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A right wing party

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    #32
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Because someone has to try and stop this country spending money that we're having to borrow. We can't afford to have some the highest paid unemployed, PS, politicians or pensioners anywhere in the developed world.
    You're panicking.

    By that I mean that you correctly note that current policies and political options are either not working or at least working very, very slowly, so out of a sense of panic and desperation you desire radical action to be taken to tackle what you see as the immediate problems in society.

    Problem with that is that radical solutions always have consequences, often worse that the problems they seek to solve. Prohibition in the US was a radical, populist, solution to the problem of alcoholism, yet had to be abandoned a decade later because the problems it engendered far outstripped any benefits it brought. Fascism and communism both restored law and order and got people back to work, but also resulted in loss of freedom and other devastating consequences too.

    I think you've not thought this through; certainly a 'right-wing' party could address the issues you've raised, but then what? What happens in the longer term? You appear to have placed zero thought in how it all plays out and are focusing on some desperate need to do something now and worry about the consequences later.


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    #33
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Because someone has to try and stop this country spending money that we're having to borrow. We can't afford to have some the highest paid unemployed, PS, politicians or pensioners anywhere in the developed world.
    FG are a bunch of spineless do nothings. They had the mandate to so something to help sort the country out when they were first elected but bottled it.

    ya don't go after those responsible or anything crazy like that


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    #34
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You're panicking.

    By that I mean that you correctly note that current policies and political options are either not working or at least working very, very slowly, so out of a sense of panic and desperation you desire radical action to be taken to tackle what you see as the immediate problems in society.

    Problem with that is that radical solutions always have consequences, often worse that the problems they seek to solve. Prohibition in the US was a radical, populist, solution to the problem of alcoholism, yet had to be abandoned a decade later because the problems it engendered far outstripped any benefits it brought. Fascism and communism both restored law and order and got people back to work, but also resulted in loss of freedom and other devastating consequences too.

    I think you've not thought this through; certainly a 'right-wing' party could address the issues you've raised, but then what? What happens in the longer term? You appear to have placed zero thought in how it all plays out and are focusing on some desperate need to do something now and worry about the consequences later.

    I can't believe a Mod from the business forum is chiding me for wanting to cut costs when income doesn't match expenditure!

    Five years into this crisis and you think I'm panicking! What are you waiting for before the penny finally drops that we can't repay our debts?

    What is radical about not spending what you don't have? It's just basic common sense not an 'ism'.

    People managed fine before Bertie bribed everyone with all the additional little bonuses and allowances he gave to the unions and pensioners.

    Example: Why do we have the most generous fuel allowance of any country in Europe? Are we the coldest country? No we're not by a long shot.

    Four/five years of a right wing government, then let the old favourites back in. They might return some of the cuts but they won't all of them.


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    #35
    Gergiev
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Gergiev


    Don't overlook Declan Ganley's current manoeuvrings.

    I was down at his inaugural 'rally' a few weeks ago and the place was packed to the rafters, somewhere between 600 and 800 ppl, I reckon.

    Shaping up as socially conservative and economically liberal although the speeches were necessarily broadbrush for an initial gathering and not issue or ideology specific, with the exception of being strongly anti-abortion.

    My guess is it could be the beginning of a Christian Democratic party in Ireland as Fine Gael are generally speaking just a load of people who were born into FG families or background with no particular definition of why they are in politics

    Irish people or parties for the main part don't 'do' ideology but the lack of a philosophical basis for our politics (as opposed to ideology) is hurting us hard, as we're invariably presented with ideas copied from other societies, sometimes with very little relevance to our own circumstances, and sometimes just as these policies are about to come unstuck elsewhere...

    Will be interesting to see how the Ganley project plays out...


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    #36
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #37
    themusicman
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭themusicman


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    I am one of those 'vocal minorities' you speak of. Why am I in the minority when I believe that a country that is being held to ransom by unelected trade unionists and representative bodies, is a country going nowhere - especially one that is bankrupt?

    Can the majority not see that? Why not? Are they so stupid to believe 'ah shure it'll be grand'? They're wrong 100%!!!

    Yesterday's OECD figures showing Irish secondary teachers working 700-odd hours a year v the European average of 1300. Teachers that are the third highest paid in the OECD, working nearly half of what their colleagues in countries that are not bankrupt. Can the majority not see what's wrong here?

    It's wrong, so bloody wrong and it makes me so bloody angry!!!

    Can you link that figure about Irish secondary teachers hours v European average please.....Because I can't find them as you have indicated in Education at a Glance 2013 which I presume is the OECD report you are referring to.

    Facts are important.....especially when discussing the real influences on our situation as opposed to the points of view that often get bandied about and shape people's opinions and then, sometimes years later are discovered to be false


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    #38
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Don't be ridiculous. I'm not chiding you for wanting to cut superfluous costs, I'm not suggesting that much of the pay and conditions in the social welfare system, civil service or elsewhere point to a broken system. I completely agree with you on most of that.

    I'm criticizing your belief that turning to any political extreme will solve this, or at least solve this without leaving behind greater problems than it found.

    Try to focus on what I'm saying, not on what feeds your emotional narrative.
    Example: Why do we have the most generous fuel allowance of any country in Europe? Are we the coldest country? No we're not by a long shot.
    Always felt like Ireland was the coldest country in Europe to me, but that's more to do with the piss-poor quality of construction and insulation of Irish homes.
    Permabear wrote: »
    Radical, populist policies were implemented in Ireland between 2000 and 2008, when state spending went up by 140 percent, child benefit increased fourfold, the education budget tripled, and dole payments and the state pension more than doubled.
    Not the type of 'radical' I'm criticizing.


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    #39
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I'm criticizing your belief that turning to any political extreme will solve this, or at least solve this without leaving behind greater problems than it found.

    And I'm saying common sense is not an extreme political viewpoint. It may be deemed more right wing than the 'let's keep everyone happy' we have at the moment but it's what this country needs.


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    #40
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    And I'm saying common sense is not an extreme political viewpoint. It may be deemed more right wing than the 'let's keep everyone happy' we have at the moment but it's what this country needs.
    Then try to define what you mean by 'right wing'. Centre-right parties, such as FG and FF are clearly not doing it for you, so how much further right would you like to go? In European terms are we talking Fini's 'Futuro e Libertà' party (which incidentally would likely do exactly the same as FG, as despite his neo-Fascist roots, he's just another centre-right politician now), or further along the spectrum where they're willing to take the tough decisions, like Jobbik or Golden Dawn?

    The problem is that you're kind of fuzzy on all that; all you've suggested is support for a more right-wing party that will 'get things done' as it were. From what I can see, that pretty much means you're going to have to opt for the more radical, extreme ideologies as unfortunately everyone else is wrapped up in this 'middle-ground' inertia.

    And once you start inviting in the extremes - left or right - to get things done, it has less to do with common sense as it does with desperation.


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    #41
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    themusicman wrote: »
    Can you link that figure about Irish secondary teachers hours v European average please.....Because I can't find them as you have indicated in Education at a Glance 2013 which I presume is the OECD report you are referring to.

    Facts are important.....especially when discussing the real influences on our situation as opposed to the points of view that often get bandied about and shape people's opinions and then, sometimes years later are discovered to be false


    This was all in the news this week but as usual the next story came along and this was forgotten. You'll find the facts here if you want to look

    http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/education/education-at-a-glance-2013_eag-2013-en


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    #42
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Then try to define what you mean by 'right wing'. Centre-right parties, such as FG and FF are clearly not doing it for you, so how much further right would you like to go? In European terms are we talking Fini's 'Futuro e Libertà' party (which incidentally would likely do exactly the same as FG, as despite his neo-Fascist roots, he's just another centre-right politician now), or further along the spectrum where they're willing to take the tough decisions, like Jobbik or Golden Dawn?

    The problem is that you're kind of fuzzy on all that; all you've suggested is support for a more right-wing party that will 'get things done' as it were. From what I can see, that pretty much means you're going to have to opt for the more radical, extreme ideologies as unfortunately everyone else is wrapped up in this 'middle-ground' inertia.

    And once you start inviting in the extremes - left or right - to get things done, it has less to do with common sense as it does with desperation.

    This country could do with a good dose of Thatcherism right now.

    Weakening the position of the trade unions is the first and most important step we need to take. Wouldn't take long, I'd have them bankrupt in six months. Once they're gone we can start reducing the pay of the utility companies and PS properly.


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    #43
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Nothing to do with desperation btw....

    I spent nearly 10 years trying to work with trade unions in the UK - the print unions. I've walked past the picket lines in Wapping, scum of the earth every one of them. You couldn't negotiate with them you just had to by-pass them and get to where you want to go without them.

    Remember at all times, trade unions are parasites - they feed on their host until it's dead. Then they move on to their next host.

    If anyone can tell me different I'll be impressed! ;)


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    #44
    themusicman
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭themusicman


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    This was all in the news this week but as usual the next story came along and this was forgotten. You'll find the facts here if you want to look

    http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/education/education-at-a-glance-2013_eag-2013-en

    I looked at that document

    Indicator D4....how much time do teachers spend teaching. Average in lower secondary 709 hours, upper secondary 664 hours. In Ireland it's 735 hours.

    That means Irish secondary teachers spend above average time teaching.

    That contradicts your statement hence I asked for a link to ensure we were reading the same document.


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    #45
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    themusicman wrote: »
    I looked at that document

    Indicator D4....how much time do teachers spend teaching. Average in lower secondary 709 hours, upper secondary 664 hours. In Ireland it's 735 hours.

    That means Irish secondary teachers spend above average time teaching.

    That contradicts your statement hence I asked for a link to ensure we were reading the same document.

    It was a chart in Tuesday's Indo and they mentioned it on Newstalk Breakfast as well. Indo charts aren't run on-line :(


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    #46
    themusicman
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭themusicman


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    It was a chart in Tuesday's Indo and they mentioned it on Newstalk Breakfast as well. Indo charts aren't run on-line :(

    That's fair enough, and I appreciate you taking the time to reply, the chart in the indicator D4 has Ireland correctly placed just above the average.
    However lies damn lies etc springs to mind...
    I have no problem with the concept of a correct and meaningful reform of the public service....however the starting place of any reform has to be accurately identified....

    Ireland is almost unique amongst european countries in that teachers hours are solely measured in terms of class contact, as opposed to all the elements of meetings, preparation, marking etc which are time credited in the contracts teachers in other countries have.

    Regarding the reporting in the media...
    A mention on newstalk breakfast is, like all media, subject to the historian's anaylsis of the bias of the source....
    I have no doubt the INTO will spin the figures to suit their agenda too!!!

    The truth however.....


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    #47
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    It'll be interesting to see what he comes up with regarding a political party.
    Like all the rest, I fear it may be another 'catch all' party.

    As has been alluded to earlier, our borrowing despite austerity is still excessive.
    I'm pessimistic we'll ever get politicians to tackle our economic issues as the system doesn't lend itself to this.

    I'm in tipperary and noticed a number of people speculating what Tom Hayes would 'do' for the constituency. Yet the same people bemoan politicians who don't make the tough decisions at national level.

    Lowry is another example. We all know what he is. I was chatting to a guy who'd be Fianna Fáil yet was full of praise for Lowry in getting funding for the improvements made to the local GAA pitch:rolleyes: it's ironic that people vote in guys like Lowry and Wallace yet bemoan 'the state' of the country

    I believe that our current budget deficit is completely unsustainable. Unfortunately any political party that would tackle this issue would be politically toxic. And we all know that any politicians primary objective is reelection!


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    #48
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    rumour wrote: »
    Are yo checking out opinions on a state salary from one of our institutionally recognized parties?

    Seriously your OP really appears that way.

    Yeah, rumour. You've unmasked me. I'm actually enda fcuking Kenny:rolleyes:


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    #49
    Dracula88
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Dracula88


    Through out the years we have heard many stories regarding Republicanism. Over the years a lot of the Irish have supported Republicanism. The thing most people don't understand is that Republicanism is associated with left wing politics. If the majority of people in Government Buildings support Republicanism then we have a majority of left wing politicians.


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    #50
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Depends on your definition of a Republic, and there's been many of those. The optimates of the Roman Republic were republicans too, opposing the introduction of de-facto monarchy under Julius Caesar and Octavian, but I doubt you could call them 'left wing'.

    The conspirators in the 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt were conservatives that sought to retain the old Soviet political system rather than continue with reforms. They were considered right wing; yet they were also communists, so should they not be considered left wing?

    The whole left-right wing model is a lot more complex that most people realize and is not so easily distilled with a few labels.


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    #51
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Dracula88 wrote: »
    Through out the years we have heard many stories regarding Republicanism. Over the years a lot of the Irish have supported Republicanism. The thing most people don't understand is that Republicanism is associated with left wing politics. If the majority of people in Government Buildings support Republicanism then we have a majority of left wing politicians.
    no we don't FF and FG are right wing


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    #52
    green_bow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 94 ✭✭green_bow


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    no we don't FF and FG are right wing


    not in an economic sense , FF have always been to the left economically and FG are dead centre fiscally , they are still populist though not to the degree FF is


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    #53
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    green_bow wrote: »
    not in an economic sense , FF have always been to the left economically and FG are dead centre fiscally , they are still populist though not to the degree FF is

    so my political science lecturer was wrong calling FF right wing as has been every book on Irish politics I've looked at? thanks for clearing that up


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    #54
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    so my political science lecturer was wrong calling FF right wing as has been every book on Irish politics I've looked at? thanks for clearing that up
    Your political science lecturer was correct if (s)he was referring to FF being socially right wing. However, economically they've been very left wing historically (except for during the Celtic Tiger where the success of more right wing policies caused their popularist tendencies to override this default position).

    It's not black and white; left and right wing are often not so easy to compartmentalize. Maybe you needed to listen to your political science lecturer a little more closely.


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    #55
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Your political science lecturer was correct if (s)he was referring to FF being socially right wing. However, economically they've been very left wing historically (except for during the Celtic Tiger where the success of more right wing policies caused their popularist tendencies to override this default position).

    It's not black and white; left and right wing are often not so easy to compartmentalize. Maybe you needed to listen to your political science lecturer a little more closely.


    ahh there is our misunderstanding the only FF policies ive lived through are celtic tiger one so to me they are right

    i'll try but lectures can be so tiresome


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    #56
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    ahh there is our misunderstanding the only FF policies ive lived through are celtic tiger one so to me they are right
    And what were FF's policies with regard to the public sector salaries or social welfare during that period then? Right wing?


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    #57
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    And what were FF's policies with regard to the public sector salaries or social welfare during that period then? Right wing?

    populism trying to gain support by giving a gift to the working class while pandering to big business


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    #58
    green_bow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 94 ✭✭green_bow


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    so my political science lecturer was wrong calling FF right wing as has been every book on Irish politics I've looked at? thanks for clearing that up

    that's a laugh , quoting your college lecturer

    the vast majority of university academics in this country are to the left of joe Higgins


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    #59
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    green_bow wrote: »
    that's a laugh , quoting your college lecturer

    the vast majority of university academics in this country are to the left of joe Higgins
    according to you this lad came across as a bit of a green


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    #60
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    populism trying to gain support by giving a gift to the working class while pandering to big business
    That's a bit lazy; if they did anything 'left' wing it was populism and anything 'right' wing it's because they believed in it?

    Given that they were previously economically 'left' wing, one would more logically conclude that it was the the adoption of PD sponsored economic policies that was populist, not the other way around, simply because it suits your thesis.

    Truth is that the very existence of populism in FF policy, something that is neither left nor right wing, alone should make you reconsider the use of lazy labels such as left or right wing when describing anything or anyone.

    As I said, it's not so black and white.


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    #61
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    no we don't FF and FG are right wing
    laoch na mona wrote: »
    so my political science lecturer was wrong calling FF right wing as has been every book on Irish politics I've looked at? thanks for clearing that up

    Your lecturer told you that FF were right wing? He was wrong, and you can take the bucket loads of money they pumped into health, tax cuts they gave to every man and his dog and the obscene welfare increases, including the brilliant xmas bonus, among countless other things, as proof that he or she is wrong. No right wing party would have done any of that.

    There term right wing is grossly misused and misunderstood in this country. I get the feeling that many see it as another term to describe a party that is unpopular.


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