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Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

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Comments

  • #872
    Love2u
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Love2u


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    First, off you are clearly sympathizing with them given that you do not mention the inhumane act that they do in order to be a candidate for the death penalty, but call the penalty itself inhumane.You did not introduce any logic into your argument, it is all opinion-based. You are sympathizing with them otherwise you would not say "even until they die if that is necessary". The word even tells me that it is almost too much for your too put them in prison for life. So someone who is a death penalty candidate may have the right to get out of prison at one point?

    It is not my "twisted logic" that tells me that that person does not believe Hitler's crimes did not warrant the death penalty. It is the fact that the person came out and said straight up "he did not deserve it at all." Therefore, he believes his actions did not warrant the death penalty. Were you awake when writing this? I do not believe I ever said it was condoning the actions, but it is sympathizing with the actions and the monster. HUGE DIFFERENCE, AND YOU JUST PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

    [B]More importantly though, how come the criminal has the right to end the life of an innocent human being without any regard or reason but the State which creates, enforces, and interprets the laws does not have the right to kill such a person? You are giving a convicted criminal more power than the State which oversees all of society, for the betterment of society. Makes absolutely no sense.

    Justice is the equity of treatment and fairness. We use punishments of justice for all acts, so why does the death penalty differ? Your twisted logic and emotions tell you otherwise I will assume. It is not hypocritical, because then you are saying that only certain crimes of equal punishment are hypocritical. Which in itself, is the definition of hypocrisy.

    It is justice though, yes. Our punishments are set up on the basis of the act, -since the beginning of civilization- because humans directly relate the magnitude of a crime with the magnitude of punishment. Because it makes sense. Should you be in prison for a parking citation? No. How about selling heroin? Yes. As a society we create punishments that we deem fair, the parking citation cost is the cost of what society deems fair for illegally parking, the prison term is a time sentence of what society deems fair for illegally selling drugs. Why should death yield a different outcome? You yourself are being hypocritical if you think justice should be sought for only certain crimes. The death penalty is an act of justice, just like any other punishment we enforce. [/B]

    Okay, and why did only 1 person who said by the way said "Hitler did not deserve it at all" address the Hitler thing? I well tell you why.

    Because everyone in their right mind believes he would have deserved the death penalty. What is the difference between him and another murderer though? This is the question.

    At what number did it become awful: 1,2,3,50,000, millionth? Or was it the method he used?

    Everyone said "oh, b-b-b-b-b-b but that's different" How?

    There is no difference to each individual, which by the way if you truly cared about society then you would care about each innocent individual who make up society. You know, their families and their lives are ruined but somehow they are no longer part of society? Well, at least they were before they were killed. At what number should we have been like "Alright Hitler, now you deserve to die, come on that last one was a bit over the top"? Because if you feel as though it is the sheer quantitative aspect then you are demeaning the life of an innocent individual. So according to your logic, Hitler did not deserve the death penalty if he would have killed 1 Slav, but since he killed millions he does. So when you are murdered in a large group in a chamber you deserve justice, but when you are murdered alone in the street by a rapist you do not? That same sense of fear overcomes you, that seem realization that you are about to die hits you, and you cease to exist in the same way. Makes no sense at all. If you are intentionally murdered you deserve justice no matter what the circumstances are.

    At the end of the day, you are taking someone's only guaranteed life that we know of away from them and altering the life of those around them. You say you care about society- well then you would care about the individuals that make up society. You are referring to society as if we are aliens from another planet, we are society - you and I and the others- so if someone on here was a victim then as an individual of society they would deserve justice, that is if you care about society. Just because we do not bat an eyelid when we hear of murder on the news every night around the world, does not make it anymore just. If you take someone's life or do another terrible act just as bad, you do not deserve the right to life. I do not care about vengeance, deterrence, political beliefs, religious beliefs, etc. if someone takes someone else's only life away that we know of then they should not have their right to life. If you cared about society so much then you would look around you and see all of the horrible acts done and realize those victims are a part of society, or at least once were...

    Yawn! Boring!


  • #873
    Love2u
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Love2u


    wprathead wrote: »
    ..but a criminal DOESN'T have "right to kill"- that is why they are sent to prison..

    If a "criminal doesn't have the right to kill" why would we have the right to kill through the death penalty! ?? This thread is getting ridiculous now.


  • #874
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    wonderfullife wrote: »
    I'm sure most of this has been addressed but it's a long thread :) I'll give it my best shot to make this worth reading, whether you agree with the sentiment or not.

    So, "some crimes" you say:

    1. Premeditated Murder. Why? Murder is murder. Sure, it can be broken down to various sub-sets and circumstances but it remains murder, irrespective of state of mind.

    Anyway, In recent years, the courts have really re-defined the classic notion of pre-meditation. We tend to view premeditation as scheming and hatching the plan over days or weeks and commit the crime.

    Yet legally, premeditation can mean within seconds of the murder occurring.

    So you could find yourself in a situation where you head off to the cinema with your partner and somewhere between leaving home and getting home, a sequence of events occur and you kill someone. You didn't leave the house planning it but legally that act could be determined to be premeditated.

    So you feel that too deserves death? Or do you want to stick to the old fashioned black and white, clear cut, movie style premeditation?

    2. Serial Rape? How many? 2? 3? 4? 5? And if you want death for someone who rapes 3 people, why not twice? And how about if you rape the same person 3-times?

    More to the point, if it's death for serial rapists, where is the deterrent to stop them raping in the first place? "ah sure it's grand i'm not even on my first strike, i'll rape her and her, i'll only get 6-12 years sure tops, but 3rd time i'll be careful with it".

    3. Child Abuse. Vile. But again where's the line here? Death for all child abusers? So death for someone who physically abuses a child with slapping, punching, hair pulling and death for someone who rapes a child? And even within that there are varying degrees of severity.

    The point is this -if you're going down an arbitrary road like this with catch-all sentences (i.e. death) for crimes which intrinsically have a whole spectrum of severity, on a moral level alone that's a minefield.


    Funnily enough, i actually loosely know 2 people sentenced to death in Ireland. Commuted to life in the end. They were young when they committed their crime (murder). There is no defence to murder, certainly not age. And whether life imprisonment should mean life is another matter again. This might be hard for some to read but, to my mind, they are good people. I wasn't born when they did what they did and i can only judge a person or people by my interactions with them. But they are intrinsically good people.

    The death penalty effectively means 1 mistake could cost you your life. None of us when we are born come into this world consciously intent on committing murder, rape or any other serious crimes. If and when they happen they deserve to be punished.

    If we seek to punish by taking a life then we're acknowledging as a people that redemption is not possible. That it's not possible to repent and to change. We all make mistakes in this life and unfortunately some peoples mistakes end up ruining their own lives and often those of others. Victims of murder will never have the opportunity to live on and to change. But those left behind can.

    I'm always fascinated watching this video. Jo Berry,whose father died in an IRA bomb, discussing meeting the man who killed her father. Like anyone else, if someone killed my father my initial reaction would be wanting them dead. The likes of this woman remind us that humanity can rise above it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coljnvVH18o

    That's a really fantastic post.


  • #875
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    catallus wrote: »
    yeah.

    and?

    And would you be delighted that all those innocent people would have been murdered, just to please your archaic craving for blood lust?


  • #876
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    catallus wrote: »
    And by the way, I could not care less what you read or watch; you can do your own thing; we are all of us led ultimately by our own lights, and that is the most basic responsibility of all.

    Well, I care when someone tells me to get a real understanding of humanity to watch a film.

    Which one did you have in mind? Back to the Future? The Sound of Music? Avatar?


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  • #877
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    No this is why

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

    Life in prison is the best


  • #878
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,006 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    Was Hitler a murderer?
    yes
    epluribusunum wrote: »
    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty?
    no

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #879
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Love2u wrote: »
    If a "criminal doesn't have the right to kill" why would we have the right to kill through the death penalty! ?? This thread is getting ridiculous now.

    ....??
    yes i know... that is my point
    i'm argueing against Death Penalty..


  • #880
    Love2u
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Love2u


    wprathead wrote: »
    ....??
    yes i know... that is my point
    i'm argueing against Death Penalty..

    Oops!! Sorry wprathead. :)


  • #881
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    Love2u wrote: »
    Oops!! Sorry wprathead. :)

    Nothing gets past you.

    Eejit: A Scot and Irish word for idiot.

    The person is on your side, and you do not even realize it. :confused:

    Anyway who rebuts with "yawn, boring" to logic and then does not know who is on their side or not- when clearly they have stated their point- is by the definition an eejit.

    Something tells me you had to sit next time to the smart kids in class...:D


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  • #882
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    Nothing gets past you.

    Eejit: A Scot and Irish word for idiot.

    The person is on your side, and you do not even realize it. :confused:

    Anyway who rebuts with "yawn, boring" to logic and then does not know who is on their side or not- when clearly they have stated their point- is by the definition an eejit.

    Something tells me you had to sit next time to the smart kids in class...:D

    Did you find my answer yet?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #883
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Did you find my answer yet?

    So far, end of the road is the only person who believes Hitler did not deserve the death penalty if captured. Everyone else is silent.

    Although he is a psychopath, I respect his independent thinking- something that has escaped you and may be hard to reclaim. I wish you the best of luck. And you should also work on your unoriginal sarcasm.


  • #884
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    So far, end of the road is the only person who believes Hitler deserved the death penalty is captured. Everyone else is silent.

    Although he is a psychopath, I respect his independent thinking- something that has escaped you and may be hard to reclaim. I wish you the best of luck. And you should also work on your unoriginal sarcasm.

    No, he wasn't, there were three of us.

    In post number 731, I rendered your question irrelevant. I say so because we're talking about Hitler, or Nazi Germany, or the 1940s; we were talkin abotu Ireland now.

    I oppose the death penalty on three counts, all of which I have stated numerous times in this thread:
    1 - Fallability.
    2 - Cost (both of appeals and leaving the EU).
    3 - Pointlessness.

    "Was Hitler a murderer?" does not address any of these three points in the same way "how would you feel if you mother/wife/girlfriend/child was raped and murdered?" does not engage me, and is therefore a pointless, strawman argument.

    If you wish to chat about my views on moral ehtics and Nazism, fine - but start a new thread before doing so, so we can keep these issues sepearte.

    Namloc1980 nad osaruran also replied to your post (as you well know).

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #885
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    So far, end of the road is the only person who believes Hitler deserved the death penalty is captured. Everyone else is silent.

    No, he wasn't, there were three of us.

    In post number 731, I rendered your question irrelevant. I say so because we're not talking about Hitler, or Nazi Germany, or the 1940s; we were talking about Ireland and now.

    I oppose the death penalty on three counts, all of which I have stated numerous times in this thread:
    1 - Fallability.
    2 - Cost (both of appeals and leaving the EU).
    3 - Pointlessness.

    "Was Hitler a murderer?" does not address any of these three points in the same way "how would you feel if you mother/wife/girlfriend/child was raped and murdered?" does not engage me, and is therefore a pointless, strawman argument.

    If you wish to chat about my views on moral ehtics and Nazism, fine - but start a new thread before doing so, so we can keep these issues sepearte.

    Namloc1980 nad osaruran also replied to your post (as you well know).

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #886
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    The death penalty is an easy out for a perpetrator. I believe the ultimate punishment for a human being is whole life in prison, by far.

    The death penalty is also an action of supreme hypocrisy for a democracy that opposes killing.

    So on those two counts, I oppose any possibility of bring the death penalty to Ireland or any other country.


  • #887
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    No, he wasn't, there were three of us.

    In post number 731, I rendered your question irrelevant. I say so because we're not talking about Hitler, or Nazi Germany, or the 1940s; we were talking about Ireland and now.

    I oppose the death penalty on three counts, all of which I have stated numerous times in this thread:
    1 - Fallability.
    2 - Cost (both of appeals and leaving the EU).
    3 - Pointlessness.

    "Was Hitler a murderer?" does not address any of these three points in the same way "how would you feel if you mother/wife/girlfriend/child was raped and murdered?" does not engage me, and is therefore a pointless, strawman argument.

    If you wish to chat about my views on moral ehtics and Nazism, fine - but start a new thread before doing so, so we can keep these issues sepearte.

    Namloc1980 nad osaruran also replied to your post (as you well know).

    So a murder in the 1940s differs than a murder now? Either way somebody dies, how does time and space effect the act of killing someone? Well, it does not. It is irrelevant to you because you think he deserved the death penalty. It is either a yes or a no. Not irrelevant, you look like a coward when you avoid a question that is clearly of relevance but does not support your pitiable argument.

    And the others did not address the point, but just supported end of the road. I need you to answer yes or no. So far we only have one declared psychopath on this thread, feel free to join him. Or, think for yourself and answer the question.

    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty?


  • #888
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,767 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    So far, end of the road is the only person who believes Hitler did not deserve the death penalty if captured. Everyone else is silent.

    Although he is a psychopath, I respect his independent thinking- something that has escaped you and may be hard to reclaim. I wish you the best of luck. And you should also work on your unoriginal sarcasm.

    Eh....I answered you pages back and said the death penalty is wrong full stop. You chose to ignore it.


  • #889
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Eh....I answered you pages back and said the death penalty is wrong full stop. You chose to ignore it.

    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty? Yes or a no.

    Do not evade it by saying you disagree with the death penalty as a whole, answer this specific question.


  • #890
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    So a murder in the 1940s differs than a murder now? Either way somebody dies, how does time and space effect the act of killing someone? Well, it does not. It is irrelevant to you because you think he deserved the death penalty. It is either a yes or a no. Not irrelevant, you look like a coward when you avoid a question that is clearly of relevance but does not support your pitiable argument.

    And the others did not address the point, but just supported end of the road. I need you to answer yes or no. So far we only have one declared psychopath on this thread, feel free to join him. Or, think for yourself and answer the question.

    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty?
    calling people a psychopath because they oppose death penalty? really?
    why are you obsesed with hitler? read the thread title? is irrelevant


  • #891
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    wprathead wrote: »
    calling people a psychopath because they oppose death penalty? really?
    why are you obsesed with hitler? read the thread title? is irrelevant

    Did Hitler deserve it?


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  • #892
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    So a murder in the 1940s differs than a murder now? Either way somebody dies, how does time and space effect the act of killing someone? Well, it does not. It is irrelevant to you because you think he deserved the death penalty. It is either a yes or a no. Not irrelevant, you look like a coward when you avoid a question that is clearly of relevance but does not support your pitiable argument.

    And the others did not address the point, but just supported end of the road. I need you to answer yes or no. So far we only have one declared psychopath on this thread, feel free to join him. Or, think for yourself and answer the question.

    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty?

    On which grounds do wish me to answer?

    Infallablity (there's a whole philosophy debate on this one, and this is not the thread)
    Cost the State too much (:confused:)
    or
    Pointlessness (he ws already dead - what you going to do, fry his courpse?)

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #893
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    Did Hitler deserve it?

    what you hoping to achieve by getting an answer?


  • #894
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,767 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    epluribusunum wrote: »
    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty? Yes or a no.

    Do not evade it by saying you disagree with the death penalty as a whole, answer this specific question.

    No.

    And you seem to have a problem with people who oppose your vengeful bloodlust and who oppose the death penalty. Whether it be Adolf Hitler (who you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with) or some of the thousands of people murdered by the Chinese State annually, killing is wrong and killing humans in the name of justice is just bizarre.


  • #895
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    On which grounds do wish me to answer?

    Infallablity (there's a whole philosophy debate on this one, and this is not the thread)
    Cost the State too much (:confused:)
    or
    Pointlessness (he ws already dead - what you going to do, fry his courpse?)

    The entire thread is hypothetical Princess. This is called debate, we debate things to find solutions. Now, Princess I will let you redeem yourself and I will try to stop toying with your intelligence or lack thereof- just answer the question. It is quite simple yes or no.

    A yes or a no.

    Did Hitler deserve the death penalty, after doing what he did, if captured?

    I think I may know why you are making awful attempts at avoiding it...


  • #896
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    wprathead wrote: »
    what you hoping to achieve by getting an answer?

    If you answer I will show you. Did Hitler deserve the death penalty?


  • #897
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,767 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    wprathead wrote: »
    what you hoping to achieve by getting an answer?

    I suspect he'll then make the point that if you think Hitler didn't deserve the death penalty and you oppose the death penalty outright then you're a Nazi sympathizer. I mean it's the natural progression of his "argument": Anti-death penalty advocate = pro-Nazi goose-stepping SS goon. I bet I'm right.


  • #898
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    No.

    And you seem to have a problem with people who oppose your vengeful bloodlust and who oppose the death penalty. Whether it be Adolf Hitler (who you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with) or some of the thousands of people murdered by the Chinese State annually, killing is wrong and killing humans in the name of justice is just bizarre.

    Okay, so far we have 2. Namloc, and end of the road. I will address that after I am done with Princess- I want her to learn how to think independently.


  • #899
    epluribusunum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭epluribusunum


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    I suspect he'll then make the point that if you think Hitler didn't deserve the death penalty and you oppose the death penalty outright then you're a Nazi sympathizer. I mean it's the natural progression of his "argument": Anti-death penalty advocate = pro-Nazi goose-stepping SS goon. I bet I'm right.

    Nope. Be patient and I will wait until Princess answers. We are going on 48 hours now...


  • #900
    Cedrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    catallus wrote: »
    It is 100% effective. It prevents a criminal from re-offending.
    ........................

    Replacing an electrical fuse with a nail prevents the fuse from blowing ever again, but solves nothing and will usually exacerbate the problem.

    Likewise, executing one offender will remove one reoffender, but do nothing to stop the next scrote who, faced with a death sentence for one crime, has no disincentive to stop offending.


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  • #901
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Cedrus wrote: »
    Replacing an electrical fuse with a nail prevents the fuse from blowing ever again, but solves nothing and will usually exacerbate the problem.

    Likewise, executing one offender will remove one reoffender, but do nothing to stop the next scrote who, faced with a death sentence for one crime, has no disincentive to stop offending.

    You're over-analyzing the whole thing.

    The next scrote doesn't have any incentive to stop offending as things stand.


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