Burka ban

gaynorvader · 24-09-2013 05:20PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

..but yet you have no counter argument. I see.

The poster states they have the right to view others faces. I say they don't. You say I've surrendered. Nonsense indeed. :rolleyes:

Both face masks worn by nurses and sunglasses have functional purposes. Neither are purely for fashion. They are not good comparisons for the burka. You also tend not to see nurses wearing face masks outside of the operating theatre or wards.

robindch · 24-09-2013 05:21PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

I want to leave people free to dress as they choose.

So do I. You are aware that islam, via social coercion of many kinds, forces women to dress like this?

tdv123 · 24-09-2013 05:31PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

robindch wrote: »

So do I. You are aware that islam, via social coercion of many kinds, forces women to dress like this?

So the answer is to replace one oppressive system with another?

robindch · 24-09-2013 06:11PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

tdv123 wrote: »

So the answer is to replace one oppressive system with another?

Which is more "oppressive" - making everybody wear the same thing and threatening violence or other damaging social consequences if they don't, or prohibiting a single, unnecessary item of clothing?

tdv123 · 24-09-2013 06:48PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

robindch wrote: »

Which is more "oppressive" - making everybody wear the same thing and threatening violence or other damaging social consequences if they don't, or prohibiting a single, unnecessary item of clothing?

Well that's just silly right wing propaganda, the type I'd expect to hear on Fox News or something. I can assure you no woman living in Ireland is being threatened with violence to wear a burka.
The whole argument against the thing is flawed. For arguments sake if someone was being abused & threatened to wear it how is banning it going to stop the abuse? The people who abuse women are just going to suddenly start being nice & warmhearted because the government say so?

People who abuse women aren't mentally sound & removing a piece of cloth of somebodies face won't improve the situation it will just mean were moving a step closer towards fascism.

Piliger · 24-09-2013 06:52PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

tdv123 wrote: »

Well that's just silly right wing propaganda, the type I'd expect to hear on Fox News or something. I can assure you no woman living in Ireland is being threatened with violence to wear a burka.
The whole argument against the thing is flawed. For arguments sake if someone was being abused & threatened to wear it how is banning it going to stop the abuse? The people who abuse women are just going to suddenly start being nice & warmhearted because the government say so?

People who abuse women aren't mentally sound & removing a piece of cloth of somebodies face won't improve the situation it will just mean were moving a step closer towards fascism.

Argument is clearly beyond this kind of world view - a world view that I find thoroughly disgusting and amoral.

MrPudding · 24-09-2013 06:56PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Banbh wrote: »

So what you're saying Mr P is that all Imams are rapists.
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself).

Well, not all of them...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=imam+rape

It seems that like many people in positions of power they have a bit of a control problem. Perhaps that is why they have such a low opinion of their own followers...

MrP

tdv123 · 24-09-2013 07:14PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Piliger wrote: »

Argument is clearly beyond this kind of world view - a world view that I find thoroughly disgusting and amoral.

Lol, I can't tell if this is pisstake or not. Do yourself a favor pal & get of your high horse the oxygen level is dangerously low were your head is.

Pherekydes · 24-09-2013 08:00PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

tdv123 wrote: »

Lol, I can't tell if this is pisstake or not. Do yourself a favor pal & get of your high horse the oxygen level is dangerously low were your head is.

The force irony is strong in this one!

Scotty # · 24-09-2013 08:04PM

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

So do I. You are aware that islam, via social coercion of many kinds, forces women to dress like this?

Yes I am. I don't condone that for a second.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The law you want to see introduced forces them to adhere to your sense of what's suitable. They are still being told how to live by those who think they know what's best for them. But I think we both agree that this law merely forces these women to be prisoners in their own home? It solves nothing and for that reason should not be introduced imo.

tdv123 · 24-09-2013 08:06PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Pherekydes wrote: »

The force irony is strong in this one!

The atheist fundamentalists are out in force tonight I see.

Piliger · 24-09-2013 08:16PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Yeah ... we're all fundamentalists now LOL

:D:D

MrPudding · 24-09-2013 08:24PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

Yes I am. I don't condone that for a second.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The law you want to see introduced forces them to adhere to your sense of what's suitable. They are still being told how to live by those who think they know what's best for them. But I think we both agree that this law merely forces these women to be prisoners in their own home? It solves nothing and for that reason should not be introduced imo.

Yeah, how dare those people decide that not being oppressed is good for them. Nazis. Again, I think what one would hope happens is not that these women are trapped in their homes but that it become apparent that they don't need to be. Is that my privileged western white man attitude that I know best? Yes. Yes it is. I am quite happy to say that in certain areas, and for certain things my view is better than someone elses. I am quite happy to say I genuinely believe I am morally, or ethically, superior to the taliban or to imams or men that believe women should be turned into faceless "things" that are seen and treated as second class citizens.

As a brief aside, did anyone else catch Sunday Morning Live? I thought it was interesting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03bqvzz

MrP

tdv123 · 24-09-2013 08:27PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Piliger wrote: »

Yeah ... we're all fundamentalists now LOL :D:D

No actually were not all fundamentalists. Just like I'd call a spade a spade if I seen any religious nutter trying to impose their views on a minority I'd do the same if I seen a atheist doing it as well. There both bigoted fascists to me.

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 09:46PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

tdv123 wrote: »

No actually were not all fundamentalists. Just like I'd call a spade a spade if I seen any religious nutter trying to impose their views on a minority I'd do the same if I seen a atheist doing it as well. There both bigoted fascists to me.

I'm pretty sure most in this forum would argue against those who support female genital mutilation, arranged marriages and honour killings. Are we "bigoted fascists" for trying to "impose our views" on those minorities too?

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 09:48PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

Yes I am. I don't condone that for a second.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The law you want to see introduced forces them to adhere to your sense of what's suitable. They are still being told how to live by those who think they know what's best for them.

Telling someone they cant wear one very specific thing =/= telling someone they can only ever wear that very specific thing.

Scotty # wrote: »

But I think we both agree that this law merely forces these women to be prisoners in their own home? It solves nothing and for that reason should not be introduced imo.

What is your alternative?

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 10:11PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That is not what either I nor Mr. P had said, lets try again:

Do you regularly argue on the side of bigotry or do you make exceptions when the bigotry is directed at Muslims?

It is quite clear what is said. Read it again more slowly if you must.

I feel privileged that, as a (non.Muslim) man, I am capable of not sexually assaulting or raping every woman I meet, irrespective of what she is wearing. What is it about some muslim men that they apparently can't?

MrP

If you still can't figure it out then answer the bolded question. Why can't some Muslim men stop themselves from "raping every woman they meet"? Why can a non-Muslim stop himself from raping?

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 10:14PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Yeah... sometimes I think some people forget the most important thing about debating on this forum. From that blog post, right at the start:

We are atheists. In our view, there is no god. God isn't telling you anything, your (male) religious leaders are. Your holy book isn't holy, its propaganda and indoctrination, written by (long dead) men. Everything you believe about your god comes from some man, thinking up more ways to control people. Quoting the book, referencing the men, doesn't strengthen your argument here.

When did this girl ask for your "view"? Why can't you respect her beliefs? What right do you have to insist on which items of clothing this girl that you have never met wears?

Turtwig · 24-09-2013 10:22PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Folks,

If ye cannot discuss this in a civil and calm manner then please take a break. This isn't a discussion, debate or argument it's just a turgid mess of provocations and accusations.

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 10:24PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Do you regularly argue on the side of bigotry or do you make exceptions when the bigotry is directed at Muslims?

It is quite clear what is said. Read it again more slowly if you must.

If you still can't figure it out then answer the bolded question. Why can't some Muslim men stop themselves from "raping every woman they meet"? Why can a non-Muslim stop himself from raping?

This has been explained repeatedly, by me, Mr P, and others on this thread, stop pretending like we haven't been saying the same thing each time and maybe we can actually move on. For the last time:

We don't know why Muslim men can't stop themselves from "raping every woman they meet", yet a non-Muslim can. You need to ask those who claim that muslim men can't stop themselves from raping, ie the Imams and muslims who support the burka.

Gbear · 24-09-2013 10:25PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm pretty sure most in this forum would argue against those who support female genital mutilation, arranged marriages and honour killings. Are we "bigoted fascists" for trying to "impose our views" on those minorities too?

None of those examples are relevant.

I support the banning of all cosmetic surgery on children - male and female FGM included - because they can't give informed consent.
I can't imagine you could make much of an argument against an adult getting it done of their own volition.

Children again cannot give informed consent about getting married.
However I don't think anyone here would have a problem with an adult acquiescing to an arranged marriage (at least from a legal standpoint).

Again, quite a few people are supporters of assisted death in some form or another. Without consent it's merely murder.

In all of these cases that someone might be coerced into doing them is no more a reason to ban the practices outright than it's a reason to ban anything that a person can be coerced into doing - and people can literally be coerced into doing anything under the sun.

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 10:29PM

koth wrote: »

So far no problems. The woman wants to dress modestly, then fire ahead.

Oh dear. So she feels unsafe and sexually threatened into wearing the hijab. This is not a good argument against the ban. This is not a woman choosing to wear it but a woman forced to wear it because she feels she will be approached(!!) and/or touched by men. A choice made out of fear is not a choice freely made. .

I know girls who occasionally wear rings on their wedding fingers when they go for a night out when they don't want to be bothered.

"This is not a woman choosing to do this but a woman forced to wear it because she feels she will be approached and/or touched by men. A choice made out of fear is not a choice freely made".

Maybe we should ban wedding rings then eh?

koth wrote: »

The visual equivalent of walking down the street singing, "I'm a Muslim" isn't a convincing argument either.

What makes you think it was an argument? She wasn't trying to justify her choice of clothing to anyone, she shouldn't have to anymore than you or I should.

koth wrote: »

I wouldn't consider the woman happy based on her feeling of being unsafe/afraid of men without the hijab.

I'm not in favor of a government telling people what they can or can't wear, but that blog post was a bad choice for arguing against the ban.

She never said anything about being "unsafe" or "afraid", you bridged that gap yourself. She was highlighting a personal benefit to her own self of being covered up. She feels like less of a sex object. What possible problem could you have with that? Nobody is asking you to wear one.

Banbh · 24-09-2013 10:31PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/muslim-imam-claims-women-who-dont-wear-hijabs-

Thanks for those links earlier MrP. I don't know if you saw this gem among them - Imam says women who don't wear veils or who leave their houses deserve to be raped.

Scary people.

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 10:33PM

Banbh wrote: »

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/muslim-imam-claims-women-who-dont-wear-hijabs-

Thanks for those links earlier MrP. I don't know if you saw this gem among them - Imam says women who don't wear veils or who leave their houses deserve to be raped.

Scary people.

Frontpagemag :pac::pac::pac:

David Horowitz, the voice of impartiality and honesty.

+++++++

By the way Banbh, what is an "Imam"?

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 10:34PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

When did this girl ask for your "view"? Why can't you respect her beliefs? What right do you have to insist on which items of clothing this girl that you have never met wears?

This girl posted her view on a publicly viewable blog, thus opening it for public criticism. You were the one who brought it into this thread, did you honestly expect that no one would be allowed to respond to it?
I don't respect her beliefs because they are stupid and sexist to both men and women.
I am not insisting that she wear any specific item of clothing, I am insisting that she doesn't wear one specific item of clothing.

You need to drop the emotive slant in every response you make, Brown Bomber, it just undermines anything you try to say. What was to stop me from simply responding to this post with:
"When did I ask for your "view"? Why can't you respect my beliefs? What right do you have to insist on which views this poster that you have never met has?"
besides my desire to have a functioning discussion?

Delirium · 24-09-2013 10:40PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I know girls who occasionally wear rings on their wedding fingers when they go for a night out when they don't want to be bothered.

"This is not a woman choosing to do this but a woman forced to wear it because she feels she will be approached and/or touched by men. A choice made out of fear is not a choice freely made".

Maybe we should ban wedding rings then eh?

why? I never said the burka should be banned

Just that the post you linked to isn't very convincing as a counter argument to the ban.

What makes you think it was an argument?

You posted it in response to those that are in favour of the ban as a counter-argument. Or was it posted for some other reason?

She wasn't trying to justify her choice of clothing to anyone, she shouldn't have to anymore than you or I should.

Never suggested otherwise.

She never said anything about being "unsafe" or "afraid", you bridged that gap yourself. She was highlighting a personal benefit to her own self of being covered up. She feels like less of a sex object.

She feels uncomfortable near men when not wearing it. She feels protected and safe wearing the burka. It's not unreasonable to presume she feels unprotected/unsafe without it. Not a huge leap based on what she posted.

What possible problem could you have with that? Nobody is asking you to wear one.

None. If you actually read what I posted, you would see that I stated I'm not in favour of the ban.

Banbh · 24-09-2013 10:40PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZgzQjIDTic
Don't tell me these two women are wearing their slave-clothes voluntarily.

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 10:43PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Gbear wrote: »

None of those examples are relevant.

I support the banning of all cosmetic surgery on children - male and female FGM included - because they can't give informed consent.
I can't imagine you could make much of an argument against an adult getting it done of their own volition.

Children again cannot give informed consent about getting married.
However I don't think anyone here would have a problem with an adult acquiescing to an arranged marriage (at least from a legal standpoint).

Again, quite a few people are supporters of assisted death in some form or another. Without consent it's merely murder.

In all of these cases that someone might be coerced into doing them is no more a reason to ban the practices outright than it's a reason to ban anything that a person can be coerced into doing - and people can literally be coerced into doing anything under the sun.

The bold parts show the problem. With adult consent, as you say, almost anything is fine. But any of these acts done without consent would be railed against by most people, and they would not be "bigoted fascists" for trying to "impose their views" and minorities who want to force things like FGM and arranged marriages on others, even if its their own children.

The burka is not something that the vast majority of wearers choose to wear as an adult. It is something indoctrinated into them from birth, under the threat of spiritual punishment (usually physical too). Indoctrination poisons the well of consent and pointing that out does not make me or anyone else a bigot.

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 11:04PM

koth wrote: »

why? I never said the burka should be banned Just that the post you linked to isn't very convincing as a counter argument to the ban.
.

I just make it clear that it wasn't shared by myself or blogged originally as part of any argument. It was to share the views of a veil wearer. Wearers of the hijab are the only people's views who truly matter in this debate.

What in your view is more productive: a "feminist" shamelessly posting a mocking video of women eating in a restaurant wearing hijab or the honest opinions of a veil wearer?

Piliger · 24-09-2013 11:07PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I just make it clear that it wasn't shared by myself or blogged originally as part of any argument. It was to share the views of a veil wearer. Wearers of the hijab are the only people's views who truly matter in this debate.

What in your view is more productive: a "feminist" shamelessly posting a mocking video of women eating in a restaurant wearing hijab or the honest opinions of a veil wearer?

If you are so naive to think that the vast majority of those wearers are doing so by their free will .....

Burka ban

Comments