Urban legend or element of truth?

unkel · 02-08-2013 12:02AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This comes up every time re learning to drive. What exactly is so special about a motorway that you need to learn?

Not much here in Ireland where most vehicles, including lorries do about 90km/h on motorways

Very different story on motorways on the continent though

02-08-2013 01:02AM

People have a lot to say about older drivers, but in fairness they may be an inconvenient and annoying on the road but they are not causing the absolute carnage on the roads.

Rather than implement something like this, they should be targeting dangerous young drivers.

We all know of boy racers using the roads as racetracks. It is these types of drivers that should come into the spotlight more.

Cookie_Monster · 02-08-2013 05:25AM

salonfire wrote: »

People have a lot to say about older drivers, but in fairness they may be an inconvenient and annoying on the road but they are not causing the absolute carnage on the roads.

.

interestingly there was a piece in the local paper about this recently. NZ now, not Ireland so not 100% relevant but...

New Zealand Transport Agency statistics show nationally drivers over the age of 65 were involved in 45 fatal and 219 serious injury crashes in 2008. The numbers increased to 59 fatal and 228 serious injury accidents in 2012.

the above compares to 243 total deaths in 2009* (18.5%) and 166 in 2012 (35%)
* - oldest easily available
http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/8960079/Crashes-involving-elderly-on-the-rise

creedp · 02-08-2013 10:22AM

vitani wrote: »

If it would teach people how to drive properly at roundabouts, I'd be all for it.

You can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink! Plenty people know how to drive properly but are simply too stubborn and lazy to do it. How many times do you see people turn on their lights when they spot a garda car? How many people drive around with bald tyres and blown bulbs? Is it possible they don't realise this is wrong and dangerous and if they were though otherwise they wouldn't act in this way? Some people actually think that driving training will fix all the ills of the driving world .. I suppose there is nothing wrong with being a glass half full person?

spank_inferno · 02-08-2013 10:54AM

It should happen.

But it won't as it would not be popular among those who vote.

dr.fuzzenstein · 02-08-2013 10:57AM

the_syco wrote: »

What would happen if one were to fail the test? As Learner drivers still drive about, how will the Gardai view someone who has failed their retest?

Absolutely nothing, sure aren't we all Entitled To Be On The Road? Couple that with I Know How To Drive and you see the difficulty here.
I can't see a single person either changing their behaviour or being put off the road.
If the government tried to enforce it? Well, remember what happened when they tried taking medical cards of millionaire pensioners?
The single biggest problem in this country is a culture of God Given Entitlement. And to change that it would take someone with balls like Maggie Thatcher, because it is very difficult to take a lollipop of a child that has been spoilt rotten for years.

H3llR4iser · 02-08-2013 12:37PM

Gosub wrote: »

Of course it's always the older driver that's dangerous... but wait... the statistics show that young males are the most often involved in serious accidents. It would seem the old adage still holds true: the young know everything and are never, ever, wrong.

Most of the dangerous driving I see on the road is by young men and women, often with young children in the car. The cars cruising in lane 2 of 3 are normally the younger driver. I have to move from lane 1 to lane 3 to pass and then return to lane 1. A lot of these drivers have passed their test in the last 5 years. The trouble is, they know they should be in lane 1, but couldn't be arsed to do it right. This isn't restricted to Ireland by the way.

Over my driving life I have passed several tests and have the ink on my licence to prove it. All were passed first time. I didn't get a 'lucky bag' licence. I have never had an accident, nor, to the best of my knowledge, have I caused one. I earned my first full licence 41 years ago.

The truth is that very few people take pride in their driving. It's all too sloppy. This isn't an age issue, it's a standards issue. We're all responsible for the standard of our driving. A seriously big percentage of our drivers don't seem to care how they drive, even if they do know how to do it right.

I totally agree with everything, except maybe the mention of statistics which only tell half the truth,1 as "young males" is also the age group that drive the longest mileages, therefore mathematically more likely to get into an accident.

Observation would suggest that indeed, as you say, the issue is not really about older drivers but well spread through the population.

The very first thing that comes to my mind is that, no matter what people say, there are tons and tons of drivers who never bothered sitting their test - they got one of the "infinite provisionals" years ago and keep driving on them. I personally know quite a few, and was initially in disbelief at this fact - these people actually have no driving license, period, and keep driving around like it's normal. Absolutely unheard of in continental EU.

I drove in many places and I also agree the issues aren't limited to Ireland - but there are some issues that are peculiar: As I said before, most Irish drivers seem to try and apply the concept and rules to the letter, without awareness of the situation they are in. They go through green lights without paying attention to the rest of the junction, hammer on the horn and don't even think about slowing down if a car pulls out of a stop/yield sign where it shouldn't have, hog the entire line of cars behind them because "you don't stop in a yellow box", even if they have to turn right.

Added to this, there is a stupid mentality that has been ingrained in a lot of people with the "speed kills" campaigns of the last few years: "I do not speed, therefore I am a safe driver".

If you don't speed but hog lanes where you shouldn't be, have the awareness of a drunken tree and the reflexes of a sloth on valium, then you are NOT a safe driver, regardless of your age.

The problem with "retesting" is that the focus would be wrong, just as the current driving lessons/exam is (not only in Ireland, mind you). Assessing that somebody is able to drive straight, parallel park and "reverse around a corner" only proves the person has a hang of the car controls and a bare understanding of signals and lights; It might be ok for a beginner, but it's something an experience driver will easily fool...

Joe 90 · 02-08-2013 12:40PM

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

You can go back a decade there. My Dad got his licence that way, before I was born, so sometime in the 60's.

As for re-testing, great idea. To put the positive spin on it, it will improve driving standards in the country, therefore in the long term lowering insurance costs.

In fact there would be two groups who have a full licence but who would not have had to do a test. People just a bit older than me, I'm 63, would not have had to do the test as it was only introduced in about 1965. Before that you sent off the form with £1 to the county council and got your licence back. As there was no checking what so ever, if you looked 17 when you were 15 you got your licence.

The other group are those who were on their second provisional licence at some point in about 1980 or 81. They could get a full licence.

The object of the exercise was to reduce the queue for driving tests. I don't know how long the wait was then but when I did it in 1967 I applied at Easter and did the test in September.

I suspect that the reason for the wait at the time I did the test was that examiners were badly paid. I remember reading an article in a paper which said the the examiners were so badly paid that they could not afford to run a car.

creedp · 02-08-2013 01:01PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The problem with "retesting" is that the focus would be wrong, just as the current driving lessons/exam is (not only in Ireland, mind you). Assessing that somebody is able to drive straight, parallel park and "reverse around a corner" only proves the person has a hang of the car controls and a bare understanding of signals and lights; It might be ok for a beginner, but it's something an experience driver will easily fool...

For me the problem with re-testing is that it assumes that if you can pass a re-test you are automatically a safer/better driver. Or putting it the other way those that never did a test/retest are automatically bad/unsafe drivers. Driving in Ireland clearly indicates that there are an awful lot of bad/unsafe drivers on the road - what proportion of them passed their test in the last 10 years? Even if you consider the fact that statistically young men are more likely to be involved in an accident - is this becasue they haven't passed their test? There is much more to safe driving that passing a test.

One of the key ways is enforcement - e.g. although the use of a mobile phone while driving is deemed to be extremely dangerous .. how many people do you regularly see on the phone and even texting while driving? Let's not worry though the solution is to force them to sit a re-test and then they would never engage in such a dangerous practice again because the tester would tell them that it was dangerous to do so.

wonski · 02-08-2013 01:09PM

Retesting someone who already passed a test? What's the purpose of that?
Who would manage the backlog of driving tests then?

All we need is Traffic Corps acting on the road and taking those who take a piss off the road. Not to mention that driving test is rather easy to pass, even bad driver will pass if he focuses enough.

I wouldn't like to waste my time to pass a test I already passed.
Should we also go back to school/uni/work courses etc and prove we still know enough to do our jobs?

Stupid idea.

wonski · 02-08-2013 01:13PM

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

You can go back a decade there. My Dad got his licence that way, before I was born, so sometime in the 60's.

As for re-testing, great idea. To put the positive spin on it, it will improve driving standards in the country, therefore in the long term lowering insurance costs.

Even if retesting happened, it would be at our expense - not theirs.
Lowering insurance costs??? Won't happen.

Red Crow · 02-08-2013 01:14PM

If I was changing the system i would introduce a theory exam that would have to be passed at the end of each licence term. It's no harm for everyone to have a refresher course. Garda enforcement would improve the quality of driving and serious offenders could be forced to take practical lessons to improve their driving skills and in serious cases be forced to resit their test totally.

I think persons over 70 should have to sit a practical retest every 2-3 years and should have to take a theory test during the same period.

I don't think the current system would be able to facilitate practical retests every 10 years or so. The test itself is part of the problem but its mostly down to poor enforcement by the Gardai.

Chimaera · 02-08-2013 01:15PM

There's a real problem here with the attitude that once you've passed the driving test you don't have to care about your driving any more. This is the biggest thing that retesting offers: it plants the idea that at some point in the future you're going to be back for another evaluation of your driving ability and skill.

The other bigger advantage (as I mentioned earlier) is that it provides for upskilling. Road layouts change, roadside technologies change. Cars change: how many of us learned to drive in cars with ABS or ESP for instance? Do we know how that technology works and what its limitations are?

Blaming lack of enforcement, etc is beside the point!! That's a separate issue. The main discussion here is whether stricter education and re-education of drivers is a good idea in and of itself. It's easy to blame external factors and write off the idea but that's just stupid IMO.

Would you be happy with a doctor deciding that once he finishes college he never has to open a medical textbook again? How about the mechanic servicing your car: is it ok if he decides he doesn't need to do any continuing education to update himself on the latest in vehicle technology? Arguing against the idea of continuing driver education is exactly the same as arguing that these professionals don't need to engage in continuing education.

creedp · 02-08-2013 01:28PM

Chimaera wrote: »

The other bigger advantage (as I mentioned earlier) is that it provides for upskilling. Road layouts change, roadside technologies change. Cars change: how many of us learned to drive in cars with ABS or ESP for instance? Do we know how that technology works and what its limitations are?

Changes introduced to cars have made then easier and safer to drive .. I don't think it is necessary to engage in training to be able to do something which is easier than it was before. By the way how do you train to use ABS more effectively - learn to press the brake pedal firmly when you want to stop and don't lift off your leg until you actually have stopped or reduced your speed to the required level. On that note, maybe we should all undergo an intensive training course on how to use a GPS system safely while on the move (as it would save an awful lot of messing when lads are trying to figure out where they are a precise point in time) or how about being able to adjust our modern climate controlled ventillation systems so we can safely see out through the windscreen. The more visibility we have the better from a safety perspective so we have sufficient warning to be able to stop in time with excessively bald tyres.

Sobanek · 02-08-2013 02:19PM

pcardin wrote: »

Amber on trafic lights means prepare to stop and not "go faster". Red means stop and not "first ten cars go faster and rest stop".

Actually means stop, unless it is unsafe to do so

Someone needs to be retested

Colonel Sanders · 02-08-2013 02:32PM

I've often discussed this. Would be in favour of a re-test before licence renewal.

However if there was actually enforcement of the actual rules of the road maybe we could improve standards that way

Duckjob · 02-08-2013 03:44PM

I'd imagine it would be an administrative nightmare, and the cost of the red-tape and then some would just get lumped onto motorists as per usual.

What they could do is introduce an audit system, like the revenue auditing businesses, where they randomly select people and retest them. If you fail, you dont get stripped of your licence immediately - maybe have 2nd chance to pass. If you've have accident history/penalty points you're more likely to be on their radar for selection.

Mc Love · 03-08-2013 11:29AM

Change in legislation would be need to be made - they went the wrong way about the learning permit too, if they wanted to bring it in, why do it half arsed and still allow the majority of L drivers to drive unaccompanied and also allow them drive away from a test center if they have failed their test?!

I know you'll have the folk that said, sure how will I learn to drive if I cant drive? Simples - do lessons with an instructor. Obviously in special circumstances like you need the car to go to work (unable to use local transport) or for work purposes, you'd have a pass to drive accompanied until you pass the test. I assume if you need the car for work - you'd already have a full licence (it's required).

dr.fuzzenstein · 03-08-2013 03:18PM

Mc Love wrote: »

Change in legislation would be need to be made - they went the wrong way about the learning permit too, if they wanted to bring it in, why do it half arsed and still allow the majority of L drivers to drive unaccompanied and also allow them drive away from a test center if they have failed their test?!

I know you'll have the folk that said, sure how will I learn to drive if I cant drive? Simples - do lessons with an instructor. Obviously in special circumstances like you need the car to go to work (unable to use local transport) or for work purposes, you'd have a pass to drive accompanied until you pass the test. I assume if you need the car for work - you'd already have a full licence (it's required).

That's how things have been done in this country for as long as I am here and for even longer before that.
Spend millions and millions on special advisers (I'd love that job, professional bullsh*tter who gets paid millions) and endless reports. Then let those reports gather dust for a few years, then, when they're out of date, they'll do it all again.
Then, 5 to 10 years later, some drunken politician on his booze soaked lunch quickly scribbles something onto a napkin, which then gets enacted into law. Or maybe he got a brown envelope to make some changes.
Irish politicians: Lazy, stupid, incompetent, drunk, corrupt, greedy, egotistical, ignorant, thick-headed and the Irish people, who are quite an intelligent, capable bunch, absolutely love them for that. Not only that, but will fanatically defend the Irish system citing dubious studies that show that those incompetent eejits in the Scandinavian countries always get it wrong and how the Irish system is so much better. That would explain why we're broke and they.re, well, not.
My theory is that the best and brightest are always forced to leave this country because of an ongoing economical crisis that has (with a brief exception in the early 2000's) rage since the 40's.
This leaves the field clear for the ignorant, inbred, well connected, rich and thick who don't have to leave, to rule the roost. So by now those grubs have burrowed so far into the log and have become so fat that is has become impossible to winkle them out, even with the biggest pin.
The only two solutions:
A: Leave and go to a proper, civilised country where talent, intelligence and ability actually count for something, or,
B: It's time for politicians to be used as decorations for the lampposts around the country. And the Irish are far too polite for that, or maybe they will do it to the English, but not their own parasitic brethren.
Anyway, that's today's rant.;)

gozunda · 03-08-2013 07:07PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's how things have been done in this country for as long as I am here and for even longer before that.
Spend millions and millions on special advisers (I'd love that job, professional bullsh*tter who gets paid millions) and endless reports. Then let those reports gather dust for a few years, then, when they're out of date, they'll do it all again.
Then, 5 to 10 years later, some drunken politician on his booze soaked lunch quickly scribbles something onto a napkin, which then gets enacted into law. Or maybe he got a brown envelope to make some changes.
Irish politicians: Lazy, stupid, incompetent, drunk, corrupt, greedy, egotistical, ignorant, thick-headed and the Irish people, who are quite an intelligent, capable bunch, absolutely love them for that. Not only that, but will fanatically defend the Irish system citing dubious studies that show that those incompetent eejits in the Scandinavian countries always get it wrong and how the Irish system is so much better. That would explain why we're broke and they.re, well, not.
My theory is that the best and brightest are always forced to leave this country because of an ongoing economical crisis that has (with a brief exception in the early 2000's) rage since the 40's.
This leaves the field clear for the ignorant, inbred, well connected, rich and thick who don't have to leave, to rule the roost. So by now those grubs have burrowed so far into the log and have become so fat that is has become impossible to winkle them out, even with the biggest pin.
The only two solutions:
A: Leave and go to a proper, civilised country where talent, intelligence and ability actually count for something, or,
B: It's time for politicians to be used as decorations for the lampposts around the country. And the Irish are far too polite for that, or maybe they will do it to the English, but not their own parasitic brethren.
Anyway, that's today's rant.;)

Date & time of uprising please? I wanna be on the Lamppost decoration platoon...

Urban legend or element of truth?

Comments