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Why do religious believers need 'faith'?

135

Comments

  • #62
    Sandals and Shorts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 51 ✭✭Sandals and Shorts


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Why repeatedly ?

    Because Christ said to keep on asking :

    "Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. …Therefore, if you… know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?"

    Of course even the thought of even having to ask once, never mind to go on asking will make many ego's out there feel like bursting into flames with rage.


  • #63
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Why repeatedly ?

    Because if you repeat a lie often enough eventually you start to believe it.


  • #64
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    Because Christ said to keep on asking :

    "Keep on asking, and it will be given you;

    I tried asking for a Lexus LF-A, that didn't work. :pac:


  • #65
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,850 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    You could always try repeatedly asking "God, if you are there, grant me faith"

    But could your ego's stand it ? Probably not.

    But how can I do that if I have no faith in god? Seems to me that you need faith in god in order to ask for faith from god, which would imply that you can only have faith in god, if god has already given you faith in him. So why again are we judged for not having faith that god doesn't give us?


  • #66
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,850 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I tried asking for a Lexus LF-A, that didn't work. :pac:

    When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. Emo Philips.

    :pac:


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  • #67
    Sandals and Shorts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 51 ✭✭Sandals and Shorts


    kylith wrote: »
    Because if you repeat a lie often enough eventually you start to believe it.

    That's the misconceptions about believers well summarised


  • #68
    Sandals and Shorts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 51 ✭✭Sandals and Shorts


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    But how can I do that if I have no faith in god? Seems to me that you need faith in god in order to ask for faith from god, which would imply that you can only have faith in god, if god has already given you faith in him. So why again are we judged for not having faith that god doesn't give us?

    You missed the "if you're there" bit. You have to be open to the possibility and sincere about it, if you're not then that would be a bit pointless.


  • #69
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    You missed the "if you're there bit", and being sincere. Of course you have to be open to the possibility, if you're not then that would be a bit pointless.

    So one has to be open to the possibility that asking Jesus for the ability to believe in Jesus in order for one to receive the ability to believe in Jesus...
    How pointless is that! Surely it's the ones who are not already pre-disposed towards belief who need to be garnered?


  • #70
    Sandals and Shorts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 51 ✭✭Sandals and Shorts


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    So one has to be open to the possibility that asking Jesus for the ability to believe in Jesus in order for one to receive the ability to believe in Jesus...
    How pointless is that! Surely it's the ones who are not already pre-disposed towards belief who need to be garnered?

    I would have thought a genuine agnostic would have the ability to sincerely ask "God, if you exist . . ."
    That's where the ego test comes in.


  • #71
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    I would have thought a genuine agnostic would have the ability to sincerely ask "God, if you exist . . ."
    That's where the ego test comes in.

    I'm a genuine atheist - far as I'm concerned I may as well ask the Tooth Fairy if she exists while I am about it.


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  • #72
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    I would have thought a genuine agnostic would have the ability to sincerely ask "God, if you exist . . ."
    That's where the ego test comes in.

    OK. I'll bite. Asking now. How should I phrase the question? Any formalities?


  • #73
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Sarky wrote: »
    Why do random posters always think they can out-history Bannasidhe? It's like they never read any of the threads where she's shredded such folks before...

    Their egos can't take being beaten.


  • #74
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Sarky wrote: »
    Why do random posters always think they can out-history Bannasidhe? It's like they never read any of the threads where she's shredded such folks before...

    Laziness. Tis easier than self flagellation.


  • #75
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    Because Christ said to keep on asking :

    "Keep on asking...........

    Repetition is hypnotic, repetition is hypnotic, repetition is hypnotic

    http://www.adam-eason.com/2011/04/13/using-repetition-in-hypnosis-and-hypnotherapy/


    You can/will do yourself serious damage way too easily by doing things you don't understand/want to understand


  • #76
    Sandals and Shorts
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 51 ✭✭Sandals and Shorts


    endacl wrote: »
    OK. I'll bite. Asking now. How should I phrase the question? Any formalities?

    No, just sincerity


  • #77
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Sandals and Shorts wrote: »
    No, just sincerity

    Ah, but if it doesn't work, you'll just claim I wasn't sincere enough. If I am sincere, it would suggest a sincere need for an answer. That I would eventually, with enough sincerity (or desperation perhaps?) hear the answer I wanted or needed?

    This needs a double-blind test. I'm going to need another godless heathen to not ask, so we can compare results. Any volunteers?


  • #78
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    endacl wrote: »
    Ah, but if it doesn't work, you'll just claim I wasn't sincere enough. If I am sincere, it would suggest a sincere need for an answer. That I would eventually, with enough sincerity (or desperation perhaps?) hear the answer I wanted or needed?

    This needs a double-blind test. I'm going to need another godless heathen to not ask, so we can compare results. Any volunteers?

    Yeah, yeah, I won't do it.


  • #79
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    endacl wrote: »
    Ah, but if it doesn't work, you'll just claim I wasn't sincere enough. If I am sincere, it would suggest a sincere need for an answer. That I would eventually, with enough sincerity (or desperation perhaps?) hear the answer I wanted or needed?

    This needs a double-blind test. I'm going to need another godless heathen to not ask, so we can compare results. Any volunteers?

    How can we volunteer to not ask? I'm not asking right now but I certainly didn't volunteer to do it. It's just my mind being occupied with other stuff. Me thinks you need to come up with a more robust methodology for your double blind test.


  • #80
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    endacl wrote: »
    Ah, but if it doesn't work, you'll just claim I wasn't sincere enough. If I am sincere, it would suggest a sincere need for an answer. That I would eventually, with enough sincerity (or desperation perhaps?) hear the answer I wanted or needed?

    This needs a double-blind test. I'm going to need another godless heathen to not ask, so we can compare results. Any volunteers?

    I've heard NOTHING back from Caeser yet - should I switch to Augustus? We do have contemporary evidence he actually existed and I have read documents declaring his divinity....


  • #81
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Yeah, yeah, I won't do it.

    Cool. No interaction for an hour or so? I'll ask every ten minutes or so? You just get on with your day? Compare results at about 4:30?


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  • #82
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Jernal wrote: »
    How can we volunteer to not ask? I'm not asking right now but I certainly didn't volunteer to do it. It's just my mind being occupied with other stuff. Me thinks you need to come up with a more robust methodology for your double blind test.

    Hey it's a start. I'm no scienticionogist. Others can examine my findings and improve on the methodology. That's how it works, isn't it?

    Too late anyway. Pheredykes is already in. The experiment is underway!

    See y'all at 4:15.

    :D


  • #83
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    endacl wrote: »
    Cool. No interaction for an hour or so? I'll ask every ten minutes or so? You just get on with your day? Compare results at about 4:30?

    Dammit, I think I fecked it up. I think I was sincere there for a mo.

    I'm having difficulty doing nowt.


  • #84
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    Faith is not simply about believing God exists. You could be a theist and not have faith, for example.

    Instead faith is about investment. Christians have faith in the promises made in the Bible, and submit themselves to the doctrine of Christianity.


  • #85
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    OK. My results are in and ready for peer review before publication.

    Sincerely asked at 10 minute intervals. Thought I heard something at the third attempt, but on closer inspection it turned out to be an ice cream van a couple of streets over. False positive.

    How did you get on Pheredykes?

    Edit: Remember 'atheism is an ice cream'? Is god taking the proverbial?!?


  • #86
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    endacl wrote: »
    How did you get on Pheredykes?

    Eh, what was I supposed to be doing?

    I had a nice cuppa while watching Mo Farah win the 10k. I also spotted God in the Luzhniki...


  • #87
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    New history thread here.

    Second spin off thread. :)


  • #88
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Eh, what was I supposed to be doing?

    I had a nice cuppa while watching Mo Farah win the 10k. I also spotted God in the Luzhniki...
    But you didn't 'hear' god? Seeing god is outside the experimental parameters. That was most likely a man with a beard that you saw.


  • #89
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,253 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    endacl wrote: »
    But you didn't 'hear' god? Seeing god is outside the experimental parameters. That was most likely a man with a beard that you saw.

    Man with a beard? That's the funniest ever...

    Everyone knows God is female:

    1342800732-russian-long-jumper-darya-klishina_1344897.jpg


  • #90
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,435 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Man with a beard? That's the funniest ever...

    Everyone knows God is female:

    1342800732-russian-long-jumper-darya-klishina_1344897.jpg

    Damn. I'm converted. Where do I sign up?!?

    :D


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  • #91
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,550 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    I never really understood this but maybe I'm missing something obvious.

    You may well be right.



    You say:
    Faith is belief in something with insufficient or negligible evidence because if there was sufficient evidence then we wouldn't need faith. I think that's an uncontroversial definition to start off with.


    Hebrews 11:11 says
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


    Faith consists of substance and evidence. And so, the person believes because there is substantial, evidenced reason to. So much for uncontroversial!





    The issue distills down to what you understand by substance and evidence. The naturalist will insist that the only substance/evidence that counts is that which is empirically demonstrable. That viewpoint is, of course, a philisophical one - the truth of which cannot be demonstrated empirically. And so, the naturalists viewpoint is a faith based one. Faith, in the sense defined by you that is.


    -


    And so, if God exists and evidences himself to people (albeit in a way not discernible empirically) then peoples faith is per the bibles definition and not yours. And if he doesn't and therefore doesn't, then not. For want of a way of knowing, you'll need to remain agnostic on the matter.


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