghaire where no had been ticked and "reform" written on the ballot - to me they should be counted as spoiled.

No. When a clear preference has been indicated then those votes are counted. That is how it is and that is how it should be. Those ballot papers unambiguously indicate that the the voters who cast them do not wish for the seanad to be abolished and it is perfectly correct that they should be counted as No votes.

As a humourous aside I would like to share the best ballot paper I have ever seen. I have no idea whether it was considered valid, or not, but I desperately hope that it was. All hail President Bruce Wayne.

StewartGriffin · 06-10-2013 12:44AM

Fluorescence wrote: »

If someone is such an imbecile that they can't decipher a straightforward ballot paper then they have no business voting.

I can't understand the confusion at all. It was very simple.

Sometimes I exercise my right not to vote and there are always people who say "people died to get us a vote, you must use it". But I think it's irresponsible to go out and vote on something you don't understand (and can't be bothered to research) just because you feel it's a moral obligation to register an opinion on something you know nothing about.

petronius · 09-10-2013 06:44AM

I hate when usually the government seem to infer that the people were confused that is why they didn't vote the way they should have.
To say people who voted yes understood the issue and voted no because they didn't.
It shows a lack of respect for the people, i do think the people respect the constitution and there has to be a legitimate and evident reason to change it. If people are not engaged with the debate or issue, they have the right not to vote, they are not lazy yes voters.

The issues should not be reduced to a simple slogan - a amendment should be teased out to explain its consequences, most people take the whole debate and arguments as to what they think will be the result of their vote and then vote accordingly.

I disagree with titles being put on the ballot paper which could be leading - something like last years "stability treaty" that is a biased title like "reduced irish governmental powers treaty" would be or the "save 20million bill" or "less politicians bill" would be

People can be confused and vote yes as much as they can vote no

SpaceTime · 09-10-2013 11:06AM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Question, considering there are over 14,000 spoiled votes, that seems quite a lot. My brother just realised he put a tick in the box instead of the X. Is his vote spoiled?

No, it's relatively hard to spoil a vote in Ireland.
They'll look for anything that will indicate clear choice.

So, for example if you ticked it, put a 1 in it or whatever it would work fine. They prefer an X as it's clearer and what you're supposed to do, but they won't disenfranchise you because you aren't good at filling in forms or made a mistake like using the wrong symbol.

Spoiled would be where you've made it impossible to read which option you wanted e.g. ticked both boxes or just scrawled a message on it.
There was even a case where a voter attached a note and that wasn't spoiled as the ballot paper was only stapled onto it.
They usually will go out of their way though to not have your vote spoiled. It's not like the states where they tend to look for any excuse to declare it spoiled.

14,000 spoiled votes in the Irish system would mean something went very seriously wrong.

...

I do still think the ballot paper was really badly laid out and needs total review.

Ballot papers should be designed to ensure that people with visual difficulty (a lot of elderly people), cognitive difficulties like dyslexia etc are fully catered for.

I don't think it's good enough to just present a bilingual, legalistic, confusing document like that.

A good graphic designer and someone who's aware of UI design for accessibility would be able to design a far better form and still stick to black and white printing if that's what's needed.

The General Election and other normal election ballot papers are far better designed.

People confused by English language

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