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Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

  • 08-08-2013 01:09PM
    #1
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Under the NTA's new implementation plan for 2013 to 2018 a major element seems to be the introduction of three BRT routes:

    - Swords / Airport to City Center
    - Blanchardstown to N11 (UCD)
    - Clongriffin to Tallaght

    However there seem to be some very interesting elements to this plan. The biggest thing seems to be that it won't be Dublin Bus who will be designing and operating this! The BRT routes are being designed by the RPA and according to the 2012 RPA report they expect to operate it and it is also expected to have unique branding.

    They also seems to be going out of their way to fix many of the issues that plague DB:

    - Each BRT bus will have a minimum of three double doors, preferably five!
    - All doors will be used at all stops to reduce dwell times.
    - Luas style off bus ticketing, again to reduce dwell times.
    - Articulated single decker to be used.
    - High quality bus stops to enable wheelchair accessible wheelchair use.
    - Audio and visual stop announcements.

    They don't mention it, but I also wonder if it will operate to 12:30 like Luas and perhaps even all night (would be particularly good for the Airport BRT).

    The other interesting aspect of this is its effect on DB, if they aren't operating it. We have heard rumours that come 2014 DB might lose 10% of it's routes to private operators. But looking at these new BRT routes, they could easily add up to DB losing 10% or more of it's busiest routes! For instance the airport BRT looks like it would eliminate the need for most of the north side 16 and 41's and would probably also highly impact the 747 (and maybe Aircoach).

    Interesting times ahead.


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Comments

  • #2
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I read the DB report a while back regarding the selection of routes for BRT. First of all, I'm very happy to see BRT coming to Dublin.

    I'm surprised that the UCD route will not go all the way to Foxrock Church, or even Stillorgan. Considering that the other lines will extend way out into the suburbs, this one strikes me as being a bit stunted.

    BRT isn't really a prescriptive definition, but rather a continuum of measures. As has been described by Jarrett Walker (excellent blog/book at www.humantransit.com) BRT can be seen as blurring the line between busses and trams. I would hope that the NTA aim high with their list of BRT measures. Route selection and implementation through the city centre will be very important.

    On the ticketing front, I really really hope they don't come up with separate tariffs for this. Further to the point above about blurring the line between bus and tram, I would hope that the NTA is going to move in the direction of streamlining bus, BRT and Luas fares either through a citywide zone / pay-per-km / flat-fare system, applicable to all three modes. (Ideally, Dart would be incorporated too.) Considering that there will be a huge level of integration with existing bus services through transfers, and that there will only be three lines, it would be ridiculous to have a separate fare system for BRT.


  • #3
    MrDerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭MrDerp


    There was a very successful version of this in Vancouver when I spent a summer there, called the B-Line. It was bendy buses, running very frequently, stopping every 12 or so blocks, as opposed to every 4 for the regular buses (I may be fuzzy on the detail here). It connected with the skytrain (mono-rail) and other such services, and had UBC university as a terminus (a natural terminus given it's beside the water)

    It's to be welcomed, particularly if privately run to a real schedule.


  • #4
    EricPraline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    This is interesting OP. Any links to the proposed routes? Does this have any similarity to the Blue Line BRT that was briefly mooted in 2010 for Sandyford to Vincent's? The idea seemed to disappear off the radar pretty quickly afaik.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rapid-bus-network-for-capital-26775531.html

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056056620


  • #5
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    The Blanchardstown (/castleknock) proposals are to be welcomed.

    That area has the population of more than a number of Irish counties (more than Sligo county for instance) YET its connection to the outside world is patchy at best. Theres all sorts of duplicate routes sharing parts of the same route into town AND are stopping every 100yards to let on and off people living in the areas in between.

    The success of the few expresso services which are normally jammed to the rafters shows that the people want a fast way to town. Not all routes can remain going to town like they do now, but if you had a local service running round the estates to drop you the 5 minutes to a transfer hub, and then a really speedy trip to the centre then people would be happy to make a change as their overall journey would be a fraction of what it was before.

    EDIT: heres a video of a BRT in England which is more than simply a bus lane, its not far off the paris metro the way theres a pair of concrete strips ran on by wheeled vehicles!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnpewuRupgE
    You could possibly put such a track through the Phoenix Park with minimal impact and linking in Blanchardstown to Heuston and then onto the centre in a few minutes along the quays.


  • #6
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    EricPraline wrote: »
    This is interesting OP. Any links to the proposed routes?

    You can find the full report, including possible routes here:

    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/projects-schemes/transport-projects/bus-rapid-transit-brt/

    Since this report, the Airport/Swords to City Center route has been added.

    The Airport is a pretty interesting and obvious one, but it will need to deal with the major bottleneck that the Cat & Cage is in Drumcondra.

    I'm also assuming that on this route it will simply have to use the existing bus lanes (perhaps better marked out) but shared with all the other bus companies, taxis and bikes.

    So it is unlikely to be fully segregated, I presume the benefits will be:

    - Automated priority at traffic lights

    Could also help at the cat & cage with traffic being stopped further back so that a BRT bus can fly by.

    - Less Bus stops, more direct route

    - Multi door usage, reducing dwell times

    - Better bus stop quality

    - Off bus ticketing

    So it would be an improvement over the existing 16/41 services and might even be very close to the 747, but certainly no tram or Metro.


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  • #7
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,154 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    EDIT: heres a video of a BRT in England which is more than simply a bus lane, its not far off the paris metro the way theres a pair of concrete strips ran on by wheeled vehicles!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnpewuRupgE
    You could possibly put such a track through the Phoenix Park with minimal impact and linking in Blanchardstown to Heuston and then onto the centre in a few minutes along the quays.

    That is a guided busway which is not what is being proposed here (sadly) and afaik that is the longest one currently in existence.

    Similar to the Luas green line it uses a former rail alignment that was mainly still intact which gave a very big headstart on a similar type of project being run on a newly built alignment.

    Despite that it was years late and way over budget and is now the subject of legal action between the local authority and construction company.

    It is fair to say a lot of people would have preferred if the railway line had been re-instated, the shorter southern section in particular was an issue as it uses part of the former Cambridge-Oxford rail line for which there is a project to re-open building momentum.

    Although the busway itself is quite impressive it runs through mostly rural land and unfortunately ends 2 miles outside Cambridge itself so the buses have to mix with traffic on the busiest and slowest part of their journey.

    It is worth pointing out that the services are operated by standard off the shelf buses with the addition of the guide wheels, both single and double decks are used and in common with almost all buses operated in the UK outside of London they are all single door. 2 different bus companies operate the services and while there are some types of multi-operator tickets available many single operator tickets are offered.


  • #8
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,487 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    NTA rep on Cooper is implying its just really proper bus lanes (30 years late) with real city buses (also very late) rather than "real" BRT


  • #9
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    MYOB wrote: »
    NTA rep on Cooper is implying its just really proper bus lanes (30 years late) with real city buses (also very late) rather than "real" BRT

    Yes, that is my feeling too having read the report.

    It doesn't look like it will have real segregation, the road space simply doesn't exist along much of these proposed routes.

    So it is more bus services finally done right, then truly segregated BRT.

    However what is interesting about all this, is that it seems to be taking so many bus routes out of the control of DB.

    And this is to be welcomed, it can be used as a model to show how a well designed and operated bus service can look like. I look forward to it.


  • #10
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    bk wrote: »
    However what is interesting about all this, is that it seems to be taking so many bus routes out of the control of DB.

    And this is to be welcomed, it can be used as a model to show how a well designed and operated bus service can look like.

    I wonder if this is the primary reason for the proposal. I mean, what is to stop them just bringing it in piecemeal as part of the general bus services? Nothing. But by making a big deal of 'new improved' BRT they can start anew. Kinda like the way the Luas was given to the RPA instead of CIE...


  • #11
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 12,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Another (proper) BRT scheme in the uk here:
    http://www3.hants.gov.uk/eclipse

    That uses standard single decker buses though, with one door, but they're fitted out to a much higher standard than your average single decker bus, with Wifi, LCD information screens, destination display on the back as well as front and side of the bus and leather seats and is due to be extended in the near future.

    Photos here:
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150554442707897.383576.206942307896&type=3
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150719351862897.404435.206942307896&type=3

    The only other scheme I can think of that is similar, is the FTRMetro scheme in Swansea which uses articulated vehicles with two sets of doors, the driver is totally separate from the passengers and you just walk on and a conductor will sell you tickets and check your tickets, no driver interaction means dwell time is very very short. It has traffic priority.

    Info:
    http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=FTR+Swansea
    http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/south_west_wales/journey_planning/ftr/

    However they tried thee same in Leeds an York and it didn't work out, so if artics are going to be use, they need to be put on suitable street infrastructure or it simply won't work.


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  • #12
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,487 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The FTR buses look HIDEOUS (particularly in Leeds), if that can be deemed a good enough reason for a mark against them.


  • #13
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 12,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Although if they stand out and people call them that rather than an average bus, it means the marketing is working somewhat, since you've called it an FTR rather than a bus and that is exactly what the marketing people wanted I suspect - it means it's being noticed, when if it was a normal bus and normal livery it would blend into the background.


  • #14
    That username is already in use.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭That username is already in use.


    Surprised they're terminating at UCD and not Loughlinstown/Cherrywood. The N11 is perfect for a BRT.


  • #15
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    BRT could work really well in Dublin, but it needs
    • To be fully segregated, preferably with more than just paint as the barrier
    • Luas-like stops, with ticket machines, and all pre-pay tickets
    • Multi-door buses
    • Better than 10 minute frequencies

    Also, the Blanchardstown to UCD route should continue through UCD and head out to Dundrum via Goatstown to link up with the Luas and town centre.


  • #16
    theSHU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭theSHU


    The Navan Road QBC project disapeared off the radar in the last couple of years.


  • #17
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    NTA rep on Cooper is implying its just really proper bus lanes (30 years late) with real city buses (also very late) rather than "real" BRT

    It was Hugh Creegan, NTA's deputy chief executive. In fairness, I don't think he was strictly talking about BRT -- they are planning widespread bus improvements and he seems to be talking generally.

    The Last Word listen back is here and it starts at around 9mins in.

    I'm actually shocked by how much media coverage the new plan has got when 2030 got less than feck all.


  • #18
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    monument wrote: »
    I'm actually shocked by how much media coverage the new plan has got when 2030 got less than feck all.

    Busses are quite topical at the moment. It's a great time to suggest a move away from Dublin Bus.


  • #19
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    This is what the report actually says about BRT:

    6.7 Bus Rapid Transit
    6.7.1 Description

    Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is a high-quality bus based transit system that delivers fast, comfortable, and cost-effective urban mobility through the provision of segregated right-of-way infrastructure, rapid and frequent operations and excellence in marketing and customer service. It applies to public transportation systems that use buses to provide a service with higher speeds and quality of service than traditional bus services, and is achieved by making improvements to the existing road infrastructure, the vehicles and the scheduling. Aspects such as vehicle, station layout, ticketing, branding and intelligent transport systems are all integrated to deliver an attractive and modern transport system.

    A successful BRT scheme has a number of essential components which, taken together, form a system that offers passengers a high level of service. The key elements of a BRT system are:
    • Vehicle;
    • Branding;
    • Ticketing;
    • Station stops;
    • Passenger Facilities; and
    • Segregation (where possible) and Priority (where full segregation is not possible).

    This high quality integrated public transport mode uses buses on roadways or dedicated lanes to transport passengers quickly and efficiently to their destinations, while offering the flexibility and adaptability to meet transport demands. The goal is to approach the service quality of light rail transit while still enjoying the very significant saving in investment costs that bus transit is capable of delivering. Generally, BRT infrastructure costs are in the order of one third to one quarter of that of light rail schemes.

    Ideally, BRT operates with full segregation from other traffic, but a key benefit is its flexibility to mix with other traffic on existing roads where full segregation is not readily achievable. BRT systems also allow the option for other buses to benefit from using sections of the BRT route.

    BRT schemes are being successfully developed and operated as part of integrated public transport solutions in an increasing number of cities across the world. In Europe, there are BRT schemes running in several countries, with France having lines in Nantes and Rouen, while in the UK BRT services are operating in Swansea and Cambridge. In South America and the United States, BRT is well established while it is becoming the public transport mode of choice in numerous cities in Asia and Africa.

    6.7.2 Analysis
    The Authority published a report in October 2012, “Bus Rapid Transit - Core Dublin Network”, setting out two cross city routes for development as BRT
    schemes. These are:
    • Blanchardstown to N11 (UCD); and
    • Clongriffin to Tallaght.

    The report recommended the progression of these two routes with further work being required to establish the exact routes and terminal points.

    In addition, that report also examined the potential for BRT to serve the Swords / Airport to City Centre corridor. It identified that while BRT does not have sufficient capacity to serve this link over the longer term, it would provide an interim transport solution in the shorter term, pending the development of a higher capacity rail solution, such as a metro, on
    this corridor. It would complement any rail based solution in the long term, and continue to perform strongly in terms of passenger usage.

    Further work carried out since the publication of that report has confirmed the feasibility and likely usage of a BRT from Swords / Airport to City Centre.

    6.7.3 Proposals

    It is proposed to progress the development of three
    BRT routes as part of this Plan. These are:
    • Swords / Airport to City Centre;
    • Blanchardstown to N11 (UCD); and
    • Clongriffin to Tallaght.

    It is envisaged that planning consent will be achieved for each of these projects in the early years of the Plan.

    Subsequent implementation of these schemes will be progressed on an incremental basis in accordance with available funding.


  • #20
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Aard wrote: »
    I wonder if this is the primary reason for the proposal. I mean, what is to stop them just bringing it in piecemeal as part of the general bus services? Nothing. But by making a big deal of 'new improved' BRT they can start anew. Kinda like the way the Luas was given to the RPA instead of CIE...
    NTA wrote:
    Subsequent implementation of these schemes will be progressed on an incremental basis in accordance with available funding.

    This is interesting -- unlike Luas, even if a route was to be "fully" segregated, it could be done in stages.
    theSHU wrote: »
    The Navan Road QBC project disapeared off the radar in the last couple of years.

    Rightly so, the plans were a joke and would have resulted in cyclists holding up buses and lots of aggro between the two modes.
    bk wrote: »
    It doesn't look like it will have real segregation, the road space simply doesn't exist along much of these proposed routes.

    Loads of space, it's just about what you want to do with it.


  • #21
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,740 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    If these are to be semi express routes on main trunk bus lanes what are they going to do about normal services slowing them down?
    For the likes of the n11 you either have to loose a traffic lane to accommodate it or have it conflicting with slower buses a lot. It'll be interesting to see the proposed solution to this.


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  • #22
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    The QBCs and "CitySwift" were supposed to be Dublin Bus's frequent transit. They weren't.

    How will "bus rapid transit" without dedicated busways be anything other than buses mixing it with traffic at crucial intersections like everything else? I smell bullshyte in this proposal. Watch the papers go doolally for this as the "solution" to Dublin traffic when plainly it won't be.


  • #23
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,391 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Some people jump on BRT as giving you LRT for half the money. As long as expectations are realistic it could be a goer though. Finding new ways to push buses into "An Lar" will only go so far too. Being RPA buses I wonder will they try and use some Luas trackage and call it an "interline" in order to leverage existing stations and ticket infrastructure?

    I'd like to see a segregated BRT in part of the Metro West alignment to deliver near term interconnections between the various LRT and heavy rail services - probably a far closer match to realistic volumes than the Metro was anyway.


  • #24
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    dowlingm wrote: »
    I'd like to see a segregated BRT in part of the Metro West alignment to deliver near term interconnections between the various LRT and heavy rail services - probably a far closer match to realistic volumes than the Metro was anyway.

    I like this idea also and I think there is scope for such an implementation in West Dublin.


  • #25
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Dublin was a horse and cart designed city, there's really no point in introducing another bus lane based public transport system unless the commitment is there to maintain and police it. The current system as "policed" by AGS is a joke, the only solution is segregated busways for buses and EVs only. If this has to be done at the expense of road space for other vehicles and provision of footpath based cycleways then so be it, we either want an efficient public transport system or we don't, no more half measures. Maybe improve and expand the traffic warden service with a motorcycle branch, properly equipped with cameras etc. and empowered to police bus lanes, at the same time, increase the fines to levels which will deter the BMW set, IMO the most persistent offenders.


  • #26
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    bmaxi wrote: »
    ........... at the same time, increase the fines to levels which will deter the BMW set, IMO the most persistent offenders.

    I thought BMW cars were exempt from the traffic laws in Dublin. (This is based on observing just how many BMW drivers ignore the traffic regulations and how few actually observe them).


  • #27
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,487 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    bmaxi wrote: »
    for buses and EVs only. .

    I couldn't disagree more strongly with this.

    EVs as they currently stand are impractical for proper use - their existance is for people who don't need a car and could easily cope with public transport.

    Giving EVs access to bus lanes will end up taking people off those buses and nothing more.


  • #28
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    MYOB wrote: »
    I couldn't disagree more strongly with this.

    EVs as they currently stand are impractical for proper use - their existance is for people who don't need a car and could easily cope with public transport.

    Giving EVs access to bus lanes will end up taking people off those buses and nothing more.
    I think we're at cross purposes here, when I say EVs I mean emergency vehicles, Ambulance, Fire, Garda etc. Maybe I shouldn't have been lazy.


  • #29
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,487 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    bmaxi wrote: »
    I think we're at cross purposes here, when I say EVs I mean emergency vehicles, Ambulance, Fire, Garda etc. Maybe I shouldn't have been lazy.

    EV is generally used to mean Electric Vehicle these days.


  • #30
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I thought BMW cars were exempt from the traffic laws in Dublin.
    So do their owners. Not exclusively BMWs, just that particular sector of the population with the "I'm too important to be governed by the plebs' rules" attitude.


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  • #31
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    MYOB wrote: »
    EV is generally used to mean Electric Vehicle these days.

    Perish the thought, the work of the devil.


This discussion has been closed.
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