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Why DO people have such busybody attitudes to sexuality? *mod warning opening post*

1246

Comments

  • #92
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Sarky wrote: »
    Oh I see, you only wanted to create an argument about semantics, for the sake of argument. Mission accomplished. Well done you! Maybe I should have replaces 'getting jiggy' with 'the sacred physical act of love between consenting adults', just in case someone thought I meant 'impersonating Will Smith' and wanted to bring me up on that in order to look really clever.

    :confused:

    I pointed out that its stupid to blame everything on the CC when in multiple different cultures this same lack of toleration occurs, when I did you said it was "the throwaway part of the post"
    Sarky wrote: »
    You suggest politically correct terms for sexual kinks, you tell me that enjoying a kink is because of your social conditioning, and then in the same sentence you say it's actually because of the rejection of same? And I'm the one with hang-ups? Have you considered that someone might enjoy a kink simply because they are free to do so? Or because those still clinging to their own shame and fear are really amusing when they get scandalised, as well as bitter that they're not having as much fun?

    Do you not see the contradiction in what you just posted.

    Have you considered that someone might enjoy a kink simply because they are free to do so
    vs this
    Or because those still clinging to their own shame and fear are really amusing when they get scandalised

    And do you actually get not get my point at all? Like was the example I gave that hard to understand?
    If some one is truly liberated of the pervading social norms/moral conditioning, they don't have to rebel against it because it doesn't matter to them,they might break these "rules" but that is different from deliberately acting against them. If rebelling/breaking those social rules gives them pleasure they are clearly still clearly effected by their own social conditioning.
    ps whats wrong with suggesting the more pc term, I thought we were trying to be tolerant here ?(and its correct for your argument, since you changed your mind about taboo stuff in your posts)
    Sarky wrote: »
    And all this because you wanted to roll your eyes at a mention of the Catholic Church in order to be hip and down with the kids. You know this makes you the guy who tried to steer the thread towards Catholic bashing. By all means, continue, I hear Catholic-basher-bashing threads are really popular right now. I'm sure those thanks will come flooding in for you.

    I hardly think pointing out church bashing is really going to get me a lot of thanks on this forum, unless AH has changed a lot in the last few hours, they're about as popular as Bankers pensions on here! Or are you just getting annoyed ;)

    ps see you edited your last post?


  • #93
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Quite a lot of the animal kingdom are monogomous sexually.
    Most fornicate for breeding purposes only.
    I've no problem what people do in the sack, as long as they don't ask me to pick up the tab for the sprogs when the daddy goes AWOL.
    I think the reason why we have to be prudish sexually is to protect to sanctity of the family and to keep some kind of order in society.
    A lot of the animal kingdom also isn't monogamous, and there's not really any valid reason why we should try to be ourselves either.

    We don't have sex primarily for breeding purposes, and 'sanctity of the family' is more grounded in religion than most anything else; there's past precedent out there of society that has functioned in a perfectly orderly way, without a traditional family structure, where society was sexually open and even the fatherhood of children was usually completely uncertain/unknown (with them being raised by the whole community).

    Our current way of doing things is largely just down to social enforcement/reinforcement, and has little to do with being the 'best' or most 'natural' way of doing things (not to say there's anything wrong with people doing things the traditional way - people just shouldn't face judgement for doing things differently).


  • #94
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Quite a lot of the animal kingdom are monogomous sexually.

    Different issue - many monogamous animals still don't give a crap if anyone's watching, they don't view it as something "secret" to be repulsed by if they see others doing it.
    I've no problem what people do in the sack, as long as they don't ask me to pick up the tab for the sprogs when the daddy goes AWOL.

    So what about sex acts which are physically incapable of producing offspring? Should these not be treated as "meh"?

    [/Quote]I think the reason why we have to be prudish sexually is to protect to sanctity of the family and to keep some kind of order in society.[/quote]

    Ok, so what about married people going at it in a public park? Why should that be a problem?
    As for social order, personally I don't believe in it but I realise I'm in the minority there so I don't expect to win any opinion debates about it, it's just how I feel about it. The only thing I believe should be a crime is something which hurts somebody without their consent, anything else is not the government's business in my view.


  • #95
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Love2u wrote: »
    Its Certainly not a sport I'd like my children to witness if I happened to be taking a walk in the woods with them :-@ I say no thanks.


    The comment was in relation to the past and pre-industrial societies.


  • #96
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Love2u wrote: »
    Its Certainly not a sport I'd like my children to witness if I happened to be taking a walk in the woods with them :-@ I say no thanks.

    Why not? No one has ever turned to stone from seeing a penis or an exposed boob, have they?


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  • #97
    Love2u
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Love2u


    Nodin wrote: »
    The comment was in relation to the past and pre-industrial societies.

    Oops!


  • #98
    Love2u
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Love2u


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Why not? No one has ever turned to stone from seeing a penis or an exposed boob, have they?


    No but they may turn to stone with the cold weather freezing the exposed bits :-@.


  • #99
    MOC88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭MOC88


    SamHall wrote: »
    Helloooooo.

    Can I get in on this?


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Has any society anywhere that we know of, have no taboos or ritual's around sex or has any society anywhere a tolerant or even indifferent attitude to sex in public.

    I am not talking about ritual public sex.


  • #101
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Has any society anywhere that we know of, have no taboos or ritual's around sex or has any society anywhere a tolerant or even indifferent attitude to sex in public.

    I am not talking about ritual public sex.

    Everyone except humans, it would seem. Question is why humans treat it as a massively big deal when other animals just go "meh who gives a sh!te, nothing to do with me"


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  • #102
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Everyone except humans, it would seem. Question is why humans treat it as a massively big deal when other animals just go "meh who gives a sh!te, nothing to do with me"


    Doctor Dolittle I presume? :D


  • #103
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Has anyone expressed this sentiment though?
    Sorry, thought Sarky was implying it. He was getting really really angry at RDM. Undeservedly so IMO.
    Sarky wrote: »
    Not that I can see. But all my male privilege might be getting in the way, it's insidious like that. I guess maybe not being into something makes it easy to assume that people who get annoyed at those actively against that thing are also talking about them. People get really weird about sex. I wish they didn't. Everyone would be happier.
    And that includes being bothered by people not being really sexually outrageous. Not sure how I implied anything about male privilege.
    Norwesterner wrote: »
    I've no problem what people do in the sack, as long as they don't ask me to pick up the tab for the sprogs when the daddy goes AWOL.
    I've no problem with helping out a parent whose partner has ****ed off and doesn't pay a cent towards the children they co-parented, if that person cannot work full-time and cannot afford childcare. Animosity should be towards the person who has ****ed off, not the person left with the children.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Ok, so what about married people going at it in a public park? Why should that be a problem?
    Some people just think certain stuff should be kept private and discreet. The same people who think that could still be into off-the-chart crazy sexual antics in private themselves. I don't know why people think it should be kept private - people also think going for a sh1t should be kept private, even though that's natural and not hurting anyone.
    Tbh, I suspect people who ask "Why don't people like others being blatant about engaging in sex acts in public?" know why, but want to look really libertine.


  • #104
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Ok, so what about married people going at it in a public park? Why should that be a problem?


    Seriously Patrick? Because I don't want to be subjected to some guys hairy little hole bobbing up and down while I'm trying to read my newspaper. It's distracting and it's rather off putting to say the least!

    As for social order, personally I don't believe in it but I realise I'm in the minority there so I don't expect to win any opinion debates about it, it's just how I feel about it. The only thing I believe should be a crime is something which hurts somebody without their consent, anything else is not the government's business in my view.


    Yeah, it hurts my eyeballs when I'm subjected to Anto and Jacinta's love-fest like they couldn't help themselves, time and a place and all that. You might not agree with it, but so the rest of us don't have to reach for the eye bleach- try and keep it in your trousers.


  • #105
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    ^ Maybe some do, I genuinely don't. I've never felt disgusted by it myself so the amount of revulsion when there's a scandal is something I genuinely fail to understand, particularly in the context of a daily onslaught of graphic violence in the media which nobody seems to care about. Couple of people having a bit of fun on camera = national disgrace, couple of people getting their legs blown off by terrorists = yawn, old news... It seems very peculiar. And I would indeed call myself a libertine in a lot of respects, my quest is to try and understand why such views aren't more widespread.

    I wonder if this is something society at large conditions in people and a lot never ask the question of what purpose it serves? I'm the kind of guy who questioned absolutely everything since he was a kid and if there wasn't a logical explanation for it I regarded it as pointless. Perhaps this is an unusual trait, I've simply never believed in rules "because that's just the way it is", if there's no rationale behind it then to me it makes little sense.

    EDIT: This was a reply to Femme Fatal, not czarcasm


  • #106
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Czarcasm wrote: »


    Yeah, it hurts my eyeballs when I'm subjected to Anto and Jacinta's love-fest like they couldn't help themselves, time and a place and all that. You might not agree with it, but so the rest of us don't have to reach for the eye bleach- try and keep it in your trousers.

    What if it was James and Christine from down the road, though? They're a nice couple in fairness.


  • #107
    dj jarvis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭dj jarvis


    but its not seen as taboo in all cultures , and plenty in Europe have no issue with public sex or nudity

    2 examples come to mind , I was at the love parade in 97 , and on the tiergarten in Berlin , ( think Phoenix park , but central Berlin ) , surrounded by 1.4 million others , a full blown ( pun not intended....... much ) porno movie was being shot in the crowd , not hand held cam ****e , proper crew set up , your grannys jaw would have fallen off at the sight of it , but nobody was fazed by this , all stood around for a few minutes and then left , as did i , stayed about 5 minutes and they wandered off , seen enough and was not shocked one bit , neither was the crowed as far as i could see.

    second is this guy that used to wander around Frankfurt bollic naked 24/7
    he would go to Sachsenhaushen ( temple bar ) with nothing on , except his yellow sports walk man , he would go into different bars and clubs , some had no issue with him , some did , i have seen him many times sitting at out side tables eating , with family's sitting next to him with no issues at all - in fact many would talk to him , he won the right in a German court to do this.

    so i think the question why do people have an issue with public sex and nudity is wrong , it should be , why do some people have an issue , and why do most of them come from certain country's and not others
    the muslin world would be a prime example , but so would Ireland , England and the US and Canada , but less so Germany , the Netherlands and Denmark
    and the Nordic countrys have no issues at all with getting naked in public


    my money is on the church and it teachings


  • #108
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    What if it was James and Christine from down the road, though? They're a nice couple in fairness.


    I still wouldn't want to see it. I don't care if it was Mila Kunis and Bradley Cooper. Don't get me wrong, I love porn, I love getting my freak on behind closed doors.

    I also love that I can choose to turn off the porn when I'm done, too much of a good thing and all that, and then I don't have to get my freak on all the time either, that's why when I get it on, it's freaky, rather than "Oh for fcuk, not this same old shìt, again!".

    That's what makes sex enjoyable, because it's not something I have to endure, it's something I enjoy when I choose to do it. Seeing it all the time 24/7 or engaging in sex 24/7, that takes all the fun out of it and it becomes a boring chore!

    I'm not desensitized to it, which is I think the point Patrick is trying to make about violence in the media. Imagine if you read about sex all the time, had to look at it all the time, you never get a break from sex, sex, sex... Pretty soon it'd lose it's lustre and you'd lose your libido, it just wouldn't be interesting any more, and then what would you do for entertainment or enjoyment?


  • #109
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Meh, I'm an atheist but would still think "Get a room". It's really not that repressed. If it were catholic repression how come there are people who don't want to be seeing sex acts in public but are quite happy to get up to all manner of freaky stuff in private? The Love Parade isn't your run-of-the-mill day in town either. Unusual stuff is to be expected at that.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Couple of people having a bit of fun on camera = national disgrace
    No it doesn't deserve to be a national scandal for sure. But would you think it was ok for young kids to see it? And if someone says "Won't someone think of the children!" they're an idiot.


  • #110
    dj jarvis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭dj jarvis


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Meh, I'm an atheist but would still think "Get a room". It's really not that repressed. If it were catholic repression how come there are people who don't want to be seeing sex acts in public but are quite happy to get up to all manner of freaky stuff in private? The Love Parade isn't your run-of-the-mill day in town either. Unusual stuff is to be expected at that.

    No it doesn't deserve to be a national scandal for sure. But would you think it was ok for young kids to see it? And if someone says "Won't someone think of the children!" they're an idiot.

    but my point is that what happened at the love parade , would never have happened in the UK the US or Ireland due to the prevailing attitudes , where as in the other country's i mentioned , its not seen as as big an issue if any,
    you cant deny that the Irish and British have a odd take on sex and nudity , at least compared to the Nordic nations and western Europe

    it if had happened here, it would have national news and the wolves on twitter and Facebook would have been out , but yet in the above mentioned nations its just a shoulder shrug and keep walking

    some people just want to be outraged , TBH i would not prefer see public sex , but its far from the end of the world , and lets face it , this all happened at music festivals , why are people so shocked ?


  • #111
    dar100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭dar100


    Clandestine wrote: »
    I don't regard it as my business, I think its something personal and should remain so. What people do behind closed doors is their business, I don't want to hear about it.

    If it was behind closed doors we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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  • #112
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    dj jarvis wrote: »
    you cant deny that the Irish and British have a odd take on sex and nudity , at least compared to the Nordic nations and western Europe
    I don't think it's as odd here and in Britain as some like to make out. I think people in general are far more relaxed re sex/sexuality than they are given credit for. If anything, people who are sexually conservative can be demonised. I remember feeling like a total loser due to being a virgin still at 17 - and that was a long time ago!

    There are sometimes stupid views on sexuality here all right - in particular when it comes to female sexuality, and then there's stuff people don't give a damn about, and then there's stuff people go on about as if you're a weirdo not to be doing it, when it's just personal preference.

    I think the age of consent should be lowered to 15 though - 17 is far too late. Not to be having sex (there is no magic age) but to be the age at which it only starts to become legal. And sex education/contraception availability for teenagers here is a joke. Sex education is of a far higher priority in the European countries you mentioned, and they have lower rates of teen pregnancies.
    I think some people view virginity as too "sacred" also - when you lose it you're the very same person you were beforehand. It's no big deal.


  • #113
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    I mostly don't enjoy watching others getting it on in public because, well they're doing it so wrong. Makes me think they're probably shíte in the sack. Gurgle gurgle gurgle


  • #114
    dj jarvis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭dj jarvis


    [QUOTE=Femme_Fatale;86113210]I don't think it's as odd here and in Britain as some like to make out. I think people in general are far more relaxed re sex/sexuality than they are given credit for. If anything, people who are sexually conservative can be demonised. I remember feeling like a total loser due to being a virgin still at 17 - and that was a long time ago!

    There are sometimes stupid views on sexuality here all right - in particular when it comes to female sexuality, and then there's stuff people don't give a damn about, and there's stuff people go on about as if you're a weirdo not to be doing it, when it's just personal preference.[/QUOTE]

    Trust me , its odd compared to the Nordic nations and western European nations,
    prime example is an add that used to run on Irish and British TV , for timotae shampoo , in Ireland the girl with the long blond hair standing in a boat is not naked and does not rub her titties , in Germany she was

    it would never have run here becasue the religious for one would have had a stroke if it was aired - not a bother on main land Europe

    that's not sexually conservative , that's sexually repressed IMO


  • #115
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    dj jarvis wrote: »
    but my point is that what happened at the love parade , would never have happened in the UK the US or Ireland due to the prevailing attitudes , where as in the other country's i mentioned , its not seen as as big an issue if any,


    You can't actually be serious? Of course it happens in the UK and the US. It's absolutely nothing to do with religion, those countries have much larger populations than Ireland so there is no one "prevailing culture".
    you cant deny that the Irish and British have a odd take on sex and nudity , at least compared to the Nordic nations and western Europe


    I can, but contradictory evidence is not something you're aware of. Google should help you with that.

    it if had happened here, it would have national news and the wolves on twitter and Facebook would have been out , but yet in the above mentioned nations its just a shoulder shrug and keep walking


    Much smaller population in Ireland for one thing, so less chance of anonymity, and it's not something that goes on every weekend in Germany or France either. There are plenty of places in any of those countries where public nudity or sex believe it or not ISN'T tolerated.

    some people just want to be outraged , TBH i would not prefer see public sex , but its far from the end of the world , and lets face it , this all happened at music festivals , why are people so shocked ?


    I'm not shocked, I couldn't care less tbh who chooses to get it on wherever and whenever, but nowadays it's no longer a case of "If you weren't there, you missed it!". Nowadays you can't piss sideways without some div recording it for posterity and sharing it with the world.

    Who are the people with issues? The people recording it to share it with the world, the people searching for it, or the people who REALLY don't care what two or more people get up to when they weren't there? I don't particularly care that in car parks, forests and fields, people up and down the country right now are getting their freak on.

    Does a bear shìt in the woods? Not while the other teddy bears are having a picnic he doesn't. That'd just be bad manners.


  • #116
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Yeh, some extremely conservative communities in France and Germany, especially southern Germany. More staunch than anywhere here I'd say.


  • #117
    dj jarvis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭dj jarvis


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You can't actually be serious? Of course it happens in the UK and the US. It's absolutely nothing to do with religion, those countries have much larger populations than Ireland so there is no one "prevailing culture".




    I can, but contradictory evidence is not something you're aware of. Google should help you with that.





    Much smaller population in Ireland for one thing, so less chance of anonymity, and it's not something that goes on every weekend in Germany or France either. There are plenty of places in any of those countries where public nudity or sex believe it or not ISN'T tolerated.





    I'm not shocked, I couldn't care less tbh who chooses to get it on wherever and whenever, but nowadays it's no longer a case of "If you weren't there, you missed it!". Nowadays you can't piss sideways without some div recording it for posterity and sharing it with the world.

    Who are the people with issues? The people recording it to share it with the world, the people searching for it, or the people who REALLY don't care what two or more people get up to when they weren't there? I don't particularly care that in car parks, forests and fields, people up and down the country right now are getting their freak on.

    Does a bear shìt in the woods? Not while the other teddy bears are having a picnic he doesn't. That'd just be bad manners.

    LOL - who pissed on your chips :rolleyes:

    so can you recall the last time a porno movie was filmed in either Ireland or the UK at a festival ? i would wager none seeing it would be illegal due to the prevailing attitudes forming the civil and public law that rules that land in the a fore mentioned country's

    as for your assertion about population size , does the US not have 250+ million and would not allow this , UK has 75 + million ect ect

    so go ahead , seeing you think goggle has "proof" of what i have mentioned on public tv and at street festivals in the UK or US and Ireland

    stop fooling yourself - you are honestly try to argue that Ireland , UK and US for example are are as liberal about public sex and nudity as the Nordic nations and western Europe ???

    good luck with that


  • #118
    dj jarvis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭dj jarvis


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Yeh, some extremely conservative communities in France and Germany, especially southern Germany. More staunch than anywhere here I'd say.

    that's true , but not applicable to the MAJORITY of the nation , its the opposite here , more would be outraged than not , hence why they don't make porno's ont eh street here and show topless models in hair ads

    did one of the toilet paper rags not ban page 3 as they felt the Irish customer did not want it , due to " cultural differences "

    or maybe its just me that has noticed the HUGE chasm between the islands and main land Europe

    right wing relgious nutters in every country , some countrys just have more than others , as i have already stated


  • #119
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Does a bear shìt in the woods? Not while the other teddy bears are having a picnic he doesn't. That'd just be bad manners.
    brilliant.


    There are so many angles in this thread it's difficult to address them individually and without my tongue stuck firmly in my cheek. I don't see how not wanting to see others in a sexual way in public means people are sexually repressed. They're most likely people who favour intimacy as equated with privacy over exhibitionism.
    There are people who get their kicks out of public demonstration but they probably wouldn't if it didn't challenge the concept of acceptable, forbidden pleasures with all the bells on.

    The lines are as much cultural as they are psychological so there is no one size fits all in this issue as far as I can see.


  • #120
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    dj jarvis wrote: »
    stop fooling yourself - you are honestly try to argue that Ireland , UK and US for example are are as liberal about public sex and nudity as the Nordic nations and western Europe ???

    good luck with that


    You spend a weekend in Germany and you think you know it all.

    I'm not young enough to know everything.


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  • #121
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    I think the "it's all about catholic guilt" point is true but only to an extent.

    As someone pointed out on page one, males have a stake in what "their" women get up to and have controlled their reproduction as result.
    From the point of view of your genes, spending time raising young that aren't yours is a massive waste of time.

    Those principles were relevant once upon a time. Now that women are people too and can control their own sexuality, now that sexuality isn't only about the babbies and now that we're slowly coming around to the idea that authoritarianism is bad (albeit with some alarming hiccups along the way) the taboos about sex are starting to make less and less sense.

    In terms of your rights - you shouldn't have the right to not see sex.
    Seeing sex won't break your children.
    The notion of seeing your parents have sex seems revolting to most people. That doesn't make any sense.

    To be perfectly honest, seeing two people having sex in front of me shouldn't perturb me any more than seeing them eat a sandwich.

    At least in the case of defecation, pretty much alone in terms of bodily functions, it's dirty, so prohibiting where it can happen and having taboos some about that still make sense.

    Taboos about the naked body and sex are juvenile and immoral.


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