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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #2282
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    gaynorvader wrote: »
    The point stands, when offered an unencumbered, free choice, no woman chooses to wear a burka.
    This is simply not true. I think they fall into two categories, those that hate the burka and wish it didn't exist but are pressured into wearing it by family/society, and then those that are deeply religious who really want to live by their religions traditions and customs. While the latter may be the result of indoctrination it doesn't change the fact that they choose to do it. There are many cases of middle aged women who converted to Islam and have choosen to wear the burka.

    If a woman convinced you that she chooses all on her own to wear the burka, do you think she should be banned from doing so?

    Likewise, I'm sure their are many Muslim men who would rather not have their wives wear a burka but feel social pressure to do so much like atheist parents and their kids first communion... most go along with it.

    The sad thing is, this law mostly hurts the women who are under most pressure to wear it.


  • #2283
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    inocybe wrote: »
    Not me, I think that's a perfectly good reason. No different to banning motorbike helmets in shops and hoodies in shopping centres. People should be able to be identified by facial features.

    This ban has nothing to do with shops or businesses. It's about people walking down the street minding their own business. I have no automatic right to know your identity if I pass you on the street nor you mine.


  • #2284
    Two Tone from Limehouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Two Tone from Limehouse


    I'm religious and do not support the ban
    Is there any chance that it will be banned in Ireland or the UK? I sincerely hope so...


  • #2285
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    The sad thing is, this law mostly hurts the women who are under most pressure to wear it.
    Could you provide some evidence to back up this claim?


  • #2286
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »
    Is there any chance that it will be banned in Ireland or the UK? I sincerely hope so...
    It's certainly unlikely in either country. The UK on account of the close ties to religion via Liz and the CofE, and the concomitant "respect" for religion that many politicians conjure up. And in Ireland, because the politicians are similarly disinclined to retire any of the many privileges acquired by the religious.

    Can't help but notice in passing that the UK's has (a) unlike the French, failed to stop religious fanatics from preaching and doing pretty what they want with and amongst their flocks with little or no state interference and (b) again, unlike the French, has produced quite a few home-grown religiously-inspired terrorists. No idea whether the two are connected causally, but it seems at least plausible that they might be.


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  • #2287
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »
    Is there any chance that it will be banned in Ireland or the UK? I sincerely hope so...
    I sincerely hope so - but I don't see the balls among any of our politicians right now. They will most likely wait and see what happens in the UK etc. We can only hope that some of them will stand up for what we in Ireland stand for and ban this ghastly thing.


  • #2288
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »
    Is there any chance that it will be banned in Ireland or the UK? I sincerely hope so...
    Why?


  • #2289
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Scotty # wrote: »
    The sad thing is, this law mostly hurts the women who are under most pressure to wear it.
    Could you provide some evidence to back up this claim?
    Sorry, should have said, "The sad thing is, in my opinion, this law mostly hurts the women who are under most pressure to wear it.

    I would have thought it goes without saying though. If one woman chooses to wear it and her husband/father isn't too bothered it's probably not that much of a hinderance if it's outlawed. If on the other hand the woman is wearing out of the threat of physical violence then it's much harder for her. No?


  • #2290
    Two Tone from Limehouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Two Tone from Limehouse


    I'm religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Why?

    Eh, have you read any of the previous 190 pages?


  • #2291
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »
    Eh, have you read any of the previous 190 pages?
    Yes I have and several reasons have been given. I was just curious what yours is? You don't have to tell me if you don't want. Just curious.


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  • #2292
    inocybe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    This ban has nothing to do with shops or businesses. It's about people walking down the street minding their own business. I have no automatic right to know your identity if I pass you on the street nor you mine.

    Well now you do if you live in Belgium :)


  • #2293
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    The sad truth is that rape is endemic to very many societies, particularly poorer societies and despotic ones. The burqa in this instance is just a visual manifestation of a much larger problem that occurs across many male dominated societies, as can be seen more recently in India.

    But as Cabaal pointed out previously, many of the countries with the poorest record in relation to rape and violence in general against women also have the burka. Thats because the idea of the burka didn't originate with the victims of these crimes, as a way to avoid them, it originated with the perpetrators of these crimes, as a way of shifting blame onto the victim.
    smacl wrote: »
    Yes, actually, though not particularly relevant to this discussion. On a walking holiday some years back in Morocco, the local berber women covered their faces and all exposed flesh. It makes a lot of sense in the desert. The men did it too. So did I. The origin of a lot this gear is quite functional, its use in a modern northern European context is not.

    That is argument to cover up under the sun, and the argument disappears when there isn't sufficient sun to warrant completely covering up. The burka is not the only way to avoid such sun, and its hardly going to be any use in many western or northern European states which don't see the same intensity of sunlight as a middle eastern desert.


  • #2294
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    While the latter may be the result of indoctrination it doesn't change the fact that they choose to do it.

    Look, I know you don't agree with us, but for this discussion to go anywhere you must recognise that in our eyes, indoctrination (to the level of thinking you must wear a burka) does remove the choice involved.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Likewise, I'm sure their are many Muslim men who would rather not have their wives wear a burka but feel social pressure to do so

    Wouldn't these laws help these men?


  • #2295
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    This is simply not true. I think they fall into two categories, those that hate the burka and wish it didn't exist but are pressured into wearing it by family/society, and then those that are deeply religious who really want to live by their religions traditions and customs. While the latter may be the result of indoctrination it doesn't change the fact that they choose to do it. There are many cases of middle aged women who converted to Islam and have choosen to wear the burka.

    If a woman convinced you that she chooses all on her own to wear the burka, do you think she should be banned from doing so?

    Likewise, I'm sure their are many Muslim men who would rather not have their wives wear a burka but feel social pressure to do so much like atheist parents and their kids first communion... most go along with it.

    The sad thing is, this law mostly hurts the women who are under most pressure to wear it.

    You must have misread or misunderstood what I wrote, I'll emphasise it for you:

    The point stands, when offered an unencumbered, free choice, no woman chooses to wear a burka.

    I think I even went out of my way to point out that they were making a choice, just not a free one.


  • #2296
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    If on the other hand the woman is wearing out of the threat of physical violence then it's much harder for her. No?
    I don't quite see why it should be harder for her.

    The French law says, so far as I recall, that women can't wear a burka in or on French state property. So, if a woman's coerced into wearing it, then she'll either:
    • be confined by the same man to stay at home all the time in which case -- I'm assuming, as seems likely, an enforced "traditional" role for the woman here -- the man has to go out and do all the shopping, delivering and collecting the kids from school. While the woman sits at home, presumably fairly idle. I can't see that situation lasting for very long, though I concede it may happen to a small number of women for some period of time. (BTW, I recall one of my Saudi friends ranting on over dinner interminably one evening about having to deliver his kids hither and yon at random times throughout the day and to the detriment of his job, as his wife isn't allowed to drive and he couldn't afford to pay an unemployed male relative to cart her around; so the frustration of having half of a parenting relationship mostly idle for religious reasons is understood).
    • Or the coercive man will fold immediately and just let her go do her thing, without wearing the burka (which gives her back her freedom to dress without coercion).
    • Or she'll be sent out to do "her" household tasks and will be caught and fined, causing financial grief to the coercive man who, in all likelihood, will soon decide he's onto a loser and allow her dress as she wants (again, giving her back her freedom to dress without coercion).
    So, basically, the state is threatening greater coercion against the man, than the man is threatening the woman with. The woman of course, can plausibly deny wanting to junk her burka, and point instead to the state making her do it, so she's off the hook as much as possible.

    Of course, threatening a greater force against a lesser one is a lousy way to solve a social problem, but at least it's easy to legislate for and enforce, and if people take the rational and obvious course of action, as I believe just about everybody has, then nobody gets hurt and the coercion stops. The law also, as far as I recall, also includes provision for men stopping women from leaving the house, so it does attempt to deal with the possible downside-effects too. Finally, I haven't heard any plausible stories of women being detained at home against their will, though again, I'd certainly like to hear them if they do exist.


  • #2297
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Hitler was democratically elected and he systematically destroyed those he thought to be lesser beings than him.

    The burqa is an oppressive tool used against all women and men. The groups that aline themselves with the wearing of the burqa would if they had their way, have women be what these fanatics see (OR WANT TO SEE) them to be, the lesser gender. Its like tolerating bullying, I see the burqa once accepted as instrument that slowly erodes womens rights

    There are inalienable human rights that every person should have and equality within a society is paramount. A persons right to wear a tool that disempowers them is one thing, if this tool may disempower everyone the right should be extremely limited.

    People can wear burqa just as they can strip naked in their own homes but they cannot impinge on public policy or the good of the majority in society.


  • #2298
    Two Tone from Limehouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Two Tone from Limehouse


    I'm religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Yes I have and several reasons have been given. I was just curious what yours is? You don't have to tell me if you don't want. Just curious.

    I find it offensive.


  • #2299
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Two Tone from Limehouse wrote: »
    I find it offensive.

    I think this is actually the prime motivator for many people voting for the bans. The French have been far more honest than the Belgians in this regard, and are firmer on their stance as a secular culture. I think that the principal effect of the ban is to remove the offence from the public eye, but would be skeptical as to whether it helps the women in question beyond this. If they still go out without the burqa or naqib, it probably would improve their position somewhat, as being in a public place where most of the people around you find your presence offensive must be terrifying. I was in Aldi yesterday where there was a women shopping wearing a naqib who got quite a few wary stares and glances. I wonder how many other women in the same situation avoid going out when ever possible.

    Outside of the above effect, the burqa bans seems to many to symbolise a struggle to preserve national cultures in the face of increasing immigration from muslim states. While it is view I sympathise with, for ex imperial countries such as France and England, much of the fault lies with their own historical endeavours. Not so with Ireland, and I don't see it becoming a major issue here any time soon.


  • #2300
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    I think that the principal effect of the ban is to remove the offence from the public eye, but would be skeptical as to whether it helps the women in question beyond this.
    I addressed this just above. As it seems to be a common opinion amongst people who don't support the ban, could you explain a bit more about exactly why it doesn't help them and what evidence there is to suggest that these concerns are real?


  • #2301
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    I addressed this just above. As it seems to be a common opinion amongst people who don't support the ban, could you explain a bit more about exactly why it doesn't help them and what evidence there is to suggest that these concerns are real?

    From an article in the Guardian
    France's burqa ban: women are 'effectively under house arrest'
    Since France introduced its burqa ban in April there have been violent attacks on women wearing the niqab and, this week, the first fines could be handed down. But a legal challenge to this hard line may yet expose the French state as a laughing stock

    This is also incidentally the position of amnesty international on the matter. I very much doubt that if amnesty felt that burqa bans were in the best interests of burqa wearing women, they would call for such bans to be rejected.

    There's also opinion to support your line of reasoning, as per Fadela Amara's defence of the French ban, but from what I've read, the balance of opinion goes the other way.

    One thing for certain is that it is not a simple black and white issue, and there is quite a bit more to it than genuine concern for the women involved. I view it more as a cultural clash and am entirely sympathetic to the opinion that if when you move to a new country you should be prepared to adopt the local cultural mores. If like Two Tone from Limehouse, most people find the burqa offensive, and want it banned, I wouldn't find it unreasonable. What I object to is the pretense that most people looking for a burqa ban do so because they are concerned about the best interests of the wearer, or that burqa wearing women pose a threat to security.


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  • #2302
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    But as Cabaal pointed out previously, many of the countries with the poorest record in relation to rape and violence in general against women also have the burka. Thats because the idea of the burka didn't originate with the victims of these crimes, as a way to avoid them, it originated with the perpetrators of these crimes, as a way of shifting blame onto the victim.

    Cabaal's post relates to demographics for discrimination against women, there were no references to violence, rape, or burkas. You really need a bit more supporting evidence for a statement like that. Even then, countries like like France and Russia seem to hold pretty tenuous positions.
    Thats because the idea of the burka didn't originate with the victims of these crimes, as a way to avoid them, it originated with the perpetrators of these crimes, as a way of shifting blame onto the victim.

    References please?
    That is argument to cover up under the sun, and the argument disappears when there isn't sufficient sun to warrant completely covering up. The burka is not the only way to avoid such sun, and its hardly going to be any use in many western or northern European states which don't see the same intensity of sunlight as a middle eastern desert.
    smacl wrote: »
    Yes, actually, though not particularly relevant to this discussion. On a walking holiday some years back in Morocco, the local berber women covered their faces and all exposed flesh. It makes a lot of sense in the desert. The men did it too. So did I. The origin of a lot this gear is quite functional, its use in a modern northern European context is not.

    Already said :rolleyes:


  • #2303
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    I'm religious and support the ban
    I'd find it difficult to support an outright ban, mainly because I believe people should be able to wear whatever the hell they want. At the same time, I'd definitely be in favour of strict punishments for people or groups who excessively pressure women into wearing one.


  • #2304
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    What I object to is the pretense that most people looking for a burqa ban do so because they are concerned about the best interests of the wearer, or that burqa wearing women pose a threat to security.
    I would imagine that, like me, those people would find your accusation wholly offensive in and of itself.


  • #2305
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    Cabaal's post relates to demographics for discrimination against women, there were no references to violence, rape, or burkas. You really need a bit more supporting evidence for a statement like that. Even then, countries like like France and Russia seem to hold pretty tenuous positions.

    Sorry misread Cabaals source there.
    Data on places like Afghanistan, or middle eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan, which all have compulsory veiling, all show that women in these countries are subject to violence and the burka doesn't stop this at all (especially when the violence is for not wearing the burka properly).
    smacl wrote: »
    References please?

    The quran, and the fact that the peddlers of the quran are men. The fatwas that say the burka is compulsory don't come from female religious leaders.
    smacl wrote: »
    Already said :rolleyes:

    Then why say it at all?
    Besides:
    That is argument to cover up under the sun, and the argument disappears when there isn't sufficient sun to warrant completely covering up. The burka is not the only way to avoid such sun...


  • #2306
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Piliger wrote: »
    I would imagine that, like me, those people would find your accusation wholly offensive in and of itself.

    And I imagine that people like this woman from the previously linked article might think differently.
    Ahmas, 32, French, a divorced single mother of a three-year-old daughter, puts her handbag on the table and takes out a pepper spray and attack alarm. She doesn't live on the high-rise estates but on a quiet street of semi-detached houses. The last time she was attacked in the street a man and woman punched her in front of her daughter, called her a whore and told her to go back to Afghanistan. "My quality of life has seriously deteriorated since the ban. In my head, I have to prepare for war every time I step outside, prepare to come up against people who want to put a bullet in my head. The politicians claimed they were liberating us; what they've done is to exclude us from the social sphere. Before this law, I never asked myself whether I'd be able to make it to a cafe or collect documents from a town hall. One politician in favour of the ban said niqabs were 'walking prisons'. Well, that's exactly where we've been stuck by this law."

    While it might surprise you, the number of attacks on muslim women in France has risen since the burqa ban, as has broader islamophobia. For those of my generation, it doesn't seem far removed to the situation that led to the ethnic riots in Brixton and Toxdeth in the early 80s.

    The notion that the ban in France came about solely or even primarily because the larger French population were concerned about the welfare of muslim women is a fallacy, plain and simple. If it looks like bullshít, smells like bullshít, I'd advise against swallowing it.


  • #2307
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    And I imagine that people like this woman from the previously linked article might think differently.



    While it might surprise you, the number of attacks on muslim women in France has risen since the burqa ban, as has broader islamophobia. For those of my generation, it doesn't seem far removed to the situation that led to the ethnic riots in Brixton and Toxdeth in the early 80s.

    The notion that the ban in France came about solely or even primarily because the larger French population were concerned about the welfare of muslim women is a fallacy, plain and simple. If it looks like bullshít, smells like bullshít, I'd advise against swallowing it.

    I don't think it's about the welfare of Muslim women. It's about French secularity, which is strictly enforced in public spaces, including schools, to the extent they will tell kids there is no such thing as fairies and Santa. While the US is all about freedom of religion, the French are all about freedom FROM religion.

    My opposition to the burkha is practical and for security, it has nothing to do with the welfare of Muslim women, or ideology blah blah blah. Show your face. That's it.

    We have dress codes too. We can't go out naked for example. There is some respect for the public space that has to be shown. So technically the state "coerces us" into wearing clothes outside,but so what?


  • #2308
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    clairefontaine wrote: »
    I don't think it's about the welfare of Muslim women. It's about French secularity, which is strictly enforced in public spaces, including schools, to the extent they will tell kids there is no such thing as fairies and Santa. While the US is all about freedom of religion, the French are all about freedom FROM religion.

    My opposition to the burkha is practical and for security, it has nothing to do with the welfare of Muslim women, or ideology blah blah blah. Show your face. That's it.

    We have dress codes too. We can't go out naked for example. There is some respect for the public space that has to be shown. So technically the state "coerces us" into wearing clothes outside,but so what?

    So, what you're saying is, if we were in a truly free society everyone would be walking around naked with only face coverings on! ;)


  • #2309
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    clairefontaine wrote: »
    My opposition to the burkha is practical and for security, it has nothing to do with the welfare of Muslim women, or ideology blah blah blah. Show your face. That's it.

    Fair enough. So what is it about another woman wearing a burqa that is impractical for you, and how does she threaten your security? Do you reckon she'd going to strap a load of semtex under her skirts and go all suicide bomber on you? Because if she did, she could do it just as well without the veil. Do you think she's going to shoplift from M&S, and get away with it because no-one knows her true identity? The only woman in the shop wearing a burqa that is. You know, the one that looks like she's being cast for the bar scene from Star Wars.

    And how does this piece of typical Dublin winter dress sense affect your sensibilities?

    273546.JPG

    At face value, the practical security threat when compared with a burqa is pretty similar. I think women in burqas simply make people feel uncomfortable, and it is easy to rationalise why, rather than dealing with the fact that they just give you the heebee geebees for no good reason. Further, as Mark Hamill has pointed out, a number of Islamic states have appalling human rights records not to mention an association with terrorism, so many people would much rather not have them as neighbours.


  • #2310
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    And how does this piece of typical Dublin winter dress sense affect your sensibilities?
    Your 'argument' is just patronising silly juvenile nonsense. I don't believe for one moment that this is an honest argument at all. Not one bit. No one could be that challenged.


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  • #2311
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    Fair enough. So what is it about another woman wearing a burqa that is impractical for you, and how does she threaten your security? Do you reckon she'd going to strap a load of semtex under her skirts and go all suicide bomber on you? Because if she did, she could do it just as well without the veil. Do you think she's going to shoplift from M&S, and get away with it because no-one knows her true identity? The only woman in the shop wearing a burqa that is. You know, the one that looks like she's being cast for the bar scene from Star Wars.

    And how does this piece of typical Dublin winter dress sense affect your sensibilities?

    273546.JPG

    At face value, the practical security threat when compared with a burqa is pretty similar. I think women in burqas simply make people feel uncomfortable, and it is easy to rationalise why, rather than dealing with the fact that they just give you the heebee geebees for no good reason. Further, as Mark Hamill has pointed out, a number of Islamic states have appalling human rights records not to mention an association with terrorism, so many people would much rather not have them as neighbours.
    Would she get through security like that? For get security, she would not even get served in a petrol station dressed like that. If we started having a conversation would she pull her scarf down?

    MrP


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