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Possession: How do you translate a name + 's form into Irish? (Patrick's/Mary's book)

  • 14-08-2013 01:14PM
    #1
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭


    Read a few articles on possession but they all focus on areas like "his book, my book" or "the book is hers", "the book is "mine" etc.
    I'm very specifically wondering how one would translate possession regarding a named individual, so "Patrick's book / Mary's book". I'm assuming it's going to take a form like "The book of Patrick / Mary" like many other languages but I can't find any references to this type of possession, which seems strange...


Comments

  • #2
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    The tuiseal ginideach is used to denote possession.

    Genitive case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive

    With most names that would involve lenition (use of a séimhiú) of the initial consonant and slenderization/palatalization (sticking in the letter "i") of the final syllable.

    Mary's book: Leabhar + Máire -> leabhar Mháire
    Patrick's well: tobar + Pádraig -> Tobar Phádraig
    Seán's house: teach + Seán -> teach Sheáin

    Palatalization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization
    Lenition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenition


  • #3
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Thanks :D Ironically the reason I wanted to know was because I wanted to ask about a friend's leaving cert results in Irish and hadn't a clue how to properly format the question :D

    Guy's name is Ivan, so I said "An bhfuil aon sceal faoi an ardteist Ivan?" As Ivan isn't an Irish name I wasn't sure how to do it, I thought about writing something like "Ibhfáin" but that seemed massively over the top :D


  • #4
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Guy's name is Ivan, so I said "An bhfuil aon sceal faoi an ardteist Ivan?" As Ivan isn't an Irish name I wasn't sure how to do it, I thought about writing something like "Ibhfáin" but that seemed massively over the top :D

    You'd be surprised! :) I have a friend who spells his name Ibhán.

    One other thing that I forgot to mention earlier is that you don't need to use the definite article/an t-alt ("an"/"na") with the first noun in the Tuiseal Ginideach.
    From your example, "about Ivan's Leaving Cert" would be "faoi Ardteist Ibháin".

    I think with non-native names you'd probably get away with the standard spelling, but someone else might be able to give you more advice on that.


  • #5
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    ...
    I think with non-native names you'd probably get away with the standard spelling, but someone else might be able to give you more advice on that.
    I'd take a stronger position: I think that you should not Gaelicise any name unless the person whose name it is wants it done.


  • #6
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I'd take a stronger position: I think that you should not Gaelicise any name unless the person whose name it is wants it done.

    Agreed. Names don't "translate". If Shaun is your name, Shaun is your name. At best, there is an Irish "version" of your name, but it is not your *actual* name.


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  • #7
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I'd take a stronger position: I think that you should not Gaelicise any name unless the person whose name it is wants it done.

    I agree with you there. What I meant was not applying the TG go non-Gaelicised names as well. What would your stance be on that?

    Eg, Leabhar Carlos -v- Leabhar Charlois,
    Ríomhaire Muhammad -v- Ríomhaire Mhuhammaid,
    Gúna Precious -v- Gúna Phrecious?


  • #8
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    I agree with you there. What I meant was not applying the TG go non-Gaelicised names as well. What would your stance be on that?

    Eg, Leabhar Carlos -v- Leabhar Charlois,
    Ríomhaire Muhammad -v- Ríomhaire Mhuhammaid,
    Gúna Precious -v- Gúna Phrecious?
    Not to do it generally. Definitely not in writing. Sometimes English words (not necessarily an TG, but other grammatical rules) are applied by speakers in speech to aid flow etc. I'd see no problem with that.


  • #9
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    I agree with you there. What I meant was not applying the TG go non-Gaelicised names as well. What would your stance be on that?

    Eg, Leabhar Carlos -v- Leabhar Charlois,
    Ríomhaire Muhammad -v- Ríomhaire Mhuhammaid,
    Gúna Precious -v- Gúna Phrecious?
    Once you are in Irish-language mode, I think Irish grammar and syntax rules apply, so I'd favour the second option in each of your examples.

    While I respect the integrity of a personal name, I also want to respect the integrity of the Irish language. So I won't change Carlos to Cathal or Séarlas, but when I import the word Carlos into Irish, it would get the same treatment as any other word I use in Irish.


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