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Land Improvements thread

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    #32
    st1979
    Registered Users Posts: 936 ✭✭✭st1979


    How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate


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    #33
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    st1979 wrote: »
    How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

    My contractor can open, pipe and stone 1000m per day with a 13 ton machine and a stoning cart on a marooka track dumper. 10 hour day. Some time is needed afterwards to clean away spoil and do any leveling - so the amount of hours for this would be site specific but half a day maximum.


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    #34
    td5man
    Registered Users Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭td5man


    st1979 wrote: »
    How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

    If theres no stones 150m+


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    #35
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

    I also was advised that the cheapest way to drain was to use 3-4'' limestone no drainage pipe cover with straw and soil and that it would last 20-30 years. It seems that the dust of the limestone will block a lot of the pores in the drainage pipe. You can use drainage pipe on the last 10 feet or waving pipe. Again the trick is to keep it down 6-8''.
    I was advised this is ok for short shores but you need the pipe for long shores. Shallow drains are to remove rain water before it can soak into the ground. Therefore it needs to get away quickly.


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    #36
    Marooned75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Marooned75


    I have made a few channels in places to drain areas contractor says stone is enough no need for piping will do the job


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    #37
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Figerty wrote: »
    Run a mile from Limestone if you are in ground with Iron water. Limestone will react leaving you with a jelly blocking the pipes and wasting your money. Sandstone gravel doesn't react.
    Oh oh, I could be up s**t creek without a paddle. I put in solid sided JFC pipe which doesn't have the corrugated interior of the rolls of drainage pipe. Hopefully the smooth sides will help flow throw the pipe and prevent deposits building up. Filled the shores to the top with 2" washed limestone with 4" of stone under the pipe.
    I fill with stones to the top; 20mm pea gravel even though more expensive. I won't ever be ploughing this ground so the drains stay intact. I used 30mm stone 10 years ago and that is blocked now. the drain with 20mm are working fine.
    Where did you get the pea gravel and how much was it? My 2" washed limestone was €20/t.

    I


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    #38
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    4odh4n wrote: »
    after that you would be jetting every other year nearly to keep them running.
    How much did the jetting cost you? Depending on cost, I may consider it on a biannual basis right from year two.


    Anyone know a clare contractor that does this?


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    #39
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Got a bale of 100 6m JFC perforated corripipe for €1,100. By ch***t it better last the test of time.


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    #40
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Marooned75 wrote: »
    I have made a few channels in places to drain areas contractor says stone is enough no need for piping will do the job

    How long are they? I was advised after 30m you need pipe, particularly if there is a poor slope


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    #41
    td5man
    Registered Users Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭td5man


    just do it wrote: »
    Got a bale of 100 6m JFC perforated corripipe for €1,100. By ch***t it better last the test of time.

    100mm or 150 ?


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    #42
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    Nothing much to add here (yet) only to agree with posters that have said fill shores to the top.then rub of a handrake. a sprinkle of topsoil over is all that required to grow grass. 1" MAX!! Grass roots form a mat then nothing blocks shore


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    #43
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    V good dairy farmer has bog gardens leased off another retired farmer. Watching with interest to see how he gets on with drainage. If anyone will make it grow grass, it's him


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    #44
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    td5man wrote: »
    100mm or 150 ?
    100


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    #45
    Marooned75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Marooned75


    just do it wrote: »
    How long are they? I was advised after 30m you need pipe, particularly if there is a poor slope

    In or around 30 to 40 m have enough of fall on longer trench


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    #46
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭Figerty


    just do it wrote: »
    Oh oh, I could be up s**t creek without a paddle. I put in solid sided JFC pipe which doesn't have the corrugated interior of the rolls of drainage pipe. Hopefully the smooth sides will help flow throw the pipe and prevent deposits building up. Filled the shores to the top with 2" washed limestone with 4" of stone under the pipe.

    Where did you get the pea gravel and how much was it? My 2" washed limestone was €20/t.

    I

    Smooth pipe will help. You might not have a problem with the iron water. One book I read on line said it only really happens where the water exits to the main drain and hits the air. I know loads of lads that use limestone and they seem happy enough. Time will tell.

    I got the pea gravel from Broadford in Clare or Near Newport in Tipp. I'm west of Ennis. Depends up the quarry being open. I am paying €350 before vat. for a 17-18 tonne load but it's a long haul if I could get the bill from the lorry driver!


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    #47
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    If you look at my post I said that it was not reccomended to use any drainage pipe except at the end to let water exit to the shore. It is not a bell and whistle rather a low cost solution that will maybe last 20-30 years. The trick it seems is to seal the top so that loose earth or gravel cannot filter down through the stone. Cost is a huge issue with drainage if you can use a medium term solution that will be low cost it may allow someone to drain a large area and increase productivity very fast. There are area's of rushy sloped land that this might be suitable for that could double or treble farm production at a low cost cutting cost back by 50% or more.

    You see if draining lowlying land where you have a good percentage of productive land drainage costs is not a real issue however on a lot of west of Ireland most of the farm may require drainage. So low cost solutions may offer a medium term solution.

    A bells and whistle type solution may not be viable even though it has twice or three times the lifespan while a solution like was suggested to me may actually make long term sence on some of these farms. Now I must state I have not seen it done but was told about it by another farmer.

    If you look at it even spraying rushes at 10-15 euro/acre/year may make economic sence however how many do it. Right fertility will also help with P&K being very important. Using Granlime as opposed to ground lime due to access problems on heavy land may also increase productivity. It is doing something that there is an short to medium economic return that generates profit and wealth.

    I'd agree with you on nearly everything you say. I use drainage pipe as I tend to do long runs of draining; I heard it said that if the drain is over 30m then use a pipe. That makes sense. Over this length, the pipe is a must to handle the volume of water. On sloping land where they are diagonal this is need to prevent the water flooding the drain over running the land.

    It was put to me that drains don't dry land, the sun is the most important factor; drains get the surface water off the land as quickly as possible.

    The key thing for me is that I don't want to be back doing the bloody thing again. Much of my draining on lowland is being done to replace the damaged stone drains put down generations ago.

    The problem with limestone is also the sharp edges. These edges hold organic matter and nutrients; these encourage root growth and infiltration of pipes. The small pore size, with smooth sides should allow the pipes to stay open. Upland with a high Clay content would be fine with limestone.

    The point that was also made to me was that the pea gravel, while more expensive, will out live the other stone, especially on ground with a high level of organic matter like peaty ground or heavy black earth.


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    #48
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    Figerty wrote: »
    I'd agree with you on nearly everything you say. I use drainage pipe as I tend to do long runs of draining; I heard it said that if the drain is over 30m then use a pipe. That makes sense. Over this length, the pipe is a must to handle the volume of water. On sloping land where they are diagonal this is need to prevent the water flooding the drain over running the land.

    It was put to me that drains don't dry land, the sun is the most important factor; drains get the surface water off the land as quickly as possible.

    The key thing for me is that I don't want to be back doing the bloody thing again. Much of my draining on lowland is being done to replace the damaged stone drains put down generations ago.

    The problem with limestone is also the sharp edges. These edges hold organic matter and nutrients; these encourage root growth and infiltration of pipes. The small pore size, with smooth sides should allow the pipes to stay open. Upland with a high Clay content would be fine with limestone.

    The point that was also made to me was that the pea gravel, while more expensive, will out live the other stone, especially on ground with a high level of organic matter like peaty ground or heavy black earth.

    Again I agree with you longer term the pea gravel may be cheaper. However at 300 euro/load it is expensive along with pipe it may be prohibitive. Local limestone may come in at less than half that. So drainage costs may be 50% of the price of pea gravel. Again I have not seen it done but was advised that it was a cheap solution that works. You do not need washed limestone as water will wash it over time. The is the reason that you do not use drainage pipe slits will block. This is a cheap medium term solution. If it allows some to drain forty acres as opposed to 20 and generate a return that will allow you to drain 10 or more in a few years time then it is a viable solution. We should not look for solutions that are cost prohibitive even though they will last twice or three times longer.


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    #49
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Again I agree with you longer term the pea gravel may be cheaper. However at 300 euro/load it is expensive along with pipe it may be prohibitive. Local limestone may come in at less than half that. So drainage costs may be 50% of the price of pea gravel. Again I have not seen it done but was advised that it was a cheap solution that works. You do not need washed limestone as water will wash it over time. The is the reason that you do not use drainage pipe slits will block. This is a cheap medium term solution. If it allows some to drain forty acres as opposed to 20 and generate a return that will allow you to drain 10 or more in a few years time then it is a viable solution. We should not look for solutions that are cost prohibitive even though they will last twice or three times longer.

    No great disagreement there with you. Thing is for me, I am a part time farmer getting hit at the high rate of tax. I am looking at off setting the cost of this drainage against this off farm income. That reduces the difference between the cost of the materials for me. I do all the rest of the work myself; digging, transporting, laying drains etc. I like making profit on activities but I also don't like paying tax!


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    #50
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Just to add a new dimension to this. Have a look at the following link, We are in the middle of constructing a new GAA pitch. you can follow the development as it goes.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.548769261827427.1073741844.191980570839633&type=3


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    #51
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    bob charles wrote: »
    how about dig your drain, place terram into the drain so its folded in the bottom of the drain and comes up along the side. put in your chips and fold terram back over on top.

    Believe this is how OPW do all their drains. The Terram would be dear but much less chips could be used. See my earlier post.


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    #52
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    st1979 wrote: »
    How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

    See my post 18 above. With very little stress was doing 300 - 350 linear metres per day with that system. Drainage stone was €12 + VAT per tonne this year.


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    #53
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Figerty wrote: »
    I got the pea gravel from Broadford in Clare or Near Newport in Tipp. I'm west of Ennis. Depends up the quarry being open. I am paying €350 before vat. for a 17-18 tonne load but it's a long haul if I could get the bill from the lorry driver!
    McGrath's? I'd a look at my receipts from Ryan's. I paid €10/t before vat for 50mm including haulage. That's half the price of pea gravel and you'd use more as well. Not cheap! Some of my shores were quite deep in order to get a fall so I just couldn't afford pea gravel.


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    #54
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Muckit wrote: »
    V good dairy farmer has bog gardens leased off another retired farmer. Watching with interest to see how he gets on with drainage. If anyone will make it grow grass, it's him

    And report back. Bog is the tricky one to drain :rolleyes:


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    #55
    Conflats
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Conflats


    Does everyone open and pipe/chip the drains on the same day or have I being reading wrong as I always understood that a drain should be left open for a month or 2 until the land has dried a bit?


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    #56
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Figerty wrote: »
    The point that was also made to me was that the pea gravel, while more expensive, will out live the other stone, especially on ground with a high level of organic matter like peaty ground or heavy black earth.
    I agree with you on everything thus far except for what works in peat land. In such land the issue is the stone migrating into the soil away from the drain over time. I've bog land here and it never ceases to amaze me to see the large chunks of bogdale that work there way to the surface every few years. Hence the connaught agri pipe solution for such land.


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    #57
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    Conflats wrote: »
    Does everyone open and pipe/chip the drains on the same day or have I being reading wrong as I always understood that a drain should be left open for a month or 2 until the land has dried a bit?

    We would normally close the drain on the same day. This is because the type of land that we would be draining would only be drained in dry weather. Best to close it up when it is dry.

    However, I do have a couple of hundred meters of drains open from last week that I will be filling with the power box when or if it gets dry enough to get near them. They were opened last thursday (the wettest day of the summer so far) and the ground just hasn't dried up yet.


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    #58
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    just do it wrote: »
    I agree with you on everything thus far except for what works in peat land. In such land the issue is the stone migrating into the soil away from the drain over time. I've bog land here and it never ceases to amaze me to see the large chunks of bogdale that work there way to the surface every few years. Hence the connaught agri pipe solution for such land.

    +1

    If people are dreaming about putting stone shores into bog then they should just go to the bank, withdraw cash and light the fire with €50 notes. Stone just moves in bog. Works fine for 3 or 4 years and then suddenly stops because it has moved during a prolonged wet or dry year!


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    #59
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭Figerty


    reilig wrote: »
    +1

    If people are dreaming about putting stone shores into bog then they should just go to the bank, withdraw cash and light the fire with €50 notes. Stone just moves in bog. Works fine for 3 or 4 years and then suddenly stops because it has moved during a prolonged wet or dry year!

    I have never drained Bog; drained black earthy ground, but having suffered as a young lad in the bog and feeling the whole bank move when a tractor passed I don't doubt your point! Stone will move as will the organic matter that is peat. The filter is probably the best option.


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    #60
    bob charles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    I dont know if we are making progress or not doing my current field. Dozer back in this afternoon to shift more subsoil into a low spot to "make a proper job of it:rolleyes:"


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    #61
    nashmach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭nashmach


    bob charles wrote: »
    I dont know if we are making progress or not doing my current field. Dozer back in this afternoon to shift more subsoil into a low spot to "make a proper job of it:rolleyes:"

    Heaps of clay here there and everywhere!

    No one has mentioned on going maintenance of drains, you need to be rodding any outlets from pipes at least once a year.


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